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also barry said that he could uncreate the forces which means that he could destroy/effect something on a complex multiversal scale
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Cw flash big tier upgrade (speed force)
- Thread starter InfNoyan
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He didn't plan to do it with raw power and couldn't have done it even if he wanted to. To do this, Barry enlisted the help of his team and Timeless Harry, who has the intelligence and knowledge of all the Harrys in the multiverse. And again, the plan was not to destroy them, but to prevent them from existing in the first place. And they had a chance to do that because the Forces had not yet fully come into their own.
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the intelligence of harry was only to find out how he was gonna do it without causing the timline to change and create a new flashpoint and the speed force still needed his power to be able to kill the strength force
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Almost everything that happened in that episode was the plan of the negative forces. The Negative Forces weren't even really attacking. All they wanted was to get Barry to kill Iris and they executed their plan for that.
For God's sake, Barry couldn't even resist Speed Force killing Strength Force. With Barry so helpless in the face of the Speed Force, do you really think that the forces that can fight the Speed Force are too weak to kill Barry? Or do you really think that Barry is as strong as they are when he is so helpless? Barry couldn't stop the reverse big bang that the forces unintentionally created, which was too weak for them. He had to get help from the Forces to stop it.
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no the negativ forces didn't plan for the flash to resist as you can see the negativ strength force being suprised and even if the were he stilled knocked them out
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You have to watch the episode again
The Speed Force didn't need Barry's power. For God's sake, Barry's power comes directly from the Speed Force. With the snap of a finger, the Speed Force can render Barry completely powerless or take back all the power it has given him. Do you seriously think The Speed Force needed Barry's power? If so, why didn't it take all his power back or why did it wait for him to thorwn lightning? İt can take that power back directly from Barry any way he wants
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You know the Negative Still Force can see the future, right? They knew all this was going to happen before they killed Thawn and they were acting accordingly.
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if she could do that the why didn't she just take barrys power and kill her? and the feat were he was able to knock out the negativ forces still stands
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no the strenght force was suprised and he still knocked them out even if they intended it(which they didn't) he was still able to knockout them
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Because he didn't need Barry's power. When Barry attacked him, he stopped Barry's attack and thought it would be better to kill The Strength Force with Barry's attack. He also didn't even wait for Barry to attack to kill The Strength Force. Barry realized that The Speed Force was going to attack and tried to stop it. Even if Barry hadn't attacked, The Speed Force would have killed The Strength Force.
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They were acting. If you want someone to do what you want, you pretend and manipulate. He knocked them because they allowed it. They had Team Flash wrapped around their finger the whole episode.
Barry couldn't even stop Thawn, empowered by the Negative Forces, without the Force's help. If he was so powerful, why couldn't he stop him? Why did he need help? Why couldn't he stop the reverse big bang? Why? Because he's not that powerful.
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that's not a explination on why the strentgh force was suprised if they knew what was gonna happend she wouldn't have been and the only time they had them was when they killed iris which they failed to do since she came back
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Okay, I may have remembered the sequence of events in the scene differently, but that doesn't change anything. And that quote is a product of terrible writing in the Arrowverse. Just like when they said Barry wasn't even at the speed of light. And if you watch the scene, Barry is incapable of resisting The Speed Force.
Answer me this, Alegra High 1-C? Cecile High 1-C? What about the Kryptonians? Or XS? Because to say Barry is high 1-C is to say they are high 1-C.
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Why? They were acting. Are you saying that the Force, who can take a hit from the Speed Force and get up, is too weak to get up after being hit by Barry's lightning bolt? We've already seen that Barry's power is nothing against the Forces. Watch Flash vs. Fuerza.
And how can Barry be stronger than The Speed Force when all of his power comes from The Speed Force?
You also didn't answer my questions
If he's so powerful, why was he helpless against The Speed Force?
Why couldn't he stop the reverse big bang?
why couldn't he beat Thawn?
Why couldn't he beat The Strength Force?
Why couldn't he stop the Forces on his own?
Why couldn't he beat Speed Force?
