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Fist Of The North Star Revision Part 1 (P&A)

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Jasonsith said:
For quick additions: (what accepted by me are in italics)

Acrobatics: Every fighter should already have this on their profile.
Applicable for all touki users

Body Control: Taiyan, a guy who can punch and kick behind his back, was impressed by Kasumi body control, Kenshiro was able to force blood sucking needles out of his body.
Applicable for all touki users who practices Hokuto no Ken (includes Hokuto Shinken, Hokuto Ryuken, Hokuto Sogaken, Hokumon no Ken)

Statistics Amplification: By various ways, for example, by pressing the Sekkatsuko points, one can amplify their own strength for a short amount of time. With the Keiko technique hokuto fighters can increase their movement speed.
Applicable for all touki users who practices Hokuto no Ken (includes Hokuto Shinken, Hokuto Ryuken, Hokuto Sogaken, Hokumon no Ken)

Afterimage Creation: Ken even in the beginning of the series could do that, Toki has also demonstrated that in his first fight against Raoh.
Applicable for all touki users who practices Hokuto no Ken (includes Hokuto Shinken, Hokuto Ryuken, Hokuto Sogaken, Hokumon no Ken). Not sure if this applies to other practices like Nanto Seiken or Gento Koken.

Information Analysis: Kaiser (Kenshiro and most Hokuto fighters scales above him) was able to see every possibly blind spot an opponent has as dots which light up when said blind spot is available. Kasumi can see a martial art’s blind spot, that is, he can perceive the split second in which the user focuses energy to throw an attack and use that knowledge to predict the attack, effectively negating the martial art as a whole. This martial art had no conventional blind spots the user could even punch and kick behind his back. Juza can read a martial art so well that he could predict every move from it.
Applicable for all touki users

Paralysis Inducement: Via various pressure points.
Applicable for all touki users who practices Hokuto no Ken (includes Hokuto Shinken, Hokuto Ryuken, Hokuto Sogaken, Hokumon no Ken)

Forcefield Creation: Raoh was able to create a ki barrier.
Applicable for all touki users who practices Hokuto no Ken (includes Hokuto Shinken, Hokuto Ryuken, Hokuto Sogaken, Hokumon no Ken). Not sure if this applies to other practices like Nanto Seiken or Gento Koken.

Underground Mobility: Should be able to replicate what the nameless shura did
Applicable for all touki users (not sure if normal grunts can do that too because of some statements that Shura grunts are "famed/framed for" being as trong as ordinary touki users)

Ken (and other fighters) should also have Extrasensory Perception since the begnning of the series, due to the fact that even fodder fighters can sense ki, and maybe Size Manipulation for hokuto fighters, since Kasumi was able to increase his size using a hokuto technique and Ken also did the same thing in Hokuto No Ken Last Piece (couldn't find a scan in english. I only found this video) and kinda Attack Reflection with Nishi Shinku Ha? Also by the end of the series Kenshiro could redirect and easily Nullify Ki attacks.
Applicable for high tier touki users who practices Hokuto no Ken (includes Hokuto Shinken, Hokuto Ryuken, Hokuto Sogaken, Hokumon no Ken). Not sure if this applies to other practices like Nanto Seiken or Gento Koken.
Click to expand...
What actually accepted and to apply by Stefano4444.
 
Okay. That is probably fine to apply then.
 
Is somebody here willing and able to properly apply the accepted revisions here?
 
I think we should start applying the abilities once AP gets sorted out (like with multipliers and such) because we are also splitting the abilities into different keys.
 
Okay. If you or somebody else lists everybody who have constructively helped out in this thread, I can send them a notification message.
 
Actually wait, I'm looking at the original Jagi calc, and the multipliers are established in the calc (and were accepted at the time) it's the reason why Kenshiro was considered Country level at the time. (It even affected speed, but I don't know if that would apply now)

For the new keys, is the AP (and possibly Speed) in the Kenshiro blog fine to use on the profile for now? (I know the abilities are good to add, just worried about the AP and Speed)
 
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FoxySonicMaster108 said:
Actually wait, I'm looking at the original Jagi calc, and the multipliers are established in the calc (and were accepted at the time) it's the reason why Kenshiro was considered Country level at the time. (It even affected speed, but I don't know if that would apply now)

For the new keys, is the AP (and possibly Speed) in the Kenshiro blog fine to use on the profile for now? (I know the abilities are good to add, just worried about the AP and Speed)
Click to expand...
Everything except the AP thing and scaling chain pal.
 
