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Fist Of The North Star Revision Part 1 (P&A)

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So have you reached any conclusions here now?
 
Stefano4444 said:
You need to put them in their own blogs and be evaluated by the calc group first, if you haven't done already.

Still, the feats would only upgrade the lower tiers to 6-A, although it would support High 6-A scaling for everybody else.

I think that can be done later, i would rather first complete Kenshiro's profile and correct any discrepancy in the other profiles.
Click to expand...
Ok.
 
FoxySonicMaster108 said:
I think there should be some more people to agree (or disagree) to these changes, this is a pretty big change.
Click to expand...
If somebody explains what needs to be evaluated in easy to understand, but sufficiently comprehensive, manners, I can ask for further staff help with evaluating it.
 
Stefano4444 said:
That its what i got when i applied the multipliers.

Beginning of Series 30% Ken: >1c (FTL).
Beginning of Series 100% Ken: 3.33c (FTL).
Post-Toki’s Bind 30% Ken: >3.33c (FTL)
Post-Toki’s Bind 100% Ken: 11.09c (FTL+)
Post-Shu's Call 30% Ken: >11.09c (FTL+)
Post-Shu's Call 100% Ken: 36.93c (FTL+)
Post-Timeskip 30% Ken: >36.93c (FTL+)
Post-Timeskip 100% Ken: 122.977c (Massively FTL)
Post-Awakening 30% Ken: >122.977c (Massively FTL)
Post-Awakening 100% Ken: 409.513c (Massively FTL)
Seals Lifted 30% Ken: >409.513c (Massively FTL)
Seals Lifted 100% Ken: 1363.678c (Massively FTL+)
Click to expand...
Can you do a similar thing for lifting strength?

I'm don't think it crosses into Class G
 
Eseseso said:
Can you do a similar thing for lifting strength?

I'm don't think it crosses into Class G
Click to expand...
Beginning of Series 30% Ken: 110095.7 kg (Class K)
Beginning of Series 100% Ken: 366618.681 kg (Class K)
Post-Toki’s Bind 30% Ken: >366618.681 kg (Class K)
Post-Toki’s Bind 100% Ken: 1220840.21 kg (Class M)
Post-Shu's Call 30% Ken: >1220840.21 kg (Class M)
Post-Shu's Call 100% Ken: 4065397.9 kg (Class M)
Post-Timeskip 30% Ken: >4065397.9 kg (Class M)
Post-Timeskip 100% Ken: 13537775 kg (Class M)
Post-Awakening 30% Ken: >13537775 kg (Class M)
Post-Awakening 100% Ken: 45080790.8 kg (Class M)
Seals Lifted 30% Ken: >45080790.8 kg (Class M)
Seals Lifted 100% Ken: 150119033c (Class M)

Yeah you're correct.
 
FoxySonicMaster108 said:
I think there should be some more people to agree (or disagree) to these changes, this is a pretty big change.
Click to expand...
Antvasima said:
If somebody explains what needs to be evaluated in easy to understand, but sufficiently comprehensive, manners, I can ask for further staff help with evaluating it.
Click to expand...
In case it is preferable that is.
 
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I think there should be some other abilities for the tabbers like, Kenshiro shouldn't have Anryū Tenha in his Beginning of Series key, since that doesn't appear until Fist of the North Star 2, matter of fact, most of the stuff he gets from Fist of the North Star 2 should be in his Post Time Skip key.

The only thing I'm really worried about is speed, like Massively FTL and Massively FTL+ is really high and it comes from multipliers, and to my knowledge Kenshiro doesn't even get THAT much faster throughout the series.
 
