Flickering the Lights in Glass' House (Castlevania Downgrades, 1/???)

[Antvasima]

Exceptions can be given for posting genuinely helpful revisions while openly admitting where they came from, but this needs to be evaluated by our staff before any arguments are posted.

Just a note that this is the case here as far as I am aware.

 

[Theglassman12]

Alright, I'm back from my small break.

@Chariot190 Yeah and the lore with how dracula's soul and Soma's magic are one and the same with literally every single instance of souls empowering others with magical strength like in Grimoire of Souls where their ability to increase the stats of certain characters through magic is the evidence.

It never said that the other monsters cannot do it, that's the specific gimmick of the imp that it creates a special realm to attack, plus affecting magic isn't exclusive to that when anyone with curse/darkness powers can drain the magic of others. Plus the entire point of Dracula's castle being a spiritual world and stated numerous times to literally be his magic incarnate alongside everything in the world having magical essence through the glyphs is the proof that it's Universal.

The glyphs example is the most blatant example so you're just dodging around all of the main arguments that was used for the argument that it cross scales.

So you admit that they're both still spiritual attacks at the end of the day? Thanks for that

No I want people to actually pay attention to the arguments on why this cross scales in the first place. You admitting that this is indeed some form of soul hax but you questioning why everyone for some reason scales to this is just not paying attention to the main arguments on why this is universal to the series. That's literally how UES works and we have numerous examples of such.

It literally does when the game translates spiritual damage for the Imps to their magic being destroyed. Put two and two together, the magic and one's soul is the same because why else would spiritual damage be targeting magic and not the normal health pool? Everything else is evidence this cross scales because this is treated as a common thing in the franchise. This is no different than with DMC on how devil arms are capable of damaging the soul with explicit evidence of such or GoW with magic being tied to the soul and how they're treated as universal across different pantheons despite not being spoonfed that literally every single monster in either franchise can do so.

Those two different types of attacks are still labeled as spiritual attacks, meaning they still have one thing in common, they target someone spiritually, so this isn't specific to one move or the other.

How exactly would it be a weakness of the ability when you literally need to GoW QTE out of the attack? The most blatant in game example of resisting an ability that someone tries to do to affect you? Them breaking out of it by mashing out would imply they broke out of it through resisting its influence rather than it just being a weakness.

Yeah so you haven't played Grimoire of Souls because there's literally a basic type of zombie that can do this, they literally have those coated with dark magic that can curse and drain your magic. This also goes to literally every other monster that has some form of dark magic as darkness translates to curse (and in the lore it's literally from dracula's castle that they get this dark magic) which causes this in the first place.

It literally does, Dracula's soul and Soma's magic being the same, Dracula's castle being the manifestation of his magic and being stated to be a spiritual world, alongside everything in grimoire of souls with the weapon lore on souls enhancing magic and magic being directly tied to one's stats and the glyphs lore where everything and everyone in existence has magical essences in their very being is the evidence that this cross scales. This entire time you're arguing that it's tied to specific individuals and not everyone else when the imps, dracula's castle, soma's soul, grimoire's lore and everything about glyphs is why this is something common, The stuff with the imps and Magnus is the most blatant example of such.

I'm not even arguing about resistances, I'm arguing that his actual power is literally tied to his spiritual attacks, something literally described and blatantly stated to **** with a random vampire's soul.

If it's being contested where's the arguments about the glyphs or the nature of dracula's magic and the soul or the spiritual world stuff among many other things? You're not tackling the UES you're only tackling a subclass of examples where it's in your face that spiritual strikes is tied to magic.

 

[Theglassman12]

@Planck69 @UchihaSlayer96 @Nierre @Elizhaa any input on this thread would be helpful

 

[Planck69]

From what I've seen so far, I think glass's argument for the soul matters and most of the rest makes sense to me. I am neutral to Technological Manipulation removal though, there seems to be some genuine issues there regardless

 

[Topaz404]

Welcome back, Glass.
However, it would seem i must go back on my word to not get involved for the time being, because a new response dropped. Ill go ahead and leave it for you to look over before i go back to simply tallying votes- thank you for understanding

“Technology resistance there's literally items that characters like Jonathan and Charlotte have like the Eye for Decay, which is literally a scouter designed to track invisible walls, there's fact items like a neutron bomb that existed in the 17th century is a thing (so this whole "Castlevania is before modern day" argument means nothing when Neutron bombs existed back then in the series), alongside Positron gun that Soma can use, and all of these can still work in the hands of the heroes despite being in the influence of the castle. So yeah I'd argue the technology resistance should stay if they're able to have their own technology not get messed up by the castle's powers.”

Eye for Decay being modeled after a scouter doesn’t mean it’s literally a piece of sci-fi tech, Glass. It’s a cheeky Dragon Ball reference and that won’t change the fact that these games are more often than not set before the industrial revolution. Why wouldn’t you assume it’s just a magic item and not like. Some weird anachronistic space headband that functions precisely how it does in Dragon Ball? A neutron bomb is also like. A bomb? It wouldn’t be affected by the disruption of satellite images, because a bomb is not satellite images. Guns are also not satellite images, to be clear, so Soma’s positron gun would work just fine.

In case you think this is pedantic and it doesn’t matter because “technology hax is technology hax”, let me ask you to think of this in reverse for a bit. A character has a power that has only been shown to make bombs and guns stop working. However, he cannot use this power on satellite images. Would you assume that the latter case is because of a resistance, or because of a limitation on the range of things the ability can affect?

Also, Soma is not a Belmont, nor would any fodder creatures of chaos scale to him, so even taking that example at face value wouldn’t change the fact that both pages would lose this resistance.

Aw **** Chariot already covered this part better than me, forget this

“What part of "I can see them" is in anyway a debunk of the lore description of these monsters being invisible? Like wow, congratulations you somehow have more authority on how invisible they are than the developers and writers. None of that debunks the fact that their bestiary literally states they cannot be seen by the naked eye, and Leon (not Trevor btw) doesn't wear any specific goggles to see these monsters, he just can and can find their locations to attack. That's as straightforward as you can get, especially when the whole gimmick of the creature is that the naked eye cannot be able to see them and the belmonts are built different from other humans.”

Incredible how you hyperfocused on the very last line and did not address anything else. Very unbiased of you. Anyways, what proves that Leon can see these monsters? Like, from his perspective in the gameplay - I would assume the gameplay is at least a little bit representative of the character’s experience, anyways - the enemies do indeed vanish from sight. Yes, he can still hit them, but invisibility doesn’t equal intangibility, and tracking an enemy you can’t see through some other means isn’t that uncommon in fiction; As mentioned before, their reflection remains on the floor while invisible, so you could track them by looking at the ground. The fact that they flicker in and out of this invisible state also makes it hard to attribute this to enhanced senses when he could just wait for them to reappear and then attack. It’s a good intelligence or skill feat, but it’s not enhanced senses when there are so many different means of tracking these guys with normal human sight.

Also, why would every Belmont scale to the feats of one single Belmont? This is the only citation for this ability, you haven’t provided any more, and it’s one guy.

“The belmonts don't need to face them when sleeping when Incubus, the male equivalent of succubus, can be able to invade your dreams and mind to make you see and do things you don't like, as evident with what Magnus tries to do with Alucard while the latter is clearly awake. Plus the fact that Leon has faced off a Succubus before and was able to see through her spells would allow any of the Belmonts in general to resist them. Plus dark/chaos magic in general can corrupt an individual and make them see endless nightmares from their usage of it, and characters like Trevor and Simon can use Darkness infused weapons and are fine given the fact belmonts in general can fight off dark magic.”

For starters, I’m taking the “one justification at a time” approach I did with GoW with these revisions as well. So yes, I’m aware of the dark/chaos magic thing. I want to specifically focus on the succubi for now. Alucard’s thing is valid, which is why this removal is for the Belmonts and nobody else for the moment. Leon simply fighting a succubus isn’t enough of a justification for a resistance, though if you have a link to Leon resisting a succubus’ influence, that would be greatly appreciated.

I will ask again though, why does every Belmont scale to Leon? I imagine stat scaling is perfectly fine, but why should these characters share the same hax and resistances across generations?

“Again, Leon, not Trevor, also also the entire point with Leon's war he started with Dracula is he had his entire bloodline get ready for the battle against darkness, and all of the new items he received including magic that lets him do item crashes that he wasn't familiar with, but became common place for other belmonts who can naturally do item crashes would lead to believe at least some of these items carried over from generation to generation to help them with the fight, so something like the Saisei item wouldn't just be a Leon exclusive thing and would've been passed down to other belmonts to let them know of their knowledge.”

I don’t understand this line of thinking. So Leon gets magic that lets him do item crashes. Future Belmonts can use item crashes innately. But why does that mean all of Leon’s items are passed down through each generation?

“I love how this entire individual breakdown just ignores the most blatant part of soul hax and magic being tied together, which is the fact that the imp's ability to attack at a spiritual level is literally shown in the game to attack your magic. Literally why did you ignore the description on what's happening when the Imp is dealing "spiritual damage", though I'd love to see what part of "spiritual damage" has no correlation whatsoever to soul hax when it's attacking your spirit. This entire tirade you're just ignoring the most on the nose descriptions of these abilities to push, plus the entire point with UES for Castlevania is that one's magic power and soul is tied, Dracula's Soul and magic being one and the same is on the nose with how it even functions, so if you wanna nuke soul hax from magic, you're gonna need to get change the UES of castlevania, because none of this is tackling the big arguments that allow this to be commonplace. Plus Grimoire of Souls has so many weapons that have numerous statements of having magical powers, or having a person or monster's soul tied to the weapon and it amps the magical power of the wielder.”

Okay, so the imp’s soul magic can drain a person’s magic. I’m actually quite okay with magic and the soul having some intrinsic connection; I am very aware of how often “absorb the soul/power of this dude to get new magic” crops up as a plot point or gameplay mechanic in this series. The problem is that this isn’t necessarily soul manipulation, and it certainly doesn’t mean all magic harms the soul. The Grimoire of Souls stuff is cool and all, really good justifications for souls and magic being connected, but it doesn’t mean that magic can harm the soul. Do you understand what I’m getting at, Glass?

And why does everyone scale to the imp, anyways? No other monster has this magic, and given you can steal an imp’s powers in… whatever CV games let you do that, that implies that these characters don’t have an imp’s powers innately (otherwise, they wouldn’t need to absorb it).

So let's look at what we’ve got so far:

• Magnus can destroy people’s souls.
• Imps can drain magic by inflicting spiritual damage.
• A scan that does not even mention the soul.

None of this means "all magic can harm the soul directly". None of this implies that every use of magic, from the dinkiest little energy blast to Dominus, tears the target's soul asunder.

“Yeah what part of humans drinking blood for pleasure have anything to do with this? Especially when we're talking about stuff like Succubus, Incubus and vampires who normally are hungry for the blood and souls of humans, but Magnus just flat out said they don't need to eat them to survive? If they don't need food to survive that's textbook self-sustenance, especially when there's no real anti feats for monsters needing to eat or they'd starve to death.”

This only works if they only feed on blood - Magnus’ statement of “we don’t need blood to survive” doesn’t exclude literally any other piece of food in existence. We cannot conclusively say that no monsters ever need to eat anything when the sole piece of evidence for that is a guy saying “we don’t need to eat one specific type of food”. There’s no real anti-feats, sure, but there aren’t any feats either.

And really, if the creatures of chaos don’t need to eat, then what’s all that wall chicken for? /s

“The "bunch of monsters" is one random werewolf, which isn't a top tier creature like Carmilla or Death who can withstand these kinds of attacks like it's nothing. Also yeah that guy who "made absolute zero magic" only got it from Magnus, who's a creature of chaos and he was unfazed by it in the scene the dude uses absolute zero in the first place. Plus Richter literally sees this and essentially taunts them for using an amateur way to kill them, almost like absolute zero spells are common ground in the series.”