Silvervigilant said:
Toki was bombarded by radiation for 2 weeks straight, and although he got sick, he still lived for quite some time. A normal human would have died.
Click to expand...
Toki didn't get sick from the radiation, it's revealed in the Toki movie (made by hara's own animation studio, as is the case for every movie) that Toki was sick before that and just used the radiation as cover up, that's the reason why Toki wasn't named successor despite technically not being sick (the successorship was passed before the nukes were dropped and thus before he should technically have gotten sick)
Stefano4444 said:
Still, i think using a game descriptions as main justification to FTL/SoL its pretty questionable, it would be better if you use only the manga scans as main evidence, with the game descriptions as best as support, and if not they would be ignored.
Click to expand...
game is canon, supervised by Hara down to the facial expressions of the characters, it's at worst secondary canon
Stefano4444 said:
And know that i think about it i know that Post-Initiation Ritual Kasumi its comparable to Seals Lifted Kenshiro, but what about Initiation Ritual Kasumi? Which versions of Kenshiro, Kasumi its suppost to be comparable?
Click to expand...
Kasumi's standing compared to HNK depends entirely on what happens in Regenesis, because prime Ryuken states that Kasumi was stronger than him, same Ryuken who should easily scale to Hyoh, the problem is that Ryuken last saw Kasumi at the very start of SNK and Kasumi, much like Ken, gets much, much stronger and faster throughout SNK, so it's either Kasumi starts off at Hyoh level and then gets massively stronger or he ends up being around Hyoh level after all his amps, all we know is that by the end of HNK Ken is stronger than him
 
Twellas said:
Toki didn't get sick from the radiation, it's revealed in the Toki movie (made by hara's own animation studio, as is the case for every movie) that Toki was sick before that and just used the radiation as cover up, that's the reason why Toki wasn't named successor despite technically not being sick (the successorship was passed before the nukes were dropped and thus before he should technically have gotten sick)

game is canon, supervised by Hara down to the facial expressions of the characters, it's at worst secondary canon

Kasumi's standing compared to HNK depends entirely on what happens in Regenesis, because prime Ryuken states that Kasumi was stronger than him, same Ryuken who should easily scale to Hyoh, the problem is that Ryuken last saw Kasumi at the very start of SNK and Kasumi, much like Ken, gets much, much stronger and faster throughout SNK, so it's either Kasumi starts off at Hyoh level and then gets massively stronger or he ends up being around Hyoh level after all his amps, all we know is that by the end of HNK Ken is stronger than him
Click to expand...
You're back!
 
Twellas said:
Toki didn't get sick from the radiation, it's revealed in the Toki movie (made by hara's own animation studio, as is the case for every movie) that Toki was sick before that and just used the radiation as cover up, that's the reason why Toki wasn't named successor despite technically not being sick (the successorship was passed before the nukes were dropped and thus before he should technically have gotten sick)
Click to expand...
Yeah that's true, but didn't the movies includes some new characters that never appeared in the og manga? still, since they are made hara's own animation studio they could be secondary canon tho
Twellas said:
game is canon, supervised by Hara down to the facial expressions of the characters, it's at worst secondary canon
Click to expand...
Totally Agree
Twellas said:
Kasumi's standing compared to HNK depends entirely on what happens in Regenesis, because prime Ryuken states that Kasumi was stronger than him, same Ryuken who should easily scale to Hyoh, the problem is that Ryuken last saw Kasumi at the very start of SNK and Kasumi, much like Ken, gets much, much stronger and faster throughout SNK, so it's either Kasumi starts off at Hyoh level and then gets massively stronger or he ends up being around Hyoh level after all his amps, all we know is that by the end of HNK Ken is stronger than him
Click to expand...
mostly agree, i think Ryuken is weaker than Hyoh.
 
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Some background info on "Tenryu Kokyu Hou":

It claims to allow unlocking human potential power. As described Kenshiro himself: "Normal humans can use 30% of the power, but I (Kenshiro) can use 100%".
The wording has some plays on numbers sure and many game adaptations do keep the original sentence.
However, the ratio being a multiplier for versus debate is still shaky as (1) the concept of battle power may not be the same as the concept of attack potency used in our system (2) since normal humans are far weaker than touki users (like Jagi can tank a big nuclear strike while grunts can just decapitate heads or survive bricks and wooden crosses falling on their heads), the "3.33x" cannot realistically mean a multiplier for
Many touki users can bulk or concentrate ki and they are not essentially using TKH.
However, like other ki concentrating techniques and bulking techniques, TKH does temporarily improves one's physiques to an unknown degree, usually for blitzing enemies (for plot purpose or not) or even as a second health bar or MP bar.