Squeezing some time to respond properly

  • 3.33 X multiplier thing - still sort of a stalemate and while reasons against and for making it a legit multiplier for vs debate purpose
  • 1c "Beginning of Series 30% Ken" - Well the "light speed" punch thing comes from mere statements. We have dealt with such statements before and we by practice do not accept SOL from such statements. We do not accept that from Under Night In-Birth so we do not see a reason here.
  • We also have the Mach 200.2052899 speed from Raoh punching the cloud or 0.028088898 c for Kasumi Kenshiro meeting Liu Zongwu in a lightning strike. And that is for the accepted speed feat.
  • Do we allow speed boost from strength multiplier (which is even debated whether legit or not)? Last time I checked: KE = 0.5 m (v)^2 and if we set speed constant we do see an increase in m (associated with lifting strength) does constitute to an increase in KE (attack potency)
  • LS may actually benefit from a strength multiplier (whether the multiplier is legit or not is another issue)
 
FoxySonicMaster108 said:
The only thing I'm really worried about is speed, like Massively FTL and Massively FTL+ is really high and it comes from multipliers, and to my knowledge Kenshiro doesn't even get THAT much faster throughout the series.
Click to expand...
Well i have to say that i'm quite skeptical about this too, but i have to say that Kenshiro does infact becomes much, much faster in the course of the series, i mean Garuda (who's nothing compared to a Seal Llifted Ken) could fight at lightspeeds and Juza completely blitzed him without even trying, a post timeskip Kenshiro reacted and dodged Falco's light attack at close range, and after Kasumi did the ritual he was able to blitz Yasaka who previously was comparable to him. So yeah EOS Ken is much faster.

And regarding the Massively FTL and Massively FTL+. We do have feats and calcs that puts Ken in those ranges.
  1. Kasumi dodges Taiyan's attack (this makes Ken at least MFTL)
  2. Liu Zongwu dodges Kasumi's strike (MFTL to MFTL+)
  3. The Avatar of Hokuto Shinken does a zoom (Raoh scales above it)
  4. Tento Kogai Sho (Yes the infamous One Hundred Quitillion Punches feat, which was deemed to be an outlier, but i don't think it is since we have at least 3 MFTL+ feats and the Tento Kogai Sho only scales to the God tiers of the verse, and @Twellas gave a good justification for why is not a Hyperbole)
 
Jasonsith said:
Squeezing some time to respond properly

  • 3.33 X multiplier thing - still sort of a stalemate and while reasons against and for making it a legit multiplier for vs debate purpose
  • 1c "Beginning of Series 30% Ken" - Well the "light speed" punch thing comes from mere statements. We have dealt with such statements before and we by practice do not accept SOL from such statements. We do not accept that from Under Night In-Birth so we do not see a reason here.
  • We also have the Mach 200.2052899 speed from Raoh punching the cloud or 0.028088898 c for Kasumi Kenshiro meeting Liu Zongwu in a lightning strike. And that is for the accepted speed feat.
  • Do we allow speed boost from strength multiplier (which is even debated whether legit or not)? Last time I checked: KE = 0.5 m (v)^2 and if we set speed constant we do see an increase in m (associated with lifting strength) does constitute to an increase in KE (attack potency)
  • LS may actually benefit from a strength multiplier (whether the multiplier is legit or not is another issue)
Click to expand...
So what do the rest of you think about this?
 
Silvervigilant said:
Well i have to say that i'm quite skeptical about this too, but i have to say that Kenshiro does infact becomes much, much faster in the course of the series, i mean Garuda (who's nothing compared to a Seal Llifted Ken) could fight at lightspeeds and Juza completely blitzed him without even trying, a post timeskip Kenshiro reacted and dodged Falco's light attack at close range, and after Kasumi did the ritual he was able to blitz Yasaka who previously was comparable to him. So yeah EOS Ken is much faster.

And regarding the Massively FTL and Massively FTL+. We do have feats and calcs that puts Ken in those ranges.
  1. Kasumi dodges Taiyan's attack (this makes Ken at least MFTL)
  2. Liu Zongwu dodges Kasumi's strike (MFTL to MFTL+)
  3. The Avatar of Hokuto Shinken does a zoom (Raoh scales above it)
  4. Tento Kogai Sho (Yes the infamous One Hundred Quitillion Punches feat, which was deemed to be an outlier, but i don't think it is since we have at least 3 MFTL+ feats and the Tento Kogai Sho only scales to the God tiers of the verse, and @Twellas gave a good justification for why is not a Hyperbole)
Click to expand...
I agree with this.
Jasonsith said:
  • Do we allow speed boost from strength multiplier (which is even debated whether legit or not)? Last time I checked: KE = 0.5 m (v)^2 and if we set speed constant we do see an increase in m (associated with lifting strength) does constitute to an increase in KE (attack potency)
Click to expand...
When have we ever discussed this?