Okay, so you admit that non-top tiers don’t resist these hax. Thank you for confirming. I already said that characters that directly tank these spells can keep their resistance. I just wanted to remove it as a blanket resistance that everyone gets. Anyways, you still haven’t proven that everyone who uses ice magic also uses absolute zero. Richter taunting Cyril also doesn’t prove anything? I’m not sure how you got “every ice attack in CV breaks the ******* laws of physics” from “Richter lightly teases a fellow vampire hunter because he’s not impressed by his magic”.

Step back and think about what you’re proposing here. There are four mentions of AZ total (there might be more, but you haven’t shown me beyond the ones I’m already familiar with), and you’re using that to claim that damn near every ice attack in the series - of which there are a lot in a series this old - is AZ? That’s unreasonable and you know it.

“Creatures of chaos scale because you literally can have them as summons and they kill other creatures of chaos too, Death, Magnus and many other creatures in the series can kill each other and they can actually die from their blows. Lucy's statement is there to show that you literally need the ability to slay monsters and it's not a brute strength thing, it's literally an innate talent to do so in the first place. Also why are you conflating power with strength and not a specific power to kill someone that's immortal in the first place? This is reflected in the games where red skeletons, who's entire gimmick is that they can't normally die, can die to specific powers or weapons as shown in Portrait of Ruins, Curse of Darkness and Dracula X Chronicles. Curse of Darkness especially is you using a lesser creature of chaos to permanently kill red skeletons, so yes immortality negation is a thing that 100% scales to other monsters when they have the ability to do so.”

Alright, so Magnus and Death can keep their immortality negation, but these are named characters with their own individual powers and abilities. The regular creatures of chaos have no business scaling to them. Also, the summons claim is uncited, and we’d have no way to prove that these fodder enemies are truly dead forever (since iirc CV enemies respawn with every screen change, and they’ll always come back alongside Dracula).

I’m not “conflating” power with strength, Glass, good lord. The words are synonyms, which means they mean the same thing.

I do, however, want to thank you for bringing up red skeletons. The “Purify” spell you linked actually clarifies that this ability is the ONLY thing that can kill red skeletons (that’s a wiki edit, but as far as I know it’s accurate, and I would hope you agree since you’re linking this wiki a lot). The Holy Whip and Tera’s necklace also hurt your point? They’re special magic items that can give the protagonist the ability to negate one kind of immortality, and the fact that these items are the only way to negate that immortality does not support the idea that regular fodder enemies can innately negate immortality. Purify is also light-based holy magic, so no monsters should scale to it unless they can also cast that spell. It’s not a physiological trait, it’s just a highly specific magic ability.

Overall, your post doesn’t even address the main issue, which is that the regular creatures of chaos - the target of the downgrade, in case you needed reminding - have no way to scale to any of these feats. Death and Magnus are no fodder, regular monsters aren’t carrying around a random girl’s necklace or a holy whip, and I don’t see any skeletons or medusa heads blasting people with beams of holy light (probably because they can’t actually do that).

“How is someone being able to move after fighting off the wave of magic that's freezing her in place an anti feat? That doesn't contradict paralysis that's just a feat for the hunter in question.”

Glass, it’s a metaphor. A character being rooted to a place because of fear, uncertainty, or anxiety is an extremely common trope, and I would also probably be a little hesitant to keep moving if I was in Dracula’s castle.

“He's still incorporeal for being an apparition, even if you want to argue the semantics of this being intangible, Death as a being is not a physical creature as he is the concept of death.”

He’s not an abstract, either, but I’ll give you that. Until the next downgrade, at least.

“He literally doesn't die for good like other people like Joachim or the red skeletons or Brauner. None of the belmonts or the other heroes can permanently end him and he always comes back, so his immortality isn't being negated as it's on a whole nother level, it's as straightforward as it can get.”

As far as I can tell, Death does die. Repeatedly, in fact. There appear to be many games where you fight Death, he disappears, and you don’t see him again for the rest of the game (showing that he is indeed truly dead). The issue is that he’ll just come back when Dracula does, as is the case for all the other creatures of chaos. If there is an example of him dying and coming back without some sort of outside intervention (ie; Drac coming back), then please share it.

Slimes are intangible things when fiction in general has these creatures go through any conventional hits and not be harmed, the fact any of the heroes can kill them would imply they're actually directly interacting with them. Going through specific walls doesn't change the fact he's still in the wall and Shanoa just killed him with her glyph magic, which btw is a universal thing that exists in all objects and creatures, again, UES stuff. You wanna nuke this, then try and argue that Glyphs in general isn't a universal concept that exists in the series, because OoE goes out of its way to show that everything and everyone has magical properties via glyphs. Dracula's magic and even Alucard's magic interacts with the Navigators in general, and them being nonexistent is a result of being succumbed to the magic of the castle, the common ghosts in the series also suffer the same influence so they'd just be nonexistent too, and they're able to be harmed directly.

Slimes being intangible in fiction is irrelevant. What you need to prove is that slimes in Castlevania are intangible, which you have not done. All there is is a scan that says slimes are made of gel. That’s it. Gel is not incorporeal or intangible, it can be cut with a sword or struck down with holy magic all the same. I could point out how absurd it is that you’re claiming that all slimes in gaming are incorporeal, but that’d be a waste of time.

That said, I love wasting time. Slimes are NOT intangible in fiction, are you kidding me? You’ve never played Dragon Quest, D&D, Slime Rancher, any game with slimes in it? I cannot think of a single instance in fiction where a slime is portrayed as unable to be interacted with because of their gooey nature, but I could easily bring you a dozen JRPGs and more where you whack a slime with a dagger and get 3 xp and 7 gold for it.

Shanoa’s thing isn’t NPI, though. She’s just sucking the power out of some poor guy and then taking it for herself (while standing 20 feet away from him, mind you). Power absorption of this type doesn’t really require NPI, because what’s even being “interacted” with here? Shanoa isn’t physically touching anyone, she’s just… absorbing powers. Glyph magic being a universal thing is irrelevant, because what Shanoa is doing here plainly isn’t NPI.

The Navigators are never physically interacted with. Alucard reverses time to bring them back to life, but that’s not NPI. When he uses them to teleport, they do not interact at all; Alucard is just whisked away by a shroud of darkness, and he magically arrives at this location. Teleportation via magic is not NPI. Also, “common ghosts” sharing the powers of Navigators is nonsense. Not only is that claim uncited, but it’s explicitly stated that when the Navigators died, their powers were forgotten along with them. Seems clear to me that only Navigators are the victims of this strange existential displacement.

 

[Topaz404]

From what I've seen so far, I think glass's argument for the soul matters and most of the rest makes sense to me. I am neutral to Technological Manipulation removal though, there seems to be some genuine issues there regardless

Guess i'll slot you into disagree, then?

 

[Theglassman12]

However, it would seem i must go back on my word to not get involved for the time being, because a new response dropped. Ill go ahead and leave it for you to look over before i go back to simply tallying votes- thank you for understanding

Ok sorry but I draw the line with you just letting Fuji write up an entire response to this site like she's not even banned despite her profile being banned in the first place. I'm gonna make this one response left and then I'm reporting this, this is just stupid beyond measure.

It's literally used to detect breakable walls, it's an eye piece designed to scan for breakable walls, that is a technology whether you like it or not, it being visualized like a scouter is the cherry on top because that's its purpose, also what part of a neutron bomb is magical at all when it's based on IRL weaponry? Same with the positron gun as it's literally a laser gun designed to shoot antimatter at enemies. Nothing about these devices are magical. This isn't even stated to be limited to specific forms of technology, especially when Dracula's own blood (which is an extension of his magic) literally can corrupt and shut down massive mechanical monstrosities, so this example doesn't work. Also Soma not being a belmont isn't relevant because he still is wielding advanced technology that's not being hampered by the castle's influence.

The fact you have to say that last line at all shows how dumb this point is, so maybe make a better argument than say "Oh I can see it". Also the reflection doesn't really debunk anything when a reflection doesn't help someone with the naked eye as it's still impossible for anyone to see, the Leon can see him at all, even in the reflection would imply he has the senses capable of seeing the monster in the first place, as for why this cross scales, it's literally an innate thing Leon has and not from some specific weapon or tool. Plus literally the entire point of the belmont bloodline is that a lot of their innate training and capabilities are passed down from generation to generation, which for the most powerful and skilled monster hunters of the franchise it would be strange that they just can't do the thing that other hunters that aren't on their calibur can do.

Leon essentially find the succubus who tries to lure him into false sense of security as his betrothed, only for him to see through the guise at the last second and she essentially comments that the trick didn't work in the end, this is hardly much different than when Alucard in SOTN faces the succubus in that game in the dream world and she tries to do the same thing by pretending to be his mom to make him do evil things, but when he saw through her guise she comments that he was capable of breaking the spell as a result. As for why this cross scales, again it's literally in their blood that they can resist the dark influence of other creatures. That's not only reinforced in Portrait of Ruin where their bloodline specifically can use the vampire killer, the most powerful holy weapon in the series without its powers killing them like it did to John Morris, but in Order of Ecclesia where Albus collecting the blood of the distant relatives of the belmonts was enough for him to resist Dominus, another aspect of Dracula's magic itself. Them not scaling to the same kinds of resistance they innately have wouldn't make sense as it's in the story that their bloodline can resist these powers.

These items are what allowed Leon to do item crashes in the first place and before the start of the game he's green when it comes to magic, Rinaldo Gandolfi had to enchant his gauntlets in order to properly harness magic and literally every other belmont down the line is capable of doing item crashes that Leon otherwise needed items to achieve, grand cross, hydro storm, the raining knives among many other abilities, alongside the fact that they're more adept with magic to the point of channeling the vampire killer's power directly into their body with said item crashes rather than using outside sources.

Ok so you admit that magic and the soul have intrinsic connections, but we're just glossing over the other points I've made with how Dracula's soul and Soma's magic are one and the same, Dracula's castle being the literal manifestation of his magic and being a spiritual world on top of that. If magic and soul are one and the same, and magic is literally the in universe reasoning for why characters get stronger or weaker, AKA the UES of the franchise, why would attacks that mess with magic not affect the soul? That's still soul manipulation so you saying it isn't doesn't work here when you already conceded that magic and souls have intrinsic connections in the first place, also stop skimming Magnus' points and the imp points, if his strength is tied to spiritual attacks, which is what magic is by your concession, then magic can affect and harm the soul, the imps not being a direct feat of attacking the soul for magic I legit have to question what your line of logic behind this is. If it's not then what spiritual damage is it? Especially when this franchise always talks about souls and what's inside of it, they're not talking about organs or anything else so the burden of proof is on you that these aren't soul attacks.

So we're ignoring how all of these creatures of chaos are based off of classic horror and mythological creatures, most of these are known for hungering for the blood and flesh of humans, and Magnus flat out tells Maria that this isn't needed for nourishment and they just do this for funzies. If they don't need what monsters in fiction need to survive, then they don't need to feed to live, so they have self sustenance, you saying there's no anti feats doesn't refute this. If you have any instances of them flat out needing this to survive because without blood they will actually die then you need to bring that first and foremost, because none of this is debunking what Magnus has said.

The non top tiers that also don't have profiles on the wiki because they're not noteworthy enough for a page. Do you notice that everyone that has a profile on the wiki is noteworthy enough and not just a random jobber like bone throwing skeleton #36. The demon commanding absolute cold/zero and a ring that's designed to resist ice based attacks called an Absolute Zero ring is the key thing with them being absolute zero in nature. Richter taunting him by using something amateurish implies that absolute zero magic is not rare in this world, otherwise Richter would be impressed by the kind of magic he has and comments that it's nothing like he's ever seen before. Also no it's not unreasonable when the sources aren't from an unreliable character in the series. If two characters in a random franchise said that swords can naturally rip apart atoms like it's nothing and not only are they knowledgeable enough but there's nothing in the series that contradicts their words, they don't become invalid because there "aren't enough statements". This isn't a point to make, this is an argument from ignorance if you're telling me that there needs to be more evidence when that's not how it works.