For the FTL thing by statement, ... I believe our site does not really accept that.


I need to sleep by now.
 
Jasonsith said:
For the FTL thing by statement, ... I believe our site does not really accept that.
Click to expand...
I'm pretty sure we have accepted FTL/SoL speed via statements before.

A good example would be Coco's Poison Spears from Toriko, which have been consistently stated to move at near SoL.
 
why would they not be? Ken stating that "normal humans can use 30% of their power" doesn't reference touki practitioners' power, he's just saying that the power non-Hokuto (TKH is an Hokuto Shinken only move) users use is 30% of what their bodies are actually capable of, we see characters considered "average humans" have feats on the level of Jagi, so the statement is definitely not saying that Hokuto users are just 3 times stronger than average humans.

Ken has a lot of amps other than TKH regardless, he has a rage/emotional amp that's implied and shown to surpass Tenryu in potency as well as the Kiko Yabu, which lets him frag objects he couldn't even dent at 30% as well as no-sell people who are implied to be able to break his bones in either 30% or 100% (he just used TKH before giving the statement) on top of just being shown to be a massive amp to his ki

Also TKH definitely also amps speed because in 30% he couldn't dodge these dudes and after using TKH he can easily ghost their attacks
Jasonsith said:
For the FTL thing by statement, ... I believe our site does not really accept that.
Click to expand...
sorry, but this doesn't make any sense lol
 
Twellas said:
Ken has a lot of amps other than TKH regardless, he has a rage/emotional amp that's implied and shown to surpass Tenryu in potency
Click to expand...
Ken could definitely obtain rage power as power through this, Ken himself even says that rage turns the body into steel armor, so this should also affect durability.
Jasonsith said:
For the FTL thing by statement, ... I believe our site does not really accept that.
Click to expand...
If it was just a one off statement, then sure. Except it's stated three times Garuda's fist can move at that speed, there are others like Han's fist not casting shadows (which is literally shown), also (apparently) if other verses use statements to get SoL, then I don't get why FOTNS doesn't get that treatment especially considering they have feats of moving at that speed.
 
So what agreements have you reached here currently, and what still needs to be discussed?
 
Twellas said:
Ken should also get Deconstruction with his aura off of this and possibly this
Click to expand...
I think he should also get Healing (via various pressure points) Social Influencing (Ken inspired Lin and multiple people to fight. Raiga and Fuga immediately placed all their trust in Ken. Shu sacrificed his own eyesight to save Kenshiro, despite the fact he had just met him. Ryuga who was loyal to Raoh, belived in Kenshiro by the end of his life. Even after Shachi turned into a monster Ken was able to completely change Shachi's heart to the point that Shachi would risk everything to protect him) Intangibility (with Kento Shadan, Kenshiro can phase through the opponent's defenses. Souther's Tensho Juji Ho makes him Intangible. Kaiser's martial art lets him phase thorugh his opponents bodies and extract their internal organs or break their bones without making an external injury). Life Manipulation (Kenshiro was able to make Bat live via pressure points, despite Bat being basically dead. Kasumi was able to save Pan Guanglin who was on the verge of death by using the Hiko pressure points of life. Toki was able to put himself on false state of death to prolong his life. there are pressure points that can prolong one's life) I also think Hokuto fighters should have Purification (Since Kasumi could restore Haruto's father's humanity before his death, Haruto's father had turned into a mind controlled beast at the time, and Ryuken was able to restore Jukei's humanity after Jukei was consumed by Hokuto Ryuken's evil karma).
 
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Antvasima said:
So what agreements have you reached here currently, and what still needs to be discussed?
Click to expand...
Basically most "power and ability" addition/removal/modification we have no much dispute.

AFAIK my Jagi nuke feat and the Kaioh ocean vaporisation statement has been accepted.
What remains really in big dispute are the speed of light statement, the Tenryu Kokyu Hou legitimacy of being a multiplier for versus debate purpose and the relevant scaling chains for all characters to attach to.
 
