Flash/Arrowverse Revisions

[ByAsura]

A follow up from this thread https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/2973254

Due to the Wiki's newly revised Kinetic Energy Standards, there has been discussion about rescaling the speedsters of Arrowverse, and all those who scale in power. The speedsters would scale to Firestorm, who withstood a nuclear bomb with a yield of 1 megaton at point blank range, and even absorbed this energy entirely in Legends of Tomorrow, Season 1 Episode 2: Pilot.

• Vandal Savage: "This is a variable yield nuclear warhead. Capable of producing a blast equivalent to 1 Megaton of TNT."

This is consistent with another feat from The Flash Season 1, Episode 13, where Firestorm's instability would create a thermonuclear blast capable of destroying Central City, forcing him to keep a distance of 30 miles outside the city, because that's the minimum distance of safety

• Any attempt we make to separate the two of them could be catastrophic... a nuclear explosion. And a nuclear explosion of this magnitude would level this entire city.
• There's not going to be a timetable if Central City goes up in a mushroom cloud.
• Middle of nowhere, 30 miles outside of Central City. Minimum safe distance.
• Sir, we have a thermonuclear detonation approximately 30 miles north east of Central City.

Who would scale? Eobard Thawne would specifically scale. In The Flash, Season 1, Episode 22: Rogue Air, the Reverse Flash easily fodderizes Firestorm, Oliver Queen and the Flash at the same time. And in The Man in the Yellow Suit, Eobard withstands his attacks with minimal damage. This would also scale to people more powerful than him, such as late Season 2 Flash, Zoom, Savitar, etc. Early and mid Season 1 Flash could go back to his original ratings, with a Higher after his amp

• Attack Potency: Small Building level (Defeated Tony Woodward, meta-human capable of transforming into steel, by accelerating to supersonic speeds. Stopped a tornado), Higher after his amp (Overloaded Farooq Gibran, who had previously absorbed his powers with ease. His cells were stated to produce more energy than they did previously. Briefly fought with his future self after he defeated Trajectory, although he was easily overpowered and defeated)

Another thing brought up by in the thread was Thawne's rating during Legends of Tomorrow. In particular, the Reverse Flash isn't shown to be stronger than his alternate-self in Season 1, who, while admittedly weakened due to a broken connection with the speed force, manages to constantly supercharge himself using a Tachyon Power Source in his wheel chair. He also states he gained his powers by creating the Negative Speed Force, meaning it would scale to all his keys

• I used to idolize your father. I wanted to be just like him. But that was not my fate. I was to be the reverse. Opposite of him... in every way. So instead of tapping into the Speed Force to access my powers... I created my own.

TL;DR: All characters who scale to Eobard Thawne would recieve an upgrade to Small City level on the basis that Firestorm is capable of both absorbing and tanking a nuclear bomb, and could create a blast capable of destroying Central City after approaching a melt-down. Early Season 1 Flash, and those who scale to him, would recieve a downgrade to Small Building level or Small Building level, possibly Higher.

 

[Andytrenom]

Do you think early season 2 Flash will scale? Post-Tachyon obviously will.

 

[ByAsura]

I'm not sure. I think he should be at least somewhat comparable, or superior to Firestorm at the very least given that he was oneshot with no way of defending himself or breaking out of the attack.

 

[Andytrenom]

I mean, is there some actual concrete evidence for scaling?

 

[ByAsura]

Aside from that brief fight, no.

 

[Andytrenom]

Brief fight between Flash and Firestorm?

 

[ByAsura]

I thought you meant Reverse-Flash. There's nothing for Flash to scale, he didn't even fight Deathstorm directly, let alone Firestorm.

 

[Andytrenom]

Yeah I'm talking about Barry, what would his tier be before Tachyon enhancement?

Lightning is a thing but that has some things about it that create a bit of a complication.

 

[ByAsura]

While it isn't natural, the characters consistently state speedster lightning equals cloud-to-ground lightning in output, even placing its power within the gigajoule range. So what about this?