Do I need to spoon feed you every single thing with creatures of chaos or can you do a simple google search on the wiki to find the summons in the series that's literally used to fight alongside you? Because that's in the game that they're used to kill the monsters. Also the monsters coming back after leaving the screen has less to do with their immortality and more that there's literally an infinite number of these monsters as stated several times in the series, so no they don't come back when they still have the natural talent to do so. Also claiming that they don't scale to killing them despite Lucy flat out describing that killing creatures of chaos is an innate talent one needs to have in order to kill these monsters on top of the fact these summons literally do the same thing every single hunter in the franchise can do isn't an argument, you want to nuke this from every single creature of chaos? Prove that what Lucy's saying is wrong or that there exists actual contradicting evidence to this, because you've not done this whatsoever beyond just saying no, also funny you say that monsters in castlevania can't use holy magic where if you actually read the creatures of chaos page, you'd see there exists numerous monsters in the franchise that can utilize and resist holy magic.

Well first off dracula's castle isn't the thing that's affecting her, it's death's magic. If dracula's castle was causing her to be scared she would've constantly shat her pants from the moment she entered the castle to begin with, yet she's in the throne room watching death and olrox fight and their magic is causing this, but thanks for the concession.

Good luck trying to tell me that death isn't Abstract despite the fact he literally is a god of death and they're flat out stated to be abstract existences.

Death doesn't permanently die, he always comes back to life in every game, hence why his immortality is not being negated as he still comes back in the end. The same can't be said for Joachim or Brauner or Lyudmill where when they died, they stayed dead and have no confirmation of ever coming back, that's why his immortality isn't negated to the same extent otherwise he wouldn't have come back at all.

Slimes aren't affected by normal strikes in fiction either, they mostly just take it and the attacks get stuck. Also bringing up a lot of RPGs where you hit slimes doesn't really matter when a lot of RPGs have you harming literal ghosts, and despite not being spelled out for you that ghosts are incorporeal and can phase through conventional attacks, every single RPG ever has NPI for interacting with ghosts and even killing them.

You do know the glyph she's absorbing is part of his essence right? The part that's inside the wall to begin with? The fact the guy flat out dies when you do this means she directly interacted with him in a way that caused his demise. You can keep dancing around this, but you're not even trying to refute what the entire point of the glyphs are which is why this is a common NPI thing for the series.

You mean the magic that Alucard has thanks to being a creature of chaos? Also saying he doesn't interact with them despite the fact he's using his magic to interact with their beings to become living again is just laughable at this point, you're just ignoring what Alucard is doing in the first place for the Navigators to be the way they are. Also yeah, teleportation via magic isn't NPI, but that's not the point I was making there, he literally interacted with their beings in order for them to be alive and functional for the fast travel to work. Also good to know you didn't read the text, it said their powers were forgotten, not their existence. The former is the ability for them to fold space itself for the fast travel to work, the latter is literally what happened to them when they were succumbed to the magic of Dracula's castle, which happens to the normal souls as they're literally a part of the castle and are under the influence of the castle's magic.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I was not asked to look at this for the purposes of evaluation, rather for the accused violation of our rules; as this does not violate our current rules as was alleged, I have chosen to evaluate it to ensure it is getting a fair evaluation. I will reply to the OP's arguments directly, and if any of them are particularly lacking in my opinion, I will go through the thread, and see if a counter argument is more in line with my interpretation.

Resistance to Technology Manipulation [Belmont Bloodline/Creatures of Chaos]

The Belmonts can resist technology manipulation, because they’re not affected by the castle disturbing satellite images. Satellite images are, for the record, not something any Castlevania protagonist has used or will ever use. I don’t think any of the enemies use them, either, so their resistance gets nuked as well. Most of the games take place centuries before modern technology was ever a thing, anyways.

This is one I'll look for further information on from rebuttals.

Enhanced Senses [Belmont Bloodline]

Shadows in Lament of Innocence can surround themselves in an aura of darkness, making themselves invisible. The page claims that the Belmonts can innately see through this shroud, but there is no indication of this; At the very least, we know Trevor can’t see them since they appear invisible from his perspective (when playing as him in Lament of Innocence). He can, however, “see” them whenever their aura disappears for a brief moment, or by looking at their reflections in the floor, neither of which require enhanced senses. Also, the Phantom’s eyes are constantly glowing red, so much so that even I can see through their “invisibility”.

I would agree with this outright, barring further intel from the opposition. This seems a silly thing.

Resistance to Dream Manipulation [Belmont Bloodline]

Succubi can invade men’s dreams. As far as I am aware, the Belmonts have never fought a succubus while asleep, though I would very much like to see a video of that if it exists. We also never see succubi use this dream invasion in combat, so I’m struggling to think of a scenario where it would need to be “resisted” in any of the games.

Agree, unless a video is produced.

Healing [Mid-Low] [Belmont Bloodline]

In Lament of Innocence, Trevor can use the Saisei Incense item to gradually restore his health. This item only appears in Lament of Innocence, which means I’m fairly certain Trevor is the only Belmont to have used this item. You have to do some insane stretching to extrapolate an item that one character has used in one game into an innate magic power that nearly every protagonist in the series has access to. This should be moved to Trevor’s profile, as an item and not as an innate technique.

Again, if this is the case, then I agree.

Soul Manipulation [General Chaos Magic]

Magic in Castlevania can innately harm the soul for a variety of different reasons. No less than 8 scans means the basis for this ability must be pretty sound, right? Let’s go through those scans one by one to see how valid they really are.

• A character named Magnus can utilize spiritual attacks using his claws.

You could maybe split hairs over whether or not a “spiritual attack” innately harms the soul, but let’s sidestep that for now and say this is 100% valid and Magnus can indeed harm the soul with his claws. The problem is that there is no reason why every single magic user in the series scales to this one guy who can attack the soul.

• Soma Cruz’s soul and Dracula’s power are one and the same.

This is cool and all, but this isn’t soulhax. There is no reason why this connection between Soma and Dracula would lead to magic harming the soul, nor is there a reason why everyone would scale to this when Soma’s connection to Dracula isn’t something everybody has access to.

• Imps can create spaces that inflict spiritual damage.

Again, this is fine, and I’m willing to overlook the possibility that this isn’t even soulhax, but why is everyone being scaled to something only imps have been shown to do? This isn’t a case where the scans showcase a number of different monsters to show that this is consistent amongst them; It’s just the imp. Is there any reason why every magic user should have access to every imp’s powers?

• Magnus casts a spell which should have destroyed the target’s soul.

Again with this Magnus ************. I’m aware that some characters would have his powers anyways by virtue of having all the verse powers, but as far as I’m aware, that doesn’t apply to literally everyone who can use magic.

• ???

This scan doesn’t even mention the soul.

• The deeper the darkness of one’s soul, the more powerful their magic becomes.

Finally, an actual connection between magic and the soul. However, this also isn’t soulhax. A person’s soul being the power source for their abilities doesn’t mean they can harm the soul; Frankly, I shouldn’t even need to explain this, because the logic of “having an energy source means all of your attacks can harm that energy source” is fundamentally baseless. Goku doesn’t blow up people’s ki reserves because he uses ki, for example. So while you could probably draw some sort of connection between magic and the soul based on this scan, that connection certainly isn’t “all magic can blow up the soul”.

As you can see, the connections between magic and the soul are tenuous at best, with one (1) character and one (1) common enemy type having soulhax being the entire basis for every character harming the soul with their basic attacks. Naturally, resistance to soul manipulation should also be removed from the relevant pages, unless the page in question has another justification.

"Spiritual damage" seems fine to maintain as Soul Manipulation, it seems the most natural explanation to the verbiage. I otherwise agree with this segment, meaning that I feel Magnus and the Imp's abilities are Soul Manipulation proper, general magic users should not have that Soul Manipulation extended to them.

Self-Sustenance [Type 2]

Magnus doesn’t strictly need to drink blood, but he does it for pleasure anyways. This isn’t really a blanket statement confirming that monsters never need to eat anything at all, especially since most living things also don’t need to drink blood. Hell, even humans don’t need to drink blood, but some of them do it for pleasure anyways (or so I’m told, imagine being the kind of freak that’s into that haha).

I'd say it's more likely that this is a general application of having a nature like Magnus. It isn't the same as magic, which is based implicitly on talent and power- rather, this is biological. If Magnus is a monster, this probably applies to all things in the category of "monster", or at least his subtype of monster (vampire?). If it is applied more generally than that, or if Magnus is a more unique creature, I would agree with removing this.

Resistance to Ice Manipulation & Absolute Zero [Creatures of Chaos]

One of the scans included shows a bunch of monsters being casually oneshot by ice magic, so uh. That’s probably not a great sign. Additionally, two people using AZ magic and a single ring having “Absolute Zero” in the name is not evidence of all ice magic being absolute zero. As far as I can tell, no enemies have ever resisted attacks from any of the characters who have AZ magic, although the Belmont Bloodline can keep its resistance if any Belmonts have fought against the Frost Demon enemy.

yeah

Immortality & Regeneration Negation [Creatures of Chaos]

The sole justification for all monsters being able to negate each other’s immortality is this character, Lucy, who claims that she was not born with an innate talent for destroying the creatures of chaos like those around her were. Now, Lucy is not a creature of chaos, and a brief wiki dive shows that her family certainly isn’t either (in fact, they seem quite dedicated to killing creatures of chaos). So uh… why would creatures of chaos scale to a family of exorcists, who are humans, who specialize in anti-chaos magic, who fight creatures of chaos so much that it has quite literally become their family reputation to the point where a family member who isn’t killing monsters is seen as a black sheep?

Oh, and that ignores the more obvious issue, which is that this entire scene has nothing to do with immortality. While Lucy’s initial statement about simply not being able to destroy monsters could be seen as referring to their immortality, she later clarifies that this is actually due to her lacking the power necessary to kill them. This makes sense, of course - Creatures of chaos are far deadlier than any ordinary human, which is why the Belmonts are explicitly superhuman. Thus, even if monsters aren’t immortal (or even if Lucy did have a way to negate their immortality), Lucy’s statement would still apply because of the substantial gap in power.

yeah^2

Life Manipulation [Death/Count Olrox]

This scan is being misinterpreted. It’s not saying that Death’s magic absorbs the lifeforce from anyone nearby, it’s saying that a regular human who stood in the epicenter of a magical vortex would lose their life. That’s “lose their life” as in “die”, to be clear. Anybody with resistance to life manipulation via resisting Death’s magic should also lose their resistance.

Yeah this one is pretty egregiously bad. Agree with removal.

Paralysis Inducement [Death/Count Olrox]

Page claims that Death’s magic can paralyze people.
Attached scan shows someone easily moving after being exposed to Death’s magic.

A real brain buster, this one is.

Taking flowery wording as explicit is the bane of the powerscaling class. Remove it.

Incorporeality [Death]

This is intangibility. Not incorporeality.

One feels unqualified to determine what the hell is going on in this video. The difference between the two is middling so without further information, my answer is "maybe".

Resistance to Immortality Negation [Death]

Death is immortal because he can return as the concept of death. Fair enough. He also resists having that immortality negated because… he can return as the concept of death. I shouldn’t need to explain that simply being immortal is not a justification for resisting the negation of that immortality.

Man. Yeah.

Non-Physical Interaction [A Lot of People]

This will remove some, but not all of the NPI justifications spread across various pages. Starting with elemental intangibility, the slime enemy absolutely does not count. “Gel” is not non-physical; I can interact with any kind of gel, ranging from Jell-o to shaving gel, because that’s not something that requires some sort of special magic. On a related note is the claim that everyone can harm characters that can phase through walls, but not only is there no source for this, but the phasing in question is a technique that only works on specific walls; So just harming the character in general isn’t good enough. For NEP, this stems from the purported ability to harm Navigators, which have been freed from the concepts of time and existence. One problem - Navigators are never fought at any point in the series. There is no mechanism in the game that allows the player to “interact” with a Navigator in a way that would constitute NPI.

The slime bit is obviously fine. The technique bit requires elaboration, one feels, as the specifics can have a large impact on how we consider that. The NEP bit is fine if accurate (I will see when I read the rest of the thread, before it gets overlong).