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im not saying that he is stonger om only saying that he at his full power is comarble to the forces and in the fight versus fuerza he didn't go full power
If he's so powerful, why was he helpless against The Speed Force?
he wasen't really since he was able to react and counter her lightning so saying that he was helpless is a lie
Why couldn't he stop the reverse big bang?
because it was a big bang with the energy of all the forces and he is not more powerful than them combined
why couldn't he beat Thawn?
because thawn was empowerd by 4 forces which means that he became more powerful than him(until flash gained the same)
Why couldn't he beat The Strength Force?
again he wasen't going full power and at their incounter he didn't really know what is was
Why couldn't he stop the Forces on his own?
he didn't want to hurt them and was only trying to save the forces from nora so he didn't even try to fight them until negativ forces came
Why couldn't he beat Speed Force
again im not saying that he is more powerful im only saying that comparble to the other forces
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What made you think he wasn't at full strength? he had literally seen what it could do and he was furious. There's no reason for him to hold back. You also say that he is strong enough to defeat 4 forces on his own and that means you say he is stronger than the forces.
If he's not helpless, why didn't he stop it from killing The Strength Force?
The reverse big bang wasn't even H 3-A and Barry couldn't stop it.
So, it's strong enough to take them all down with a single blast, but not strong enough to take them all down. Do you realize what you're saying?
İt was not affected by the black matter bomb, it knocked down the abra kadabra. Barry was aware of how powerful it was and Barry was angry at it for what he had done, he had no reason to hold back.
Do you realize what you're saying? Go and watch season 7 again. And then why didn't he stop Nora? And if it wasn't for Bashir, The Speed Force would have killed Iris, why couldn't Barry stop it?
Same question, if Barry is as strong as them, why couldn't he defeat the Speed Force?
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What made you think he wasn't at full strength? he had literally seen what it could do and he was furious. There's no reason for him to hold back. You also say that he is strong enough to defeat 4 forces on his own and that means you say he is stronger than the forces.
Im not saying that he can beat the 4 forces on his own im saying that he can put up a good fight agianst them and in their fight fuerza suprised attacked him and grabbed himbefore he could actully go full power
If he's not helpless, why didn't he stop it from killing The Strength Force?
because it was a suprise attack and he was able to stop her from killing iris which means that he wasen't helpless
The reverse big bang wasn't even H 3-A and Barry couldn't stop it.
if the big bang has the combined energy from all forces then its not 3-A
So, it's strong enough to take them all down with a single blast, but not strong enough to take them all down. Do you realize what you're saying?
Im saying that he was able to knockout the forces with his raw power yes but the forces have hax that can protect them such as thawne did when he gained the power of the negativ forces
İt was not affected by the black matter bomb, it knocked down the abra kadabra. Barry was aware of how powerful it was and Barry was angry at it for what he had done, he had no reason to hold back.
Again barry didn't know what the strength force would do and the attack from fuerza was bascily a suprise attack
Do you realize what you're saying? Go and watch season 7 again. And then why didn't he stop Nora? And if it wasn't for Bashir, The Speed Force would have killed Iris, why couldn't Barry stop it?
agian still force used hax to stop barry which meant that barry could't stop nora
Same question, if Barry is as strong as them, why couldn't he defeat the Speed Force?
again im not saying that he is as strong as the speed force im saying that he is comparble to the other forces(and the other forces wasen't able to stop the speed force eather)
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You say he can literally take down 4 forces on his own, then you say he can't beat them. Make up your mind, can he or can't he?
Barry struck first. He saw how strong Fuerza was and attacked furiously. And Fuerza didn't even stagger.
For God's sake, The Speed Force wasn't even trying to kill Iris. The first attack may have been a surprise, but not the second, and it was not prevented.
As soon as it reached the H3-A energy level, it would explode and destroy everything. And Barry couldn't stop it even before it reached H3A.
If he was strong enough, he'd be out of Hax's influence. Just like he did when he was empowered by the Forces.
He out of the Negative Still Force's hax's influence because that was the Negative Force's plan.
Barry's inability to escape Thawn's hax supports that.
What a surprise attack? Barry saw that it was unaffected by the antimatter bomb and knocked out Abra Kadabra. And he attacked it in a rage.
The other forces literally beat The Speed Force so hard. That's why he went to Barry in the first place.
And why didn't you answer my question? Because you can't. You know they're not, but you can't admit it.
One staff member has already voted disagree. All we need is for one more staff member to come and vote.