We don't do it for SSJ multiplying, why should it apply here?
 
FoxySonicMaster108 said:
I think there should be some other abilities for the tabbers like, Kenshiro shouldn't have Anryū Tenha in his Beginning of Series key, since that doesn't appear until Fist of the North Star 2, matter of fact, most of the stuff he gets from Fist of the North Star 2 should be in his Post Time Skip key.
Click to expand...
Can you specifically tell which abilities Post-Timeskip Kenshiro learn compare to his Pre-Timeskip counterpart? Same with all other keys if possible.

It has be a long while since i watch the series, and i have no idea about when Kenshiro learn many of his techniques.
 
Stefano4444 said:
Can you specifically tell which abilities Post-Timeskip Kenshiro learn compare to his Pre-Timeskip counterpart? Same with all other keys if possible.

It has be a long while since i watch the series, and i have no idea about when Kenshiro learn many of his techniques.
Click to expand...
He has stuff like Anryū Tenha (the telekinesis and limited spatial manipulation) in his Beginning of Series key, which appears in Fist of the North Star 2, it should be moved into Seals Lifted I think, his resistance to Chi Draining comes from the Hokuto Soke, so it should also go to the Seals Lifted key
 
Eseseso said:
When have we ever discussed this?
Click to expand...
Here it is
Stefano4444 said:
That its what i got when i applied the multipliers.

Beginning of Series 30% Ken: >1c (FTL).
Beginning of Series 100% Ken: 3.33c (FTL).
Post-Toki’s Bind 30% Ken: >3.33c (FTL)
Post-Toki’s Bind 100% Ken: 11.09c (FTL+)
Post-Shu's Call 30% Ken: >11.09c (FTL+)
Post-Shu's Call 100% Ken: 36.93c (FTL+)
Post-Timeskip 30% Ken: >36.93c (FTL+)
Post-Timeskip 100% Ken: 122.977c (Massively FTL)
Post-Awakening 30% Ken: >122.977c (Massively FTL)
Post-Awakening 100% Ken: 409.513c (Massively FTL)
Seals Lifted 30% Ken: >409.513c (Massively FTL)
Seals Lifted 100% Ken: 1363.678c (Massively FTL+)
Click to expand...
Eseseso said:
We don't do it for SSJ multiplying, why should it apply here?
Click to expand...
Thank you for banning that. I concur this should not be aplicable here.

Forthe 4 speed feats... I commented on one of those and is commenting on the remaining three
 
Thank you to everybody who are helping out here. I hope that you will reach some final conclusions soon, so we can wrap up this thread.
 
Jasonsith said:
Thank you for banning that. I concur this should not be applicable here.

For the 4 speed feats... I commented on one of those and is commenting on the remaining three
Click to expand...
I was mainly referring to the kinetic energy equation making zero sense in this discussion.

And what do you mean by "banning"?
 
Eseseso said:
I was mainly referring to the kinetic energy equation making zero sense in this discussion.

And what do you mean by "banning"?
Click to expand...
By "banning" I mean I agree that the strength multiplier should not be applicable to speed.

(I do not think the Tenryu Kokyu Hou is a valid strength multiplier for vs debate purpose in the first place. But Eseseso is likely refusing Stefano's proposal on making the speed multiplier thing.)


Okay I am sleeping for now so talk to you later.
 
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Silvervigilant said:
Yeah, and i think Hokuto Fighters (or just martial artists in general) should also have resistance to Radiation, since Jagi was fine after taking a nuke, and Toki was bombarded by radiation for 2 weeks straight, and although he got sick, he still lived for quite some time. A normal human would have died.
Click to expand...
Touki practitioners should have resistance against radiation sure.

But Pain Manipulation in particular is some skill only Hokuto Shinken practitioners actually able to use IIRC.
 