Oh, and for what it’s worth, the Navigators shouldn’t have aspect type 1 or 3 NEP. There’s no indication that they lack minds or souls; We have different categories of NEP for a reason, you know.

phrased unnecessarily rudely but, sure, yeah.

onto Glass' initial rebuttal (which will probably be most if not all of the rebuttals I read, unless there's stuff strictly better elaborated on than his reply). I'll put my conclusions on each topic in bold.

Technology resistance there's literally items that characters like Jonathan and Charlotte have like the Eye for Decay, which is literally a scouter designed to track invisible walls, there's fact items like a neutron bomb that existed in the 17th century is a thing (so this whole "Castlevania is before modern day" argument means nothing when Neutron bombs existed back then in the series), alongside Positron gun that Soma can use, and all of these can still work in the hands of the heroes despite being in the influence of the castle. So yeah I'd argue the technology resistance should stay if they're able to have their own technology not get messed up by the castle's powers.

A couple of these are really flimsy. The neutron bomb is still visibly a normal bomb for that era- nor does it obviously produce the sort of effect a neutron bomb would. I would take the name to simply mean "very powerful", in the way an arcade game, for example, might use. The positron gun gives more greater pause, and I'll look for further information on that.

What part of "I can see them" is in anyway a debunk of the lore description of these monsters being invisible? Like wow, congratulations you somehow have more authority on how invisible they are than the developers and writers. None of that debunks the fact that their bestiary literally states they cannot be seen by the naked eye, and Leon (not Trevor btw) doesn't wear any specific goggles to see these monsters, he just can and can find their locations to attack. That's as straightforward as you can get, especially when the whole gimmick of the creature is that the naked eye cannot be able to see them and the belmonts are built different from other humans.

The scan gives me pause, but really, given the brevity of these descriptions, I find it unlikely the developers would clarify regarding their red eyes remaining visible. The fact that these red eyes can be seen seems to me enough to negate the idea of enhanced senses for detecting them. I support removing Enhanced Senses, although I consider it a topic that I could be swayed on.

The belmonts don't need to face them when sleeping when Incubus, the male equivalent of succubus, can be able to invade your dreams and mind to make you see and do things you don't like, as evident with what Magnus tries to do with Alucard while the latter is clearly awake. Plus the fact that Leon has faced off a Succubus before and was able to see through her spells would allow any of the Belmonts in general to resist them. Plus dark/chaos magic in general can corrupt an individual and make them see endless nightmares from their usage of it, and characters like Trevor and Simon can use Darkness infused weapons and are fine given the fact belmonts in general can fight off dark magic.

Some of this evidence is obviously flimsy, and seems to use relatively normal psychological effects as justification for otherworldly power (killing a bunch of people gives you bad dreams, or super demon corruption magic twists your perception of reality!?). Either way, the Magnus bit is notable, so the ball is in the court of the supporters now. I will read whatever rebuttal exists for this.

Again, Leon, not Trevor, also also the entire point with Leon's war he started with Dracula is he had his entire bloodline get ready for the battle against darkness, and all of the new items he received including magic that lets him do item crashes that he wasn't familiar with, but became common place for other belmonts who can naturally do item crashes would lead to believe at least some of these items carried over from generation to generation to help them with the fight, so something like the Saisei item wouldn't just be a Leon exclusive thing and would've been passed down to other belmonts to let them know of their knowledge.

I need scans for a bit of this, in particular the bolded elements. Like. If this is just speculation, then fair, but I'd prefer some evidence to back it up if possible.

I love how this entire individual breakdown just ignores the most blatant part of soul hax and magic being tied together, which is the fact that the imp's ability to attack at a spiritual level is literally shown in the game to attack your magic. Literally why did you ignore the description on what's happening when the Imp is dealing "spiritual damage", though I'd love to see what part of "spiritual damage" has no correlation whatsoever to soul hax when it's attacking your spirit. This entire tirade you're just ignoring the most on the nose descriptions of these abilities to push, plus the entire point with UES for Castlevania is that one's magic power and soul is tied, Dracula's Soul and magic being one and the same is on the nose with how it even functions, so if you wanna nuke soul hax from magic, you're gonna need to get change the UES of castlevania, because none of this is tackling the big arguments that allow this to be commonplace. Plus Grimoire of Souls has so many weapons that have numerous statements of having magical powers, or having a person or monster's soul tied to the weapon and it amps the magical power of the wielder.

I think part of this explanation is bad, as it hinges on the mechanics of a single creature to display the information. Something so supposedly foundational to a verse with so many instances of media seems absurdly unlikely. I suppose it falls to speculation again, to an extent. I feel it is worth mentioning that I find that Grimoire of Souls bit to be entirely irrelevant- there being magic weapons that interface with the soul does not make a statement regarding all magic. I'll look for more intel later in the thread on this subject.

Yeah what part of humans drinking blood for pleasure have anything to do with this? Especially when we're talking about stuff like Succubus, Incubus and vampires who normally are hungry for the blood and souls of humans, but Magnus just flat out said they don't need to eat them to survive? If they don't need food to survive that's textbook self-sustenance, especially when there's no real anti feats for monsters needing to eat or they'd starve to death.

I've since gathered that Magnus is an Incubus (obviously), so what he says should go for demons in general, one would think. This doesn't seem to include vampires, so separate evidence should be had for vampires. I am opposed to removal for demons, but in favor of removal for vampires and other non-demons.

Creatures of chaos scale because you literally can have them as summons and they kill other creatures of chaos too, Death, Magnus and many other creatures in the series can kill each other and they can actually die from their blows. Lucy's statement is there to show that you literally need the ability to slay monsters and it's not a brute strength thing, it's literally an innate talent to do so in the first place. Also why are you conflating power with strength and not a specific power to kill someone that's immortal in the first place? This is reflected in the games where red skeletons, who's entire gimmick is that they can't normally die, can die to specific powers or weapons as shown in Portrait of Ruins, Curse of Darkness and Dracula X Chronicles. Curse of Darkness especially is you using a lesser creature of chaos to permanently kill red skeletons, so yes immortality negation is a thing that 100% scales to other monsters when they have the ability to do so.

I don't know if I'd interpret her words to say that, in fact the OP makes a reasonably compelling case towards the opposite effect- that it is a matter of brute strength, this being the ability Lucy lacked. I'd also take the skeleton thing to indicate creatures who don't share that gimmick (that is, most of them) to be non-immortal. If you could show something for that last line, it would be a deciding factor- that creatures of chaos destroy these creatures who require particular effects; preferably, show a creature who does not show these conditions- these weapons or specific powers- destroying a red skeleton.

How is someone being able to move after fighting off the wave of magic that's freezing her in place an anti feat? That doesn't contradict paralysis that's just a feat for the hunter in question.

The scan in question doesn't show a wave of magic freezing her in place, it says she was "petrified" by smelling the magic-laced air. Petrified is an oft-used word, and it is used accurately here- she was rooted in place, albeit temporarily. I do not take this to mean she literally turned to stone, but rather the rotten smell briefly stopped her in her tracks. It doesn't have to be a mystical ability to make sense. I agree with removing paralysis inducement.

He's still incorporeal for being an apparition, even if you want to argue the semantics of this being intangible, Death as a being is not a physical creature as he is the concept of death.

Yeah that's fair. I disagree with changing incorporeality to intangibility.

He literally doesn't die for good like other people like Joachim or the red skeletons or Brauner. None of the belmonts or the other heroes can permanently end him and he always comes back, so his immortality isn't being negated as it's on a whole nother level, it's as straightforward as it can get.

The pair of you are getting confusing. This seems to be just Immortality, and the Belmonts are not negating it. You're evoking other instances of Immortality that is negated, but you just said that the Red Skeletons get negated for particular criteria (specific abilities negating it is a weakness of the immortality). It seems likely, then, that the others may be situational. I'm neutral regarding this for now, the evidence provided in the profiles is too low quality to really make heads or tails of this, with information spread too thin.

Slimes are intangible things when fiction in general has these creatures go through any conventional hits and not be harmed, the fact any of the heroes can kill them would imply they're actually directly interacting with them. Going through specific walls doesn't change the fact he's still in the wall and Shanoa just killed him with her glyph magic, which btw is a universal thing that exists in all objects and creatures, again, UES stuff. You wanna nuke this, then try and argue that Glyphs in general isn't a universal concept that exists in the series, because OoE goes out of its way to show that everything and everyone has magical properties via glyphs. Dracula's magic and even Alucard's magic interacts with the Navigators in general, and them being nonexistent is a result of being succumbed to the magic of the castle, the common ghosts in the series also suffer the same influence so they'd just be nonexistent too, and they're able to be harmed directly.

The slime bit can be for other reasons than intangibility, and indeed I would not default to intangibility. I wish your arguments would be less combative and more on point, as it detracts from the point you're making. I need scans regarding the Navigator bit.

Onto Chariot's immediate rebuttal regarding Technology Manipulation.

Yeah nah that ain't how the wiki works. What you've done, is explain why those specific items should maybe have tech manip res. But not why the characters themselves should.

Chalotte isn't a neutron bomb, Charlotte isn't the EoD, Charlotte isn't the positron gun, etc.
If the castle fails to effect those items, that's a boon for the item, not the character.

This only works if
1. We are told, explicitly, the reason those items function still is due to some intrinsic aspect or protection from the wielder.
2. We also assume the Castle can do anything to begin with.

The feat in question, is just making it so the eclipse couldn't pick the castle up and instead black fog. Why would this stop a bomb? Or why would this stop a gun? It wouldn't, the satellites still function, it's just the image they picked up was altered or obfuscated, and that's assuming it was actually altered and that there wasn't actually fog in play to begin with.

Tech res absolutely doesn't work. At best you can apply it to a few items only and would need to list exactly what has it, but even that's generous because it isn't as if the Castle's tech manip shuts things down or would effect them in a way that would matter, except maybe the EoD if you really wanna stretch it.

As an aside, for resistances to be added, the character in question must actually use said ability on them, just because they have it, and didn't use it, doesn't mean they resist. We need to be shown them actually resisting the slop, that or told it wouldn't work (Or even just "nothing I have would beat them!" or something like that would be fine imo). Presuming resistances ain't allowed even if in theory it makes sense, which while annoying do be the rule.

I agree with this, almost entirely. It doesn't make sense to extend the resistance to a character when it depends on the item. The positronic gun remains the only other instance I feel is notable, also. I agree with removing resistance to technology manipulation.

Regarding the later back-and-forth between Glass and Chariot: I will not quote it directly, to save space (it's many messages, all about the earlier Soul manipulation), and I feel safe to say that I agree with the removal of Soul Manipulation. My conclusion there will be kept short, suffice to say that I agree with more elements of Chariot's conclusion than Glass'.

...And that brings us to the present. There's information I want, I will analyze it when it is provided. Until then, these are my conclusions.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Oh, right. Someone also asked me to grab other staff here.

@Deagonx @Agnaa @Sir_Ovens @GrathOfLux

It remains a relatively short thread for now. Not too horrid to go through.

 

[Deagonx]

Makes sense to me

 

[Hellscream]

Agreed

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

I'd say it's more likely that this is a general application of having a nature like Magnus. It isn't the same as magic, which is based implicitly on talent and power- rather, this is biological. If Magnus is a monster, this probably applies to all things in the category of "monster", or at least his subtype of monster (vampire?). If it is applied more generally than that, or if Magnus is a more unique creature, I would agree with removing this.

Don't think the argument is that it shouldn't extend universally to all monsters, but that monsters can consume or survive on other sources (animals, plants and such) and don’t solely rely on humans or their blood. The line in question specifically refers to human blood too.

Humans are foolish and ugly. You humans merely exist for us to kill for amusement.
It isn't really necessary to drink your blood.

So it's entirely plausible that Magnus and other monsters just don’t need human blood to survive, not that they don’t need any food at all.

 

[Theglassman12]

@Mr. Bambu it being visibly a normal bomb doesn’t change the fact that they have something like neutron bombs in the 17th century, something Fuji is arguing based on “they’re in medieval times so they don’t have modern tech” despite the series showing the opposite on numerous occasions.