Attack Potency: At least Small Building level, possibly far higher (Vastly superior to before and continued to grow more powerful through training, briefly overpowered Trajectory, who collapsed a bridge by repeatedly running across its surface. Should be superior to Zoom's fodder villains, who can collapse buildings. Fought on par with the Reverse-Flash, although he has quickly overpowered and defeated after a relatively short fight. Easily defeated an Eobard Thawne from a point in time before he was sent back in time)

 

[Andytrenom]

The problem is actually this, the statement that puts the lightning in the gigajoules range is also the same statement that is currently used to justify the lightning being 1 megaton. So rating Barry at 8-C due to the gigajoules statement may become cherry picking (or whatever the phrase is)

 

[ByAsura]

There's other statements about that (such as Godspeed). So I'd say the 1 megaton nuke is just bad math on the writer's part and should be removed. But if it makes you feel that way, I'll take it away as there's more feats on this level.

Edit: Would Mercury Labs be a skyscraper (minimum 30 storeys)?

 

[Andytrenom]

I do think Mercury labs would be a skyscraper and hence High 8-C but Siren is probably the only one it applies to, since Flash would already scale to Low 7-B by this point (Unless someone comes in and debunks the that rating I guess)

Would early season 2 Flash even scale to Godspeed? While it's kinda obvious that his lightning being 5 gigajoules is supposed to imply speedster lightning is comparable to the real thing, Barry stating his own lightning to be 1 gigajoules kinda tramples on the idea I love this show, but I would really like some consistency from it some day

 

[ByAsura]

You're right, this was from Episode 22, so I'll remove that and the lightning stuff. Also, Zoom should be vastly superior to Deathstorm as his leader that keeps him in check with fear (Killer Frost of Earth-2 consistently says no-one would dare face him), and easily killed him with a stab to the back.

 

[Andytrenom]

So with the new justification, things are still not perfect.

Trajectory's feat should be calced and collapsing a building doesn't automatically mean 8-C either since, as far as I know, the tier is based on creating building sized explosions

 

[ByAsura]

Which part are you referring to?

It's more a supporting feat. This is a quick, very basic calc using fragmentation (6 j/cc) of concrete since it did seem to mostly break up even before falling. Assuming the bridge section has a length of 10 meters (which is relatively accurate given the scale of the cars), width of 6 meters (average road width, doubled due to the amount of lanes) and a height of 1 meter gets a result of 0.086042065 Tons of TNT (Small Building level), however the feat could reach Wall level if divided by just 20.

 

[Andytrenom]

Attack Potency: Building level (Vastly superior to before and continued to grow more powerful through training, briefly overpowered Trajectory, who collapsed a bridge by repeatedly running across its surface. Should be superior to Zoom's fodder villains, who can collapse buildings)

This is what I was referring to

 

[ByAsura]

What's not perfect though? I got rid of the lightning stuff and all that.

 

[Andytrenom]

I just told you, collapsing a building isn't automatically 8-C because the baseline for 8-C is likely based on creating explosions the size of buildings, the trajectory feat also isn't 8-C unless it's calced to be such

Apart from that, the growing stronger won't also justify 8-C since his 9-A feat isn't in the upper border of the tier

 

[ByAsura]

Alright, I'll turn it into 9-A, likely far higher.

 

[Andytrenom]

Went through the Arrowverse page and here's everyone who I think will scale from Reverse Flash

• Zoom (CW) (Implied to be superior to Reverse Flash)
• Flash (CW) (Post-Tachyon) (Able to fight against Zoom)
• Gypsy (CW) (Harmed season 3 Flash)
• Cisco Ramon (CW) (Comparable to Gypsy)
• Savitar (Far stronger than both Reverse Flash and Zoom)
• Kid Flash (CW) (Was at one point thought to be more capable of dealing with Savitar than season 3 Barry)
• Solovar (CW) (Harmed season 3 Barry and defeated Grodd)
• Gorilla Grodd (CW) (Harmed season 3 Barry)
• Mallus (CW) (Far superior to Wally West)

 

[ByAsura]

We'd need more imput, right?

Here's what I'm planning for the Flash. What do you think?