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You say he can literally take down 4 forces on his own, then you say he can't beat them. Make up your mind, can he or can't he?
Barry struck first. He saw how strong Fuerza was and attacked furiously. And Fuerza didn't even stagger.
that's because barry dosen't go for kill which means that he would still hold back even when thawne got resurected he didn't go for the kill even when wife was killed
and ive only sadi that he is comparble to them not that he can beat them and no im not saying that he can take down 4 forces
As soon as it reached the H3-A energy level, it would explode and destroy everything. And Barry couldn't stop it even before it reached H3A.
there is nothing saying that it would have exploded as soon as it reached 3-A and there is nothing saying that it was 3-A
If he was strong enough, he'd be out of Hax's influence. Just like he did when he was empowered by the Forces.
He out of the Negative Still Force's hax's influence because that was the Negative Force's plan.
Barry's inability to escape Thawn's hax supports that.
there is nothing to prove that thawn's hax was equal to still force sense he was amped by three other forces aswell
barry could also have learned how to resist the hax when the negativ force influence since he had been effected previusly
What a surprise attack? Barry saw that it was unaffected by the antimatter bomb and knocked out Abra Kadabra. And he attacked it in a rage.
yes he attacked it in rage but was unaware that it would pick him up and was unaware of its capabilites
The other forces literally beat The Speed Force to a pulp. That's why he went to Barry in the first place.
if barry was able to knockout the forces that beat the speed force shouldn't he scale to them? even if they wanted to be knocked out he was still able to do it with just his raw power
And why didn't you answer my question? Because you can't. You know they're not, but you can't admit it.
One staff member has already voted disagree. All we need is for one more staff member to come and vote.
tell me how does bart,cecile,alegra and kryptonians scale to 1c because i have never mentioned any of them and nether of them have fought season 7-8 flash so please stop assuming false stuff that you think i belive
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If Bart and Nora hadn't come, Barry would have killed Thawn there. And Barry stops holding back when he gets angry. Like with Cecida, he got angry and stopped holding back.
And I'm telling you he's not. Forces were constantly depicted beyond them. How many times in the series it was said that they cannot be stopped, how we can stop God.
It was said in the show that when it reached enough atomic mass, it would explode, which would be the reverse of the big bang and destroy the universe. And Barry couldn't stop it, even though it hadn't reached that level.
You are the one who has to prove it. And I'm not saying it's equal. Thawn is weaker than an even single force. Even in their empowered state, they did not perform universe-level feats, and even the attack that destroyed the thawn was nowhere near that level
The only time Barry got rid of this hax was when the forces let him. Because they needed him for their plan.
Barry only knocked them down because they let him. Not because he was strong enough to take them down. Just like superman did when he became clark kent.
They are scaled because of the scaling chain.
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give me one solid proof that the forces actully wanted to be knockout because they gained nothing from it and strength force being suppriesd counters it
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they were much faster than Barry, they could easily escape Barry's attack there. And Barry just threw them backwards. The forces were not harmed at all. After that, the forces got up without any problems and said this was not their plan. Fighting Barry was not their plan. And Thawn's presence was weakening them. So there their plan was not to fight Barry, or to hold him, and they were not even at full strength.
For these reasons and others I have already mentioned, Barry is not High 1-C.
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the only one that's deabetlby faster is neon and he is the only one that could escape the attack which he didn't even though the forces didn't want to fight flash which makes no sense if he didn't want to fight him then he would have escaped it/dodged it and also shouldn't he be high 1-c with all of the forces when he battled thawn(since he had the full power of the 4 forces)?
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All Forces faster than Flash.
Why would they run away from an attack that would not harm them? They are much faster and stronger than Flash, and they did not flee because they knew that Flash's attack could not harm them.
Flash and Thawn never had the full power of the Forces. Yes, they were empowered by the Forces, but they never had the full power of the Forces. So no, neither of them are High 1-C.