The red eyes being visible to the player to see something doesn’t debunk the literal lore of the monster that it cannot be seen by any normal set of eyes in universe to begin with. The fact Leon can find and detect them despite the darkness on them would imply he has some form of enhanced senses to be able to detect this monster.

what part of relatively normal psychological effects remotely address that the brotherhood, the same people who’s supposed to be righteous warriors who fight for the good of mankind, remotely dabbling into shadow magic and them being driven insane to the point of their dreams being haunted constantly from the exposure of this magic? The whole point of Shadow magic is that the warriors who use it gets corrupted by its usage, and the Belmonts having shown to use darkness affiliated weapons with no ill effects is proof of their resistance.

Every Belmont after Leon can do item crashes rather easily. These same item crashes Leon only had through the items he got in his game as he wasn’t familiar with magic prior to it.

Why are you ignoring the whole point with Dracula’s soul and Soma’s magic being stated as one and the same? Or that Dracula’s castle which is a manifestation of his magic as stated numerous times in the franchise is also a spiritual world? The former is literally an entire plot point with two of the game’s main protagonist where he’s the reincarnation of Dracula because of his Power of Dominance. The imp statement is the most in your face example of magic and souls being one and the same because the spriitual damage literally affects your magic as a result, so anyone that can mess with or have some effect on magic (which is practically anyone noteworthy in this franchise) can affect the soul as well, which btw Chariot hasn’t remotely refuted the Dracula stuff in our entire conversation. Also how is GoS irrelevant when the entire point of Magic and souls is that both are treated the same thing and can amp everyone’s stats akin to a UES? It absolutely is relevant and saying otherwise without elaborating isn’t an argument.

Except Magnus doesn’t refer to only himself, he refers to all monsters killing humans as only a form of entertainment and not necessary to live as he said “us”, not “my”. Big difference there.

Again what part of talent has anything to do with strength? Lucy knows how to cast power nullifying spells that can separate one’s strength and yet she still comments that she cannot kill dark beings. If it was brute force then why would hunters and specific weapons be needed to fight creatures of chaos at all? As for the scans on normal monsters it’s literally on every game you can summon monsters that they can kill other monsters too. Also monster not being immortal is ignoring the entire point of every creature of chaos, who all exist because of the darkness in humanity and they cannot die easily because of it. Red skeletons are a special breed of them because they’re more immortal than the other enemies. Same goes with other enemies like Dracula and death as they don’t die and always come back to life where others do die.

Said rotten stench is also added onto it being deep filled with magic, if it was just a rotten stench she would just gag at the smell and not literally freeze in place from the effects.

The red skeletons die from holy magic, which the Vampire killer in lore is the holy magic in the franchise. Out of all weapons and power that can kill monsters, the vampire killer is among the greatest, it’s literally one of the main reasons why the Belmonts are the best of the hunters. Death dying doesn’t result in his immortality being negated because if it was negated at all, he would’ve stayed dead, but he doesn’t and always comes back. The only reason red skeletons don’t die in game from older games is because game mechanics but in lore the vampire killer among other powerful holy weapons have the capacity to kill these monsters for good.

41:30 Alucard is directly manipulating the Navigators with his magic.

Again, chariot hasn’t argued against the other points I’ve made for the souls and magic stuff and I’m still waiting for that to have some refute.

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

Just a small thing, @Topaz404 you forgot to bold @Deagonx

I know I can't ping people.

 

[Chariot190]

It never said that the other monsters cannot do it,

That isn't how this works. Abscence of evidence, is not evidence. Prove every character can do it.

that's the specific gimmick of the imp that it creates a special realm to attack,

Why does the Imp need to make a special sub-space to do it? Why is it the only character in the game more or less that can do so and only through that specific means? Why even specify at all if everything can do it (Yet, only the Imp, and only via making a special sub-space in which Soma's physical damage, targets the soul, ie, mana, instead)?

The argument, or at least the Creatures of Chaos page, says that basically every character has this as a intrinsic quality, the argument here is that it shouldn't be intrinsic for everything.

plus affecting magic isn't exclusive to that when anyone with curse/darkness powers can drain the magic of others.

Magic drain is not the same as damaging the soul. Not every Demon can do that either.

You keep saying other types of demons have stuff that is soul-based, that is true, I even said it was true and I feel there's better examples that exist. But even then, a dozen or so different enemies, still isn't every enemy, especially when they have unique attacks or methods to do so that other entities don't use.

Plus the entire point of Dracula's castle being a spiritual world and stated numerous times to literally be his magic incarnate alongside everything in the world having magical essence through the glyphs is the proof that it's Universal.

Nobody is saying Dracula can't have soul slop, he's the exception, along with Soma who is essentially just him, not the rule though.

For reference, Dracula, Soma, and the Castle itself I suppose having everything I'm fine with, they make it exceptionally clear, they have the power of all Creatures of Chaos, and is even the gameplay gimmick of two games in which they utilize the souls of demons to invoke their powers.

But they're canon outliers, and the very fact they're outliers in that they have that exception at all, and even then still need the demon's soul to have their powers, is pretty implicit in that not everything is in a similar case to them.

The glyphs example is the most blatant example so you're just dodging around all of the main arguments that was used for the argument that it cross scales.

Well no, nobody is saying magic and the soul aren't connected. That is fine. The problem is scaling anything that uses magic, to have every effect of magic basically.

So you admit that they're both still spiritual attacks at the end of the day? Thanks for that

You need to actually index things properly. As it is, the proile is misleading and dishonest, maybe not intentionally, but we should strive to index it as it is, not under a blanket, if they don't resist or use a blanket and only a very niche usage.

No I want people to actually pay attention to the arguments on why this cross scales in the first place. You admitting that this is indeed some form of soul hax but you questioning why everyone for some reason scales to this is just not paying attention to the main arguments on why this is universal to the series.

Your evidence is insufficient, at least to me, people do not like it, people don't think it holds up, there is a lack of evidence in play. Yes, mana and magic, can be argued to be the same. For argument's sake, I agree with that, there's a connection.
I have played a good chunk of the games, I have read the Creatures of Darkness page, etc, I have seen the arguments. But the evidence doesn't say every character has this as a universal trait, while a bunch of evidence points on the contrary, such as how the Imp's stuff even gets used to begin with, the fact characters having a slew of abilities is special in and of itself, etc.

Like, do we think the Imp has plant manip because the Alrune can do it and it does so via mana? It's the same thing.

That's literally how UES works and we have numerous examples of such.

And that is being contested. UES isn't a free get out of jail free card. There can be a UES, and still have unique facets to it. That is explicitly the case here anyhow. Simply sharing a power system doesn't grant anyone who uses it every ability it can grant, unless you're Dracula and co anyway.

It literally does when the game translates spiritual damage for the Imps to their magic being destroyed.

That is fine, it's also true that only the Imp can do so in that game. And only via a special uniqe method.
Why doesn't any other enemy do that? Why can the Imp only do so in a special zone (And as such, isn't something intrinsic to his standard attacks)?

Spiritual damage and magic being connected is fine, nobody is arguing it isn't, but that doesn't tackle the contention.

Put two and two together, the magic and one's soul is the same because why else would spiritual damage be targeting magic and not the normal health pool?

Gameplay, abstractions, a lot of things really, but nobody is arguing that lad. Do not strawman.

Everything else is evidence this cross scales because this is treated as a common thing in the franchise.

Then post examples of the average zombie damaging mana for example.
And like, it isn't common though? In DoS, the game with the Imp, it's the only thing in the game that does that, might be one or two more, but that's small given the dozens of demons and souls.
If you look over the other games and media, you'll find more, but the same applies there, a few cases among dozens. Less than 1% of known enemies having specific moves and abilities that most demons don't do, or even have access to, isn't common in the way you're presenting.

This is no different than with DMC on how devil arms are capable of damaging the soul with explicit evidence of such or GoW with magic being tied to the soul and how they're treated as universal across different pantheons despite not being spoonfed that literally every single monster in either franchise can do so.

That's not really a good case given those verses highly contentious and are liable to be downgraded all the same. I'm not here for whataboutisms, but given the whataboutisms, I'll do some of my own below.
I want the evidence every creature should have such things, much like how Soma has evidence he has everything, the same applies to a bat or merman.

Those two different types of attacks are still labeled as spiritual attacks, meaning they still have one thing in common, they target someone spiritually, so this isn't specific to one move or the other.

You need to actually index properly.
They have a shared aspect, but do completely different things, with completely different mechanics, with completely different results.

You can not just say "this is soul manip", and then act as if that encompasses all soul manip. You need to describe what's actually going on. The Imp, for example, has soul based body control that's described as a type of curse, that doesn't deal damage or damage the soul, but hinders movement. It can also create a special space where physical damage becomes spiritual.

It needs to be explained. Resisting the former for example wouldn't mean someone resists having their soul ripped out or destroyed. In the same vain resisting the soul damage wouldn't help if someone used soul based body control.

How exactly would it be a weakness of the ability when you literally need to GoW QTE out of the attack?

Because why wouldn't it be? It's only ever been broken out of.
We would assume it can be broken out of.

There is no showing of someone attempting to break out, and then failing. There is no sample size against those who "lack resistance" failing to do anything, but instead, taking those actively already effected, them breaking out eventually, and then saying it's resistance, when normally we'd just go "oh it can be broken out of, that's a weakness to the ability". If, for example, we have a case of the Imp doing so against someone and them not being able to break free the way the player's can, it'd be resistance. Not a very good one because at the end of the day they're still effected, but a minor one yes. Post it if it exists. Or stated too, that's also fine. As long as the evidence is given I'm fine with it.

The most blatant in game example of resisting an ability that someone tries to do to affect you? Them breaking out of it by mashing out would imply they broke out of it through resisting its influence rather than it just being a weakness.

They're actively effected, and need to break out of it.
We do not have an example to compare too.

I don't feel the need to repeat what was already said one paragraph above.

Yeah so you haven't played Grimoire of Souls because there's literally a basic type of zombie that can do this, they literally have those coated with dark magic that can curse and drain your magic.

You need to actively stop accussing others of not playing things, it's obnoxious, tedious, and is just bad conduct. Simply provide evidence if it exists.

Anyway, that zombie can have it, though that isn't exactly what a standard zombie does so my example still stands.
Though that is not the same thing as what the Imp is doing, and also not the same thing as what Magnus is doing. Furthermore, you don't actually resist it. Which goes back to the blanket resistances everyone is getting for the most part, including those who have never been touched by some of this.

This also goes to literally every other monster that has some form of dark magic as darkness translates to curse (and in the lore it's literally from dracula's castle that they get this dark magic) which causes this in the first place.

That is cool, that is fine, and is also a strawman.

Monster's that make active use of curses that effect mana, can have "soul [whatever they do with it]".
Nobody is saying they can't. But that is also not universal.

Bringing up the Castle itself or Dracula is a waste, nobody is saying the character noted to have every demonic power in verse wouldn't have this stuff, but he is not the same as every goon ever.

It literally does, Dracula's soul and Soma's magic being the same, Dracula's castle being the manifestation of his magic and being stated to be a spiritual world, alongside everything in grimoire of souls with the weapon lore on souls enhancing magic and magic being directly tied to one's stats and the glyphs lore where everything and everyone in existence has magical essences in their very being is the evidence that this cross scales.

That's not very good evidence though?

Dracula and Soma are exempt. Nobody is saying they don't have this, why you're focusing on them is beyond me. The castle is the same. They do have everything. Nobody is saying downgrade them, if someone is, I'll die on that hill myself and argue against it.

Weapon lore and souls enhancing magic, does not mean every character in verse has soul hax, or soul resistance. Not every character has these things in question, furthermore it would need to be properly described and indexed in what regard these things even effect the soul instead of blanketing it all at once.

And the glyphs.... Yeah? I'm sure most things in Castlevania have a soul and thus some semblance of mana. That doesn't mean they can manipulate it offensively, that doesn't mean they resist soul hax of varying kinds, that doesn't mean every attack that do secretly damages the soul.

If that's the evidence it cross scales, it's inefficient.

This entire time you're arguing that it's tied to specific individuals and not everyone else when the imps, dracula's castle, soma's soul, grimoire's lore and everything about glyphs is why this is something common,

3 of those activelly don't matter. Of course those 3 have soul hax, why does [1999 Zombie with a grenade] have it though?