Stefano4444 said:
Kasumi and Liu's feats looks fine and they can be used to support the speed scaling, but Avatar of Hokuto's feat looks far too ambiguous to be used.
Click to expand...
Still, i think using a game descriptions as main justification to FTL/SoL its pretty questionable, it would be better if you use only the manga scans as main evidence, with the game descriptions as best as support, and if not they would be ignored.

Also, which version of Kenshiro would scale to Zhang Taiyan?

And know that i think about it i know that Post-Initiation Ritual Kasumi its comparable to Seals Lifted Kenshiro, but what about Initiation Ritual Kasumi? Which versions of Kenshiro, Kasumi its suppost to be comparable?
 
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Stefano4444 said:
@Jasonsith @Silvervigilant

I have update the blog with Pain Manipulation and Radiation Manipulation.
Click to expand...
Nice, I think you should probably put other basic abilities that's not in Ken's profile as well, such as

Acrobatics: Every fighter should already have this on their profile.

Body Control: Taiyan, a guy who can punch and kick behind his back, was impressed by Kasumi body control, Kenshiro was able to force blood sucking needles out of his body.

Statistics Amplification: By various ways, for example, by pressing the Sekkatsuko points, one can amplify their own strength for a short amount of time. With the Keiko technique hokuto fighters can increase their movement speed.

Afterimage Creation: Ken even in the beginning of the series could do that, Toki has also demonstrated that in his first fight against Raoh.

Information Analysis: Kaiser (Kenshiro and most Hokuto fighters scales above him) was able to see every possibly blind spot an opponent has as dots which light up when said blind spot is available. Kasumi can see a martial art’s blind spot, that is, he can perceive the split second in which the user focuses energy to throw an attack and use that knowledge to predict the attack, effectively negating the martial art as a whole. This martial art had no conventional blind spots the user could even punch and kick behind his back. Juza can read a martial art so well that he could predict every move from it.

Paralysis Inducement: Via various pressure points.

Forcefield Creation: Raoh was able to create a ki barrier.

Underground Mobility: Should be able to replicate what the nameless shura did

Ken (and other fighters) should also have Extrasensory Perception since the begnning of the series, due to the fact that even fodder fighters can sense ki, and maybe Size Manipulation for hokuto fighters, since Kasumi was able to increase his size using a hokuto technique and Ken also did the same thing in Hokuto No Ken Last Piece (couldn't find a scan in english. I only found this video) and kinda Attack Reflection with Nishi Shinku Ha? Also by the end of the series Kenshiro could redirect and easily Nullify Ki attacks.
 
Last edited:
Silvervigilant said:
Nice, I think you should probably put other basic abilities that's not in Ken's profile as well, such as

Acrobatics: Every fighter should already have this on their profile.

Body Control: Taiyan, a guy who can punch and kick behind his back, was impressed by Kasumi body control, Kenshiro was able to force blood sucking needles out of his body.

Statistics Amplification: By various ways, for example, by pressing the Sekkatsuko points, one can amplify their own strength for a short amount of time. With the Keiko technique hokuto fighters can increase their movement speed.

Afterimage Creation: Ken even in the beginning of the series could do that, Toki has also demonstrated that in his first fight against Raoh.

Information Analysis: Kaiser (Kenshiro and most Hokuto fighters scales above him) was able to see every possibly blind spot an opponent has as dots which light up when said blind spot is available. Kasumi can see a martial art’s blind spot, that is, he can perceive the split second in which the user focuses energy to throw an attack and use that knowledge to predict the attack, effectively negating the martial art as a whole. This martial art had no conventional blind spots the user could even punch and kick behind his back. Juza can read a martial art so well that he could predict every move from it.

Paralysis Inducement: Via various pressure points.

Forcefield Creation: Raoh was able to create a ki barrier.