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All Forces faster than Flash.
as i said the other forces dosen't have the feats to be faster than flash so no
Why would they run away from an attack that would not harm them? They are much faster and stronger than Flash, and they did not flee because they knew that Flash's attack could not harm them.
you said yourself that the forces didn't want to fight flash and if they were much stronger than the flash then they wouldn't have been afected by blast but insted they got knockedbacked into the wall
Flash and Thawn never had the full power of the Forces. Yes, they were empowered by the Forces, but they never had the full power of the Forces. So no, neither of them are High 1-C.
he littarly absorbed the forces in the episode and it is explained that he gains the power of the posetiv forces which means that he gets ALL of their power
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You know they're omnipresent, right? They can also fight The Speed Force, which is much faster than Barry, a feat above all speedsters.
Yeah, they didn't want to fight the Flash. If they did, they would have counterattacked after Barry's attack. They only flew backwards, they did not suffer any damage. And there they were weakened by the presence of the thawn.
The Forces merely converted their physical avatars into energy and empowered Barry. Apart from that, Barry did not absorb the entire Forces. Barry is said to be empowered by the Forces, but he is not said to have absorbed the full power of the Forces. Also, after Barry destroys Thawn, we see the Forces in the sky while he still has his enhanced powers. This show that Barry has not absorbed entire the Forces.
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I have a day off, so I'll respond when I can.
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Firstly, we don't scale avatars/manifestations (like Nora) of the Forces to the Forces themselves. They can exist within the multiverse properly, while pretty much every instance of the Speed Force realm interacting with Earth-1 and such on a relatively large scale is quite devastating.
Secondly, there's context missing to the Spectre one.
Basically, Spectre used his energies to enormously amplify Flash's dying abilities by temporarily unlocking his full potential. Those energies contaminated the Speed Force and unbalanced it.
Third, it just doesn't make sense scaling-wise.
At the beginning of Season 8, Barry's powers increased massively from his previous levels of speed, to the point where it's a huge reason as to why the Armageddon plotline even happened in the first place.
Yet the Negative Forces (which are equal and opposite to the positive Forces) could give Eobard Thawne a power boost that far surpassed Flash and the other Speedsters, and then gave him even more power to kill Flash after the Forces gave Barry a similar temporary boost.
End of Season 7 Barry (since he'd received two major amps from the Speed Force/Forces) alone could statue unamped Thawne, and Season 8 Armageddon timeline Barry was almost equal to him while reduced to 5% of his speed.
Throughout Season 4 to Crisis, Barry and Thawne were equals, so scaling alone makes any of this impossible.
And lastly, Barry struggles with finite feats all across Season 6-9, like failing to obliterate Cicada even after stopped holding back and was using more power than ever before. I really can't stress this enough.
Sure, there are ways that Barry does scale to the Forces on some levels, with some amps, etc. But this is by no means his usual level of power that he can/chooses to access at all times.
Secondly, there's context missing to the Spectre one.
Basically, Spectre used his energies to enormously amplify Flash's dying abilities by temporarily unlocking his full potential. Those energies contaminated the Speed Force and unbalanced it.
- MANIFESTATION: A few months ago, a substance entered the Speed Force... something that we'd never encountered before. We tried to contain it, but it contaminated us. It upset the balance of our energies. The green and white lightning. It is infernal power beyond the laws of our nature. [...]
- BARRY: During Crisis, I made the Spectre give me his energy so I could enter the Speed Force again. I am responsible. I did this. I killed the Speed Force. [...]
Third, it just doesn't make sense scaling-wise.
At the beginning of Season 8, Barry's powers increased massively from his previous levels of speed, to the point where it's a huge reason as to why the Armageddon plotline even happened in the first place.
Yet the Negative Forces (which are equal and opposite to the positive Forces) could give Eobard Thawne a power boost that far surpassed Flash and the other Speedsters, and then gave him even more power to kill Flash after the Forces gave Barry a similar temporary boost.
End of Season 7 Barry (since he'd received two major amps from the Speed Force/Forces) alone could statue unamped Thawne, and Season 8 Armageddon timeline Barry was almost equal to him while reduced to 5% of his speed.
Throughout Season 4 to Crisis, Barry and Thawne were equals, so scaling alone makes any of this impossible.
And lastly, Barry struggles with finite feats all across Season 6-9, like failing to obliterate Cicada even after stopped holding back and was using more power than ever before. I really can't stress this enough.
Sure, there are ways that Barry does scale to the Forces on some levels, with some amps, etc. But this is by no means his usual level of power that he can/chooses to access at all times.
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