Glyphs, doesn't mean they can use it the way the profiles frame they can. It's misleading.

The stuff with the imps and Magnus is the most blatant example of such.

It's actually a case of the game pointing out specific traits unique to them, bar the obvious fringe case like Soma who just has everything (And he has it via having the Imp Soul).

I'm not even arguing about resistances, I'm arguing that his actual power is literally tied to his spiritual attacks, something literally described and blatantly stated to **** with a random vampire's soul.

Well, I am? Why are you arguing with me about something I'm not talking about.

Also "his power". I'm not sure who you're talking about. Do you mean Dracula/Soma? Of course they have it, I've said they have it, like 8 times. Nobody is saying they don't have these abilities, they have everything.

I'm arguing fodder goons and stuff shouldn't get it tho, or like player characters, unless they have actual feats to say they do, or a statement, statements fine too as long as they explicit.

If it's being contested where's the arguments about the glyphs or the nature of dracula's magic and the soul or the spiritual world stuff among many other things?

I'm not gonna tackle points for a character I agree has everything.

You're not tackling the UES you're only tackling a subclass of examples where it's in your face that spiritual strikes is tied to magic.

And yet, most demons do not attack with spiritual strikes or via things that effect magic.


The problem here is conflation. From what I can see, especially based on Glyphs and what not.

You're taking anything that is used via magic, and applying it to everything that has magic under the argument of a UES. That is not what a UES is. You wouldn't give every character in DBZ time manipulation because Hit uses Ki to do it, and thus characters that have Ki can "in theory" do it too. Or every Stand in JoJo every Stand ability because they all take Stand energy, so if one has Stand energy, the others must too right? Or even just a basic magic system like in DND or DQ where a fireball spell takes mana, so surely that fireball wizard can do planetary mind hax because that also takes mana? That's basically what you're doing. Taking anything and everything that uses magic, and then slapping it on everything ever because they also have magic, completely disregarding how they use magic can vary both in potency, utility, and of course, what they actually do with it.

Well either way, I'm not so sure I want to continue this, put me down for what I said. If Glass posts a scan saying "everyone has this specific" I'll change my stance.

 

[Topaz404]

That isn't how this works. Abscence of evidence, is not evidence. Prove every character can do it.

Why does the Imp need to make a special sub-space to do it? Why is it the only character in the game more or less that can do so and only through that specific means? Why even specify at all if everything can do it (Yet, only the Imp, and only via making a special sub-space in which Soma's physical damage, targets the soul, ie, mana, instead)?

The argument, or at least the Creatures of Chaos page, says that basically every character has this as a intrinsic quality, the argument here is that it shouldn't be intrinsic for everything.

Magic drain is not the same as damaging the soul. Not every Demon can do that either.

You keep saying other types of demons have stuff that is soul-based, that is true, I even said it was true and I feel there's better examples that exist. But even then, a dozen or so different enemies, still isn't every enemy, especially when they have unique attacks or methods to do so that other entities don't use.

Nobody is saying Dracula can't have soul slop, he's the exception, along with Soma who is essentially just him, not the rule though.

For reference, Dracula, Soma, and the Castle itself I suppose having everything I'm fine with, they make it exceptionally clear, they have the power of all Creatures of Chaos, and is even the gameplay gimmick of two games in which they utilize the souls of demons to invoke their powers.

But they're canon outliers, and the very fact they're outliers in that they have that exception at all, and even then still need the demon's soul to have their powers, is pretty implicit in that not everything is in a similar case to them.

Well no, nobody is saying magic and the soul aren't connected. That is fine. The problem is scaling anything that uses magic, to have every effect of magic basically.

You need to actually index things properly. As it is, the proile is misleading and dishonest, maybe not intentionally, but we should strive to index it as it is, not under a blanket, if they don't resist or use a blanket and only a very niche usage.

Your evidence is insufficient, at least to me, people do not like it, people don't think it holds up, there is a lack of evidence in play. Yes, mana and magic, can be argued to be the same. For argument's sake, I agree with that, there's a connection.
I have played a good chunk of the games, I have read the Creatures of Darkness page, etc, I have seen the arguments. But the evidence doesn't say every character has this as a universal trait, while a bunch of evidence points on the contrary, such as how the Imp's stuff even gets used to begin with, the fact characters having a slew of abilities is special in and of itself, etc.

Like, do we think the Imp has plant manip because the Alrune can do it and it does so via mana? It's the same thing.

And that is being contested. UES isn't a free get out of jail free card. There can be a UES, and still have unique facets to it. That is explicitly the case here anyhow. Simply sharing a power system doesn't grant anyone who uses it every ability it can grant, unless you're Dracula and co anyway.

That is fine, it's also true that only the Imp can do so in that game. And only via a special uniqe method.
Why doesn't any other enemy do that? Why can the Imp only do so in a special zone (And as such, isn't something intrinsic to his standard attacks)?

Spiritual damage and magic being connected is fine, nobody is arguing it isn't, but that doesn't tackle the contention.

Gameplay, abstractions, a lot of things really, but nobody is arguing that lad. Do not strawman.

Then post examples of the average zombie damaging mana for example.
And like, it isn't common though? In DoS, the game with the Imp, it's the only thing in the game that does that, might be one or two more, but that's small given the dozens of demons and souls.
If you look over the other games and media, you'll find more, but the same applies there, a few cases among dozens. Less than 1% of known enemies having specific moves and abilities that most demons don't do, or even have access to, isn't common in the way you're presenting.

That's not really a good case given those verses highly contentious and are liable to be downgraded all the same. I'm not here for whataboutisms, but given the whataboutisms, I'll do some of my own below.
I want the evidence every creature should have such things, much like how Soma has evidence he has everything, the same applies to a bat or merman.

You need to actually index properly.
They have a shared aspect, but do completely different things, with completely different mechanics, with completely different results.

You can not just say "this is soul manip", and then act as if that encompasses all soul manip. You need to describe what's actually going on. The Imp, for example, has soul based body control that's described as a type of curse, that doesn't deal damage or damage the soul, but hinders movement. It can also create a special space where physical damage becomes spiritual.

It needs to be explained. Resisting the former for example wouldn't mean someone resists having their soul ripped out or destroyed. In the same vain resisting the soul damage wouldn't help if someone used soul based body control.

Because why wouldn't it be? It's only ever been broken out of.
We would assume it can be broken out of.

There is no showing of someone attempting to break out, and then failing. There is no sample size against those who "lack resistance" failing to do anything, but instead, taking those actively already effected, them breaking out eventually, and then saying it's resistance, when normally we'd just go "oh it can be broken out of, that's a weakness to the ability". If, for example, we have a case of the Imp doing so against someone and them not being able to break free the way the player's can, it'd be resistance. Not a very good one because at the end of the day they're still effected, but a minor one yes. Post it if it exists. Or stated too, that's also fine. As long as the evidence is given I'm fine with it.

They're actively effected, and need to break out of it.
We do not have an example to compare too.

I don't feel the need to repeat what was already said one paragraph above.

You need to actively stop accussing others of not playing things, it's obnoxious, tedious, and is just bad conduct. Simply provide evidence if it exists.

Anyway, that zombie can have it, though that isn't exactly what a standard zombie does so my example still stands.
Though that is not the same thing as what the Imp is doing, and also not the same thing as what Magnus is doing. Furthermore, you don't actually resist it. Which goes back to the blanket resistances everyone is getting for the most part, including those who have never been touched by some of this.

That is cool, that is fine, and is also a strawman.

Monster's that make active use of curses that effect mana, can have "soul [whatever they do with it]".
Nobody is saying they can't. But that is also not universal.

Bringing up the Castle itself or Dracula is a waste, nobody is saying the character noted to have every demonic power in verse wouldn't have this stuff, but he is not the same as every goon ever.

That's not very good evidence though?

Dracula and Soma are exempt. Nobody is saying they don't have this, why you're focusing on them is beyond me. The castle is the same. They do have everything. Nobody is saying downgrade them, if someone is, I'll die on that hill myself and argue against it.

Weapon lore and souls enhancing magic, does not mean every character in verse has soul hax, or soul resistance. Not every character has these things in question, furthermore it would need to be properly described and indexed in what regard these things even effect the soul instead of blanketing it all at once.

And the glyphs.... Yeah? I'm sure most things in Castlevania have a soul and thus some semblance of mana. That doesn't mean they can manipulate it offensively, that doesn't mean they resist soul hax of varying kinds, that doesn't mean every attack that do secretly damages the soul.

If that's the evidence it cross scales, it's inefficient.

3 of those activelly don't matter. Of course those 3 have soul hax, why does [1999 Zombie with a grenade] have it though?

Glyphs, doesn't mean they can use it the way the profiles frame they can. It's misleading.

It's actually a case of the game pointing out specific traits unique to them, bar the obvious fringe case like Soma who just has everything (And he has it via having the Imp Soul).

Well, I am? Why are you arguing with me about something I'm not talking about.

Also "his power". I'm not sure who you're talking about. Do you mean Dracula/Soma? Of course they have it, I've said they have it, like 8 times. Nobody is saying they don't have these abilities, they have everything.

I'm arguing fodder goons and stuff shouldn't get it tho, or like player characters, unless they have actual feats to say they do, or a statement, statements fine too as long as they explicit.


I'm not gonna tackle points for a character I agree has everything.

And yet, most demons do not attack with spiritual strikes or via things that effect magic.


The problem here is conflation. From what I can see, especially based on Glyphs and what not.

You're taking anything that is used via magic, and applying it to everything that has magic under the argument of a UES. That is not what a UES is. You wouldn't give every character in DBZ time manipulation because Hit uses Ki to do it, and thus characters that have Ki can "in theory" do it too. Or every Stand in JoJo every Stand ability because they all take Stand energy, so if one has Stand energy, the others must too right? Or even just a basic magic system like in DND or DQ where a fireball spell takes mana, so surely that fireball wizard can do planetary mind hax because that also takes mana? That's basically what you're doing. Taking anything and everything that uses magic, and then slapping it on everything ever because they also have magic, completely disregarding how they use magic can vary both in potency, utility, and of course, what they actually do with it.

Well either way, I'm not so sure I want to continue this, put me down for what I said. If Glass posts a scan saying "everyone has this specific" I'll change my stance.

I believe your ready to vote? If so, where should i place you?

 

[Chariot190]

I believe your ready to vote? If so, where should i place you?

Mostly the same as Bambu ig.

Though mind you, only for the characters that like, actually don't have it. I have issues with it being universal (though some stuff should just get tossed like parahax), not some of this existing at all.
Those who took hits with Magnus, enemies that can survive Imp soul stuff better than others (which do exist, obviously a end game enemy ain't dying in one hit compared to the mook goon village bat), a few bosses being immune, etc, Belmonts who actually get hit by shit and shrug it off, etc can keep stuff, they'd have the showings of course. It's just everything else needs to go if they're featless.

 

[Theglassman12]

@Chariot190 Every character having access to magic and the soul and magic being one and the same in verse is the proof.

The page having everyone have soul hax is through the fact that the lore treats magic and souls as one and the same, the imp being able to deal spiritual damage and it targeting magic is the most blatant example of such as they're directly spelling it out for us that the magic is one's spirit.

The game translating spiritual attacks to the magic being drained from every hit implies otherwise.

That's not my point with Dracula, if Alucard; someone who's far more knowledgeable about how the world works since he's been there since the start describes the magic that Soma has and Dracula's soul itself being one and the same, and that the castle itself, a magical creation of dracula literally described as a spiritual world, how is that not any indication that magic and souls are treated the same? AKA anyone familiar with magic is controlling and manipulating the soul in general?

Except that every character ever in Castlevania isn't scaled to literally every random application of magic, otherwise literally everyone would've had every ability of the Glyphs just because everyone has magical essence despite Shanoa and Ecclesia in general having more specific control over it than others. They're scaling across based on the most basic thing about what magic is, which is that it's the soul of someone.

The cosmology blog itself literally explains the entire purpose of magic and how souls are tied to it, plus I'm in the process of collecting all of the grimoire of souls scans which explains far more in depth of magic and souls being interchangeable and more proof for the UES. Is it my fault that people didn't read the cosmology blog that's on the verse page which explains how the series works?