Attack Potency: Small Building level (Defeated Tony Woodward by accelerating to supersonic speeds. Stopped a tornado), Higher after his amp (His cells were stated to produce more energy than before, overloaded Farooq Gibran, who had previously absorbed his powers with ease). Can ignore durability with phasing | At least Small Building level, likely far higher (Vastly superior to before, briefly overpowered Trajectory, who collapsed a bridge by repeatedly running across its surface. Fought on par with the Reverse-Flash, although he has quickly defeated. Easily overpowered Eobard Thawne from a point before he was trapped in the past). Can ignore durability with phasing | Small City level (Brought Zoom to his knees, albiet after he was off guard, while amped by tachyons. Grew faster than he had been with the tachyon device upon his return from the speed-force, and heavily injured Zoom after he absorbed Barry's speed). Can ignore durability with phasing | At least Small City level (Matched one of Savitar's lightning bolts and easily overpowered him in a fit of rage, destroying his armor by vibrating). Can ignore durability with phasing | At least Small City level (His lightning bolts can generate this much energy. Destroyed one of Star Labs' metahuman cells via sheer speed, inspite of its darkmatter dampeners). Can ignore durability with phasing

 

[Andytrenom]

Creating magnitude 8 earthquakes is a 7-B feat so Geomancer can't be justification for Low 7-B Flash. Flash also doesn't seem to have direct scaling so I wouldn't use him for an upgrade either

Also if possible, I think you should try and shorten the justifications a bit

 

[ByAsura]

Ok.

 

[Andytrenom]

Reverse Flash should also probably be removed from the justification of Season 4 Flash's tier, since the former is Low 7-B scaling from Barry in the first place

 

[ByAsura]

Reverse-Flash scales to Firestorm, unless you just mean Season 4. I think it's fine regardless, as they're both much stronger.

 

[Andytrenom]

Yeah, but it's circular scaling if Low 7-B Reverse is supposed to get his rating by scaling to S4 Barry

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

What is the issue here atm?

 

[ByAsura]

@Andy It's not as bad as you're making it out to be. It's just a supporting feat for the Flash being > 1 megaton because he's comparable to the Reverse Flash.

I'm going to bed now.

 

[Andytrenom]

If a character's power is given as "equal to X" then X being comparable to that character is not a feat for very obvious reasons. At that point you would basically be saying "This character is as strong as himself"

This is why the follwing statement is so pointless "Comparable to the Reverse Flash after he grew fast enough to match Barry".

 

[ByAsura]

Fine.

 

[Andytrenom]

Thanks

 

[ByAsura]

Is it ok now?

 

[Andytrenom]

Think so. Just one thing, are we going to treat the Satellite as an Anti-Feat or a supporting one for Barry? I'm leaning towards the former but I'm not sure since the Lightning thing wasn't casual either

 

[ByAsura]

I'd say it's more of a supporting feat that could be added to his Striking Strength section rather than AP.

 

[Andytrenom]

Okay

 

[Andytrenom]

The satellite feat still needs a proper calculation blog btw. And its weight should also preferably be found through a better method than dividing normal satellite weight by ten

 

[ByAsura]

I'll calc it in a moment.

 

[ByAsura]

I'll try the Reverse-Flash and Firestorm now

Attack Potency: Small City level (His meltdown almost created a catastrophic thermonuclear blast powerful enough to destroy Central City, produced a large explosion after his two components were separated. Withstood a nuclear bomb at point-blank range, which had a yield of 1 megaton, and subsequently absorbed it)

Attack Potency: Small City level (Draws power from the negative culling of the Speed Force, the opposition of the positive culling of the Speed Force. Far superior to the Flash, and has easily defeated him on multiple occasions. Fodderized Firestorm, Flash and Green Arrow, forcing them to depower Eobard through the use of nanites). Can ignore durability with phasing | At least Small City level (Implied to have defeated Superma, although how he acomplished this is left ambiguous, comparable to the Flash after his second return from the Speed Force). Can ignore durability with phasing

 

[Andytrenom]

The Superman thing may have been a result of superior speed and hax tho so I'm not sure if that's a good evidence for AP

 

[ByAsura]

I'll keep it in, but change the wording a little so it doesn't sound like he did, for a fact, defeat Superman in a fair fight with no hax.