Underground Mobility: Should be able to replicate what the nameless shura did

Ken (and other fighters) should also have Extrasensory Perception since the begnning of the series, due to the fact that even fodder fighters can sense ki, and maybe Size Manipulation for hokuto fighters, since Kasumi was able to increase his size using a hokuto technique and Ken also did the same thing in Hokuto No Ken Last Piece (couldn't find a scan in english. I only found this video) and kinda Attack Reflection with Nishi Shinku Ha? Also by the end of the series Kenshiro could redirect and easily Nullify Ki attacks.
Click to expand...
Just asking: you know how to differentiate the skills for touki practitioners in general, Hokuto Shinken practitioners specifically, or character specific right?
 
Jasonsith said:
Just asking: you know how to differentiate the skills for touki practitioners in general, Hokuto Shinken practitioners specifically, or character specific right?
Click to expand...
No me, like i say i haven't watch the series for a long time.
 
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So what have you agreed to apply here?
 
Antvasima said:
So what have you agreed to apply here?
Click to expand...
Silvervigilant said:
Nice, I think you should probably put other basic abilities that's not in Ken's profile as well, such as
Click to expand...
For quick additions: (what accepted by me are in italics)

Acrobatics: Every fighter should already have this on their profile.
Applicable for all touki users

Body Control: Taiyan, a guy who can punch and kick behind his back, was impressed by Kasumi body control, Kenshiro was able to force blood sucking needles out of his body.
Applicable for all touki users who practices Hokuto no Ken (includes Hokuto Shinken, Hokuto Ryuken, Hokuto Sogaken, Hokumon no Ken)

Statistics Amplification: By various ways, for example, by pressing the Sekkatsuko points, one can amplify their own strength for a short amount of time. With the Keiko technique hokuto fighters can increase their movement speed.
Applicable for all touki users who practices Hokuto no Ken (includes Hokuto Shinken, Hokuto Ryuken, Hokuto Sogaken, Hokumon no Ken)

Afterimage Creation: Ken even in the beginning of the series could do that, Toki has also demonstrated that in his first fight against Raoh.
Applicable for all touki users who practices Hokuto no Ken (includes Hokuto Shinken, Hokuto Ryuken, Hokuto Sogaken, Hokumon no Ken). Not sure if this applies to other practices like Nanto Seiken or Gento Koken.

Information Analysis: Kaiser (Kenshiro and most Hokuto fighters scales above him) was able to see every possibly blind spot an opponent has as dots which light up when said blind spot is available. Kasumi can see a martial art’s blind spot, that is, he can perceive the split second in which the user focuses energy to throw an attack and use that knowledge to predict the attack, effectively negating the martial art as a whole. This martial art had no conventional blind spots the user could even punch and kick behind his back. Juza can read a martial art so well that he could predict every move from it.
Applicable for all touki users

Paralysis Inducement: Via various pressure points.
Applicable for all touki users who practices Hokuto no Ken (includes Hokuto Shinken, Hokuto Ryuken, Hokuto Sogaken, Hokumon no Ken)

Forcefield Creation: Raoh was able to create a ki barrier.
Applicable for all touki users who practices Hokuto no Ken (includes Hokuto Shinken, Hokuto Ryuken, Hokuto Sogaken, Hokumon no Ken). Not sure if this applies to other practices like Nanto Seiken or Gento Koken.

Underground Mobility: Should be able to replicate what the nameless shura did
Applicable for all touki users (not sure if normal grunts can do that too because of some statements that Shura grunts are "famed/framed for" being as trong as ordinary touki users)

Ken (and other fighters) should also have Extrasensory Perception since the begnning of the series, due to the fact that even fodder fighters can sense ki, and maybe Size Manipulation for hokuto fighters, since Kasumi was able to increase his size using a hokuto technique and Ken also did the same thing in Hokuto No Ken Last Piece (couldn't find a scan in english. I only found this video) and kinda Attack Reflection with Nishi Shinku Ha? Also by the end of the series Kenshiro could redirect and easily Nullify Ki attacks.
Applicable for high tier touki users who practices Hokuto no Ken (includes Hokuto Shinken, Hokuto Ryuken, Hokuto Sogaken, Hokumon no Ken). Not sure if this applies to other practices like Nanto Seiken or Gento Koken.
 
I do not recall, sorry.

Anyway, are any of you willing and able to properly apply the remaining revisions here?
 
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