Silvervigilant said:
I think he should also get Healing (via various pressure points) Social Influencing (Ken inspired Lin and multiple people to fight. Raiga and Fuga immediately placed all their trust in Ken. Shu sacrificed his own eyesight to save Kenshiro, despite the fact he had just met him. Ryuga who was loyal to Raoh, belived in Kenshiro by the end of his life. Even after Shachi turned into a monster Ken was able to completely change Shachi's heart to the point that Shachi would risk everything to protect him) Intangibility (with Kento Shadan, Kenshiro can phase through the opponent's defenses. Souther's Tensho Juji Ho makes him Intangible. Kaiser's martial art lets him phase thorugh his opponents bodies and extract their internal organs or break their bones without making an external injury). Life Manipulation (Kenshiro was able to make Bat live via pressure points, despite Bat being basically dead. Kasumi was able to save Pan Guanglin who was on the verge of death by using the Hiko pressure points of life. Toki was able to put himself on false state of death to prolong his life. there are pressure points that can prolong one's life) I also think Hokuto fighters should have Purification (Since Kasumi could restore Haruto's father's humanity before his death, Haruto's father had turned into a mind controlled beast at the time, and Ryuken was able to restore Jukei's humanity after Jukei was consumed by Hokuto Ryuken's evil karma).
Click to expand...
I second all of this and add that they should also get Invisibility and resistance to Analytical Prediction off of this move
 
Twellas said:
I was thinking about making an Hokuto Shinken page, it'd much easier to just plug that in compared to listing every ability for every character
Click to expand...
I agree making one page for all martial arts that use touki.
Or you want to do them in several pages? Feel free to discuss.

Because Hokuto no Ken has several branches (Hokuto Shinken, Hokuto Ryuken, Hokuto Sougaken, Hokumon no Ken, etc), and some abilities do overlap.

Nanto Seiken, Gento Koken and others are simpler and will be kind of "wasting" if they have one whole page for them.

Also some abilities mentioned by us are common among touki users.
 