Alraune's plant magic is not the same as the imp and you know it, don't make these apples to oranges comparisons with these random monsters when we have numerous statements on magic and souls being used interchangeably and not magic and plants, otherwise I'd have argued that every character would've had plant manipulation from that alone.

This is not just simply sharing a power system, it's the fact the series literally treats magic and souls as one and the same, meaning if you're able to manipulate magic (something everyone has in the series) you can control and manipulate souls, which you've already agreed to so why are you saying this is character specific when you've conceded to the main arguments that magic and souls are the same?

Said special unique method is also not the only way they have spiritual attacks, you can say that they're separate types of soul hax but at the end of the day it's still soul hax if that attack is still labeled as a spiritual attack by the game itself.

What part of this is strawmanning when I'm explaining why this is used for evidence that magic and souls are the same?

It isn't common despite the fact you already agreed that magic and souls are treated as one and the same, ok.

Not really a point when it's still accepted and numerous other franchises carry the same effect with their UES having default abilities due to the nature of such. You can say DMC and GoW are contentious but them among other franchises like Marvel have this as something box standard for those familiar with its magic system. Unless they're nuked completely they're still examples to be used in regards to cross scaling with abilities.

You do realize Soul Manipulation the page itself doesn't remotely break down into sub categories of soul manipulation right? The first paragraph literally says this:

Soul Manipulation is the ability to interact with one's soul or the souls of others. This ability ranges from being able to project the power of one's soul outward, grasping and ripping the souls of others out of their bodies, outright consuming souls to gain power, among other applications.

Nothing here remotely says that Soul Manipulation is limited to only attacking the soul, and that other applications of soul manipulation is still viable, so this is less of you arguing it's not soul manipulation and you just saying there's different forms of soul manipulation, which congrats, that's literally the description of the page itself. This is still soul hax regardless of how you describe the effects of it.

The description of the attack, especially in the strategy guide literally says to mash buttons to break out of it, that's literally classic God of War QTE shenanigans where Kratos resists and breaks out of a spell that was affecting him, which is the base for some of his most iconic resistances. Unless scripted QTEs aren't viable to use for indexing purposes I don't see why this is invalid to use.

I'm only saying that because GoS literally has these zombies with these effects in the first place. Also it doesn't matter if it's not exactly what the imp is doing with the spatial realm or what Magnus is doing (which is literally his normal attacks and not something special), they're all classified under affecting the soul in some way shape or form, and magic and souls are the same in the franchise, so everyone that has magic is able to affect the soul, I really don't understand why I have to repeat this process but apparently I do.

Can you please pay attention to the points I'm making with Dracula and Soma and his castle ffs? Me bringing up Dracula's magic and Soma's soul being one and the same is NOT me saying that every monster has dracula's magic, this is me saying that Alucard, one of the most knowledgeable characters in the franchise is spelling out to Soma that souls and magic are one and the same, as that's literally his entire story that he's the reincarnation of dracula due to the magic he has. Dracula's castle being a spiritual world and a manifestation of his magic is NOT me saying this is scaling to every monster (there's a reason not every creature of chaos has dark lord status), this is me saying that the series flat out tells us that a literal manifestation of magic is yet again described as something spiritual or soul based. Meaning that magic and the soul are the same, and every single monster and hunter in the franchise has some familiarity with magic and can utilize it in combat, so their applications are universal as literally everyone who can fight has some knowledge with magic. The glyphs are proof that literally everyone and everything in the franchise has magic, otherwise how the hell is Shanoa able to draw power of the glyphs from every monster and the environment itself? Again you keep saying that it's not the specific type of soul hax, but that's irrelevant as Soul hax on the wiki is not divided into sub categories at all. So can you bring up anything else that isn't just saying it's not the exact type of soul hax when the sub divisions don't even exist?

1999 Zombie or literally any monster you can mention literally is infused with magic in someway shape or form, the glyphs literally showing everything in the world has magic is proof of that, also again Glyphs being there isn't me saying they use glyphs, the glyphs is literally the in lore universe explaining that all things in the world has magic, which is how Shanoa even channels the glyph's powers. If none of them had any traces of magic then the glyphs wouldn't be possible for Shanoa to absorb, and literally everything has it.

Specific traits like the fact that spiritual damage is translated to the magic itself being affected? Again you've already agreed that souls and magic are one and the same so repeating that it's specific to them is irrelevant as everything has magic.

I'm talking about Magnus the Incubus, his powers is flat out stated to be spiritual power and spiritual attacks, and breaking it made him weaker. If it made him weaker and magic is literally tied to one's strength in the series, souls and magic are one and the same here.

Chariot stop with this willful misinterpretation here, that's not what's being argued here. If I argued that literally everyone in the series has literally every single application of magic ever, everyone would have glyph, Belnades, Renard and Belmont magic, but they don't and I gave them the most fundamental form of cross scaling with magic and souls being the same. Also as for your Jojo example this isn't me giving every Jojo every stand ability, I'm doing the equivalent of giving every stand the innate abilities of what a stand has, where they're invisible to normal people and that harming the stands would result in the user being hurt as well.

Anyways this is the last I'll comment on this and I'll just wait for the staff inputs.

 

[Chariot190]

@Chariot190 Every character having access to magic and the soul and magic being one and the same in verse is the proof.

No it isn't. That is just proof they have a soul.

The page having everyone have soul hax is through the fact that the lore treats magic and souls as one and the same,

Nobody said otherwise. This is not proof to what's being contested.

the imp being able to deal spiritual damage and it targeting magic is the most blatant example of such as they're directly spelling it out for us that the magic is one's spirit.

That is cool and I can agree magic and the soul, in fact, connected by some means, whether directly or indirectly, maybe even the exact same. But that is not what's being contested.

The game translating spiritual attacks to the magic being drained from every hit implies otherwise.

That is cool. And also not evidence to what's being contested.

That's not my point with Dracula, if Alucard; someone who's far more knowledgeable about how the world works since he's been there since the start describes the magic that Soma has and Dracula's soul itself being one and the same, and that the castle itself, a magical creation of dracula literally described as a spiritual world, how is that not any indication that magic and souls are treated the same?

Literally nobody is saying magic and the soul aren't connected.

AKA anyone familiar with magic is controlling and manipulating the soul in general?

Manipulating one's own soul to use various magic, is not what is actually written on the profiles. What is written, is that all CoC has magic and thus can attack the soul or affect the soul.

This is not the same thing.

Except that every character ever in Castlevania isn't scaled to literally every random application of magic,

Maybe not, but they are being scaled to a bunch they shouldn't be still.

otherwise literally everyone would've had every ability of the Glyphs just because everyone has magical essence despite Shanoa and Ecclesia in general having more specific control over it than others. They're scaling across based on the most basic thing about what magic is, which is that it's the soul of someone.

Doesn't matter.
The Imp can create a special zone where its attacks change from physical to spiritual, Magnus can claw at one's soul. Now prove Skeleton Knight can do that too because that's what the profiles implicate and even outright state on the attacking part.

The cosmology blog itself literally explains the entire purpose of magic and how souls are tied to it,

I do not care what the cosmology blog says, it doesn't prove what is being contested.
Nobody is saying souls and magic are not connected.

plus I'm in the process of collecting all of the grimoire of souls scans which explains far more in depth of magic and souls being interchangeable and more proof for the UES.

Nobody is saying magic and souls aren't connected, nobody is saying there isn't a UES.

Is it my fault that people didn't read the cosmology blog that's on the verse page which explains how the series works?

The blog doesn't say what you're arguing. I wouldn't saying anything is your fault, at least not right now.
That might be the case in the future if one doesn't want to index and detail stuff as it should be, at the moment, I'm just chalking it up to being an older profile.

Alraune's plant magic is not the same as the imp and you know it,

Of course it isn't the same, which is my point, none of this is the same, yet it's being scaled to everyone.

don't make these apples to oranges comparisons with these random monsters when we have numerous statements on magic and souls being used interchangeably and not magic and plants,

Magic and souls being connected, does not mean every character with magic can create special astral zones in which all physical damage that they deal is converted to soul damage instead (Which in and of itself is proof it isn't an intrinsic quality they all have, as not even the character who has that ability, has intrinsic spiritual damage before doing that), nor can they deal a magic soul based curse that causes one to be immobilized.

otherwise I'd have argued that every character would've had plant manipulation from that alone.

That is not my concern, it is precisely what is happening here, just with something different.

This is not just simply sharing a power system, it's the fact the series literally treats magic and souls as one and the same, meaning if you're able to manipulate magic (something everyone has in the series) you can control and manipulate souls, which you've already agreed to so why are you saying this is character specific when you've conceded to the main arguments that magic and souls are the same?

That isn't at all what it means. You're extrapolating, greatly at that. All while ignoring 95% of them literally can't.

The most, the absolute most you could say, is that they can all manipulate their own soul to a minor degree, because their magic and their soul is connected.
That is all this suggests.

This does not mean they can rip out someone else's soul, this does not mean they can destroy someone's soul, this does not mean they can alter and manipulate the soul of others, this does not mean they can drain the soul of others to amp or heal themselves, or this, or that.

These all special, unique, moves or abilities specific enemies have, the average Zombie can not do all that. The profiles all state they can attack and affect souls, that is what is being contested, not the fact characters happen to have souls to begin with.

Said special unique method is also not the only way they have spiritual attacks, you can say that they're separate types of soul hax but at the end of the day it's still soul hax if that attack is still labeled as a spiritual attack by the game itself.

Yes, soul body control, soul rip, soul drain, and more, can all be classified as spiritual attacks.
The problem is, these all do very different things, and the methodology is not shared between all demons and enemies. You are listing everything under a blanket soul hax, and listing it for everything.
And despite the active admittance they aren't the same, which I will take as proof it should be removed, the profile states that all basic CoC can attack souls, even though right here you're agreeing that isn't particularly true.

This is just refusal to index things properly, and blanketing everything under "soul manip", which is extremely misleading and subject for abuse, most of all, subject to abuse unintentionally. A normal dude can read the profile, and they simply wouldn't even know they're exploiting the wording because why would they doubt what it says?

Index stuff properly, I have nothing else to say beyond that.

What part of this is strawmanning when I'm explaining why this is used for evidence that magic and souls are the same?

Because nobody was arguing that to begin with. It's also not evidence for what you're being asked to prove.

It isn't common despite the fact you already agreed that magic and souls are treated as one and the same, ok.

Sigh.

Not really a point when it's still accepted

This is a CRT. It being accepted doesn't matter.

and numerous other franchises carry the same effect with their UES having default abilities due to the nature of such. You can say DMC and GoW are contentious but them among other franchises like Marvel have this as something box standard for those familiar with its magic system. Unless they're nuked completely they're still examples to be used in regards to cross scaling with abilities.

I do not care about other verses. We aren't downgrading them, we are not upgrading them, we aren't doing anything with them, this is about Castlevania. Marvel is ALSO contentious.

They aren't examples to be used for anything, they're their own verse. Each verse should be indexed on its own merits and context, because context can vary.

This is a non-argument. And also another whataboutism, as such again I will bring forth some of my own below.
This is just saying "These verses do something like this, so it's ok", without supplying the evidence or proof actually asked of you.

You do realize Soul Manipulation the page itself doesn't remotely break down into sub categories of soul manipulation right? The first paragraph literally says this:

I was recently told by a mod about framing things with wording like "Do you realize/think [thing]". Apparently, that type of framing isn't appreciated here, so I ask you to do the same. Allegedly it's because it implicates the other person thinks the preceeding response, I don't exactly think so, but it is what it is, and I've been taking ample effort to not word stuff like that, and I'm not one for double standards. Do not do it again.

Anyhow, I am aware, it is on us, as well as the actual profiles themselves, to specify though, what a character's "Manip" in question can actually do, or what it encompasses.

Nothing here remotely says that Soul Manipulation is limited to only attacking the soul,

Nope, but that's what's being argued to be removed from the Creatures of Chaos as a universal ability.