Eseseso said:
this went from scaling debate to adding like 50 broken abilities for all Hokuto Shinken users
Click to expand...
Ok so i did list for every missing ability on their profiles (most of them were already mentioned and accepted but others not)
  1. Soul Manipulation and BFR: (Using the Hokuto Shinhozan technique,Kasumi Kenshiro was able to send his opponents souls to the afterlife)
  2. Pain Manipulation: (Kenshiro already has displays of doing stuff like that)
  3. Resistance to Radiation: (Jagi was fine after taking a nuke, and Toki was bombarded by radiation for 2 weeks straight)
  4. Acrobatics: (Every fighter should already have this on their profile)
  5. Vocal Replication: (Can mimic many sounds, including animal cries)
  6. Energy Projection (with Tenha Kassatsu, Tensho Honretsu, Gosho Ha and many other techniques)
  7. Body Control: (Taiyan, a guy who can punch and kick behind his back, was impressed by Kasumi body control, Kenshiro was able to force blood sucking needles out of his body)
  8. Statistics Amplification: (By various ways, for example, by pressing the Sekkatsuko points, one can amplify their own strength for a short amount of time. With the Keiko technique hokuto fighters can increase their movement speed)
  9. Afterimage Creation: (Ken even in the beginning of the series could do that, Toki has also demonstrated that in his first fight against Raoh)
  10. Information Analysis: (Kaiser [Kenshiro and most Hokuto fighters scales above him] was able to see every possibly blind spot an opponent has as dots which light up when said blind spot is available. Kasumi can see a martial art’s blind spot, that is, he can perceive the split second in which the user focuses energy to throw an attack and use that knowledge to predict the attack, effectively negating the martial art as a whole. This martial art had no conventional blind spots the user could even punch and kick behind his back. Juza can read a martial art so well that he could predict every move from it)
  11. Paralysis Inducement: (Via various pressure points)
  12. Forcefield Creation: (Raoh was able to create a ki barrier)
  13. Underground Mobility: (Should be able to replicate what the nameless shura did)
  14. Danmaku (With Hokuto Tenkai Senretsu Shō)
  15. Extrasensory Perception: (Since the begnning of the series, due to the fact that even fodder fighters can sense ki)
  16. Size Manipulation: (Kasumi was able to increase his size using a hokuto technique and Ken also did the same thing in Hokuto No Ken Last Piece)
  17. Attack Reflection: (With Nishi Shinku Ha, and later in the series Kenshiro could redirect Ki attacks)
  18. Minor Earth Manipulation (Raoh was able to lift earth and shape them a shields only using his palm)
  19. Sense Manipulation (Kenshiro was able to remove the Colonel's vision, screwed up Han's sight, restored Airi's vision, made Jagi hypersensitive)
  20. Rage Power: (Ken states that Rage turns his body into steel armor)
  21. Healing (Via various pressure points)
  22. Resistance to Extrasensory Perception (Ken was able to sneak up on Han who can sense Ki)
  23. Social Influencing: (Ken inspired Lin and multiple people to fight. Raiga and Fuga immediately placed all their trust in Ken. Shu sacrificed his own eyesight to save Kenshiro, despite the fact he had just met him. Ryuga who was loyal to Raoh, belived in Kenshiro by the end of his life. Even after Shachi turned into a monster Ken was able to completely change Shachi's heart to the point that Shachi would risk everything to protect him)
  24. Intangibility: (With Kento Shadan, Kenshiro can phase through the opponent's defenses. Souther's Tensho Juji Ho makes him Intangible. Kaiser's martial art lets him phase thorugh his opponents bodies and extract their internal organs or break their bones without making an external injury)
  25. Life Manipulation: (Kenshiro was able to make Bat live via pressure points, despite Bat being basically dead. Kasumi was able to save Pan Guanglin who was on the verge of death by using the Hiko pressure points of life. Toki was able to put himself on false state of death to prolong his life. there are pressure points that can prolong one's life)
  26. Purification: (Since Kasumi could restore Haruto's father's humanity before his death, Haruto's father had turned into a mind controlled beast at the time, and Ryuken was able to restore Jukei's humanity after Jukei was consumed by Hokuto Ryuken's evil karma)
  27. Invisibility and Resistance to Analytical Prediction: (With the Shichisei Tenshin technique)
  28. Void Manipulation, Pocket Reality Manipulation, Power Nullification and Immortality (Type 8) (with Soryu Tenra, the ultimate technique passed down to the successor; transports him and his opponent to a world of nothingness where all barriers and defenses are removed, leaving only a fight to death with nothing but one's bare hands, the fight won't end until both the fighters surpass the "barrier of death", a spot in which neither fighter can evade or retreat from the opponent's fist, to the point where both of them will endlessly come back to life upon being killed as long as they are outside of said "barrier")
  29. Deconstruction: (With aura)
  30. Power Nullification (Can easily Nullify Ki attacks by the end of the series)
  31. Perception Manipulation: (Ken was able to make some guys lose their sense of depth perception via pressure points. Kasumi steely gaze makes a man think he's been killed)
  32. Limited Momentum Manipulation, Power Nullification, and Attack Reflection (Toki's Ju no Ken can do this and can completely nullify the opponent's power [as long as it's comparable to his] and use it against them)
  33. Limited Gravity Manipulation (Anryu Tenha consists in trapping the opponent in a non-gravitational space)
  34. Illusion Creation and Resistance to Extrasensory Perception: (Shu's Yugen Sho aka "Alluring Illusion Palm" creates a illusion of multiple hands to confuse his enemies and Kenshiro was unable to sense his presence)
  35. Light Manipulation: (With Gento Koken)
  36. Explosion Manipulation: (Liu Zongwu did this using a hokuto technique)
  37. Photographic Memory: (Kasumi demonstrated this)
  38. Possibly Surface Scaling: (Rima was able to scale wall)
  39. Possibly Vibration Manipulation: (Both Raoh and Toki displayed this in their fight, and so did Toki and Kenshiro and also Juza while fighting Raoh. Hyoh was capable of transferring Ki waves to strings)
  40. Possibly Damage Boost: (Raoh's Hokuto Hatenkai Ken aka "Fist of One's Whole Soul" is implied to be much more powerful than a normal punch)
  41. Also Fire Manipulation: (with Shuren's Gosha Enjō Ken, but i don't know if anyone should have this aside from Shuren, Maybe Raoh since he saw him doing it, but i'm not sure about the others tho)
  42. There's also a instance, where Uighur was able to hurt Ken and send him flying with his Moko Hakyoku Do, but when Kenshiro used his Hokuto Koretsu Ha stance not only he blocked Uighur's Moko Hakyoku Do, but he also didn't receive any damage doing it, and Ken didn't boosted himself either. so probably Damage Reduction right?
Either way these are all the missing abilities that i could think of, if there's more or i'm missing some, talk to me and i'll put them here.
 
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