Especially because many characters have resistances to soul manipulation, framed as soul damage, for that very reason.

and that other applications of soul manipulation is still viable,

Of course soul hax can be used in many ways, the problem, again, is that the Creatures of Chaos page goes "Here's what the soul hax can do", and then goes "Btw every characters has this".

This is misleading, this is wrong, the way the profiles, at the moment are written, have it so every character with Basic CoC abilities, have the Imp's or Magnus' specific soul-based attacks. They do not.

so this is less of you arguing it's not soul manipulation and you just saying there's different forms of soul manipulation,

Yep. If you really, really, want to go that route, I suppose every character in Castlevania does in fact have a soul, and I suppose a good chunk can use their soul to utilize mana to utilize varying forms of magic (I say most because a handful still can't even do that).

This, is not what the profiles say though. They just say basic goons have Soul Hax, and lists examples of stuff that isn't universal, like soul damage, which is written in a way that makes it so they have it, which then leads into resistances covering those specific things, even though it isn't universal, and it's honestly just not how we do things on the wiki, at least not within the past half decade. Usually we strive to be detailed to avoid this type of situation.

which congrats, that's literally the description of the page itself. This is still soul hax regardless of how you describe the effects of it.

Index things properly please. You're actively conceeding various characters and demons have different types of soul hax of which it isn't all shared between them, You're agreeing with me at this point, and in such a case, actually index it properly, only list the universal aspects on the CoC page that they actually have, rewrite it to actually reflect what they can do with it, and then remove the resistances where not applicable.

The description of the attack, especially in the strategy guide literally says to mash buttons to break out of it, that's literally classic God of War QTE shenanigans where Kratos resists and breaks out of a spell that was affecting him, which is the base for some of his most iconic resistances.

Please do not use GoW as an example. This also didn't tackle a single thing I said.
If that's the case with him, that should be looked at again too.

Also, is that strategy guide canon? I noticed it was English. Castlevania is obviously a japanese game.
Of course, I'm not denying it can't be canon. For example the MGS Piggyback guides count for canon, and they're European. But that's because they worked directly with Kojipro and Kojima for example.
Is that the same here? Otherwise the primary Japanese guide should be used.

Unless scripted QTEs aren't viable to use for indexing purposes I don't see why this is invalid to use.

They are, the problem is frame of reference.
For this specific attack, we only have the player characters. we only have examples of the attack being broken. Keyword is only.

This is not the same as Kratos being petrified, and then breaking free or whatever, because in that case we know that say, a Gorgn's petrification, is permanent or lasts much longer or is much more potent usually, because we've seen it used on a 3rd party sample size like civillians. So when Kratos breaks free, we can go "Oh, he broke free and mitigated it, even though these other dudes could not. That is resistance".

This doesn't apply here, the Imp has only ever been broken free of, unless there's a case where it's been used on someone to cross compare. If it has then sure, it's resistance, if not, we can not assume it is. A statement would also work, even just a mundane they deal with that specific thing better. If such a thing has happened, post it.

I'm only saying that because GoS literally has these zombies with these effects in the first place. Also it doesn't matter if it's not exactly what the imp is doing with the spatial realm or what Magnus is doing (which is literally his normal attacks and not something special), they're all classified under affecting the soul in some way shape or form,

Please index things properly. Remove anything that isn't universal. You can keep the soul=mana slop, but in no way should we be listing Imp stuff, Magnus stuff, mana drain (We don't, I don't think? But you've brought that up as an argument), and more as examples for the universal blanket, and especially not when it comes to resistances.

You are effectively agreeing here.

and magic and souls are the same in the franchise,

Sure.

so everyone that has magic is able to affect the soul,

Nope. Nothing says that, nothing shows that. Only a handful actually can, and the fact they can, is usually noted, or is a special ability.
1999 AoS Zombie can not damage mana, drain mana, create a special zone that swaps physical to soul, can not swap HP with Mana like Killer Mantle, can't do anything really, just shank you and throw grenades.

Yes this thing has mana (Not much but it does), but it can not use it in a way that matters, it simply has mana, aka, it simply has a soul if we treat mana and souls as the same, but it can't do anything with it.

Which is to say, a character having a soul, isn't exactly soul manipulation. And a character manipulating their own soul to use as a source of power, isn't the same as all the stuff the profiles implicate or even straight up list that they have.

I really don't understand why I have to repeat this process but apparently I do.

You need to give proof for what's being contested. Characters having souls, and mana and souls being connected, are not what you need to prove here.

Can you please pay attention to the points I'm making with Dracula and Soma and his castle ffs?

I did, they're either not what's being asked of you, already agreed upon, or not relevant.

Me bringing up Dracula's magic and Soma's soul being one and the same is NOT me saying that every monster has dracula's magic, this is me saying that Alucard, one of the most knowledgeable characters in the franchise is spelling out to Soma that souls and magic are one and the same, as that's literally his entire story that he's the reincarnation of dracula due to the magic he has.

Yes. This isn't what's being argued, nor effects what is being argued.

Dracula's castle being a spiritual world and a manifestation of his magic is NOT me saying this is scaling to every monster (there's a reason not every creature of chaos has dark lord status),

Nobody said otherwise. Also that scan is ironically in the basic creatures tab.

this is me saying that the series flat out tells us that a literal manifestation of magic is yet again described as something spiritual or soul based. Meaning that magic and the soul are the same,

Yes, nobody said otherwise.

and every single monster and hunter in the franchise has some familiarity with magic and can utilize it in combat,

That is objectively not true. Many monsters can't.

so their applications are universal as literally everyone who can fight has some knowledge with magic.

Not how this works. Characters sharing a UES, doesn't mean everything that UES can do is able to be done by every character.

The glyphs are proof that literally everyone and everything in the franchise has magic, otherwise how the hell is Shanoa able to draw power of the glyphs from every monster and the environment itself?

Yes things have souls. Nobody said otherwise.

Again you keep saying that it's not the specific type of soul hax, but that's irrelevant as Soul hax on the wiki is not divided into sub categories at all.

Index things properly please. The goal is to index things in sufficient detail.

Not all mindhax is the same, not all biomanip is the same, not all time manip is the same (This is an obvious example). These abilities usually don't get sub-categorized, but we still explain it in detail, because we explain what the characters we index actually do.

For example, given you brought for other verses.
Dio Brando can stop time. Jotaro can resist it. Do we just say it's time manip and Jotaro resists time manip and call it a day? No, we specify it's time stop, specify to what extent they resist it and how.
The way the Castlevania profiles are framed, would be like if we slapped a blanketed Time Manip res onto Jotaro, don't elaborate what type of time manip he's actually resisting, and then use examples of King Crimson deleting time-space, or BTD straight up blowing up time as examples of the time manip in question and say "Time Manip (Stands can destroy time)", even though Jotaro, despite resisting time stop, absolutely doesn't resist the very destruction of time itself, and has even been effected by it (Such is the case with quite a few of the Castlevania characters being affected by various methods of soul manip).
And then arguing time manip is time manip, so it's fine.

The Castlevania profiles need to be indexed properly, what soul manip each character actually has, needs to be indexed, what each one can resist, actually needs to be indexed. This shouldn't even be argued, we should just actually index stuff best we can, not shrug and go "soul manip is soul manip" even if they're anything but the same.

So can you bring up anything else that isn't just saying it's not the exact type of soul hax when the sub divisions don't even exist?

As above, we still index stuff like that and have for many years.

1999 Zombie or literally any monster you can mention literally is infused with magic in someway shape or form,

Yes, they have a soul, but as explained above, that doesn't mean they can really do anything with it half the time.

the glyphs literally showing everything in the world has magic is proof of that,

Yes but not relevant to what's being contested.

also again Glyphs being there isn't me saying they use glyphs,

Nobody said as much.

the glyphs is literally the in lore universe explaining that all things in the world has magic,

Yep.

which is how Shanoa even channels the glyph's powers.

Yep.

If none of them had any traces of magic then the glyphs wouldn't be possible for Shanoa to absorb, and literally everything has it.

Yep, things can have souls and mana, what matters is how they use them.

Specific traits like the fact that spiritual damage is translated to the magic itself being affected?

Which is something not every character can do, and the few that can, is done in a specific way.

Again you've already agreed that souls and magic are one and the same so repeating that it's specific to them is irrelevant as everything has magic.

Sigh.
This is, again, like the Hit example given you like to bring up other verses.

Every character in DBZ has Ki>Hit can manipulate time with Ki>Ki is capable of time manip>Everything has Ki.

And then the Ki profile goes "Time Manip (Ki can manipulate time)". Made worse because Ki has aspects of the spirit involved.
So everything has time manip.

That is essentially the logic at play here. As said last post, you're conflating a shared UES to blanket specific things done with that UES as if everyone has it. Time Manip is specific to Hit, in much the same way the soul damaging stuff is unique to specific demons, and as such, despite everything having a soul, these abilities should not be given to everything because of it. If you conceede there's differences, which you have, you should be agreeing to rewrite it at the very least, not double down and say it is fine.

I'm talking about Magnus the Incubus, his powers is flat out stated to be spiritual power and spiritual attacks, and breaking it made him weaker. If it made him weaker and magic is literally tied to one's strength in the series, souls and magic are one and the same here.

Yep. Not relevant to the point of contention though.

Chariot stop with this willful misinterpretation here, that's not what's being argued here. If I argued that literally everyone in the series has literally every single application of magic ever, everyone would have glyph,

Accuse me of "willful misintepretation" and I'll be taking this to RVR or Hr or wherever staff complaints get brought to. As a staff you should know better. That isn't in good faith.
I am simply responding to the arguments given, the problem is what you are giving, is not what is being asked of you or contested to begin with.

Anyway, no, it doesn't matter if that's what's being argued here, that's what the profiles say in the end, and thus what the CRT is tackling.
It might not be what you, in particular, at this very instance, is arguing, but it is on the profiles, and as such, should be worded, framed and index differently to properly convey what is actually the case instead of being exceptionally misleading, or at worst, downright wrong.

Belnades, Renard and Belmont magic, but they don't and I gave them the most fundamental form of cross scaling with magic and souls being the same.

Not relevant. It is not the same, and if it is, the profiles need to be fixed to convey the info properly and thus would need to be overhauled.

Regardless, you failed to give the evidence asked of you. And essentially conceeded on not all soul manip being the same, with not all lads being able to do said soul manip the same way, but argued we, the wiki, do not differentiate. I have nothing else to say here. This was all the proof I needed, or moreso lackthereof.

"Soul Manipulation (Magic is capable of attacking/ affecting the soul in the series,)"

This is what is written. This is what's listed on every profile for the most part. Every CoC is given Soul manip that is capable of attacking and effecting the soul, as that is what is written, and then denoted to be a blanket universal ability almost everything has.
What Glass has argued for, is not what is listed. Simply having magic, is not the same as using that magic to attack or affect the souls of others. As the profiles, at this time, are written, make it so even the most basic skeleton has soul attacking magic.

I agree with the OP, we shouldn't be giving every Creature of Chaos soul manip for simply having a soul.
We shouldn't be using scans that are framed and implicate every Creature of Chaos can do said things when they objectively can't. We shouldn't be giving numerous characters a blanketed resistance to soul manip for that same reason.
All Glass has given evidence for, is the souls and magic do be connected, and that the vast majority of things have a soul, which is fine, I don't think anyone disagreed with that.
Zero evidence has been given that every demon has intrinsic soul damage on their attacks, can do the aforementioned variants of soul manip (Immobilization, Astral/Damage swap, Soul Drain, Soul Damage), and as such, any scans implicating as such, should be removed, the same goes for resistances against said things unless the characters in question actually resisted said thing.

Instead, I propose that we simply list the Glyph scans and whatnot and write it as
"Creatures of Chaos have mana, which is the soul".
Because that's essentially what's actually the case.
But should also specify not all Creatures of Chaos can even use said mana they have to begin with. Which makes me think it shouldn't really be a blanket ability as just having a soul isn't exactly an ability. But whatever, I can agree to at least list they have mana, how they use it, or what it can do would vary tho. Anyway unless actual evidence is posted, my vote is solid.