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Fist Of The North Star Revision Part 1 (P&A)

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Twellas said:
I swear I've gone into detail about this at least like 4 times already: Kasumi is stated to be able to "control his own fate", upon hearing this he thinks "does he know I'm a man of Hokuto?" meaning that men of Hokuto have the power to change their own fate, shown with Mang, a user of an Hokuto branch, who changed his own fate and prologued his life as a result. Hokuto Shinken presides over the fate of all living beings, whoever experiences the wrath of Hokuto is fated to die, the Hokuto successor is fated not to die, Ken can "overcome his destiny". This being said, the Hokuto successor still (willingly) follows the "will of the heavens", which is why Kasumi spares Liu, or Taiyan's brother, it can be understood to be a sort of "divine plan" that everyone follows and it includes the fact that the successor of Hokuto has to "shoulder a sad fate"
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I am so sorry for if i bothered you, thank you for responding so quickly i honestly did not know about a few of these and thanks for showing these scans to me.
 
Maxfireup said:
By the way about I have a few comments I would like to make about the hokuto no ken sandbox/respect threads, firstly you guys have wrote that ken has a resistance to all natural poisons, but in the manga it explicitly states that he actually has been gifted from birth with resistances to all poisonous substances.
Secondly Kaioh once brutally pierced his left pectoral with his right hand causing large spurts of blood to pour out occur and then his wound has almost totally sealed up in the second panel and lastly there are at least four times ken lifted massive boulders will they all be calculated?.
please respond when you can.
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For the poison resistance part... May I have scans with source quotes?

Limb tearing is not very impressive in vs debate terms.

The massive boulder feat and the giant pillar feat have their yields calculated.
vsbattles.fandom.com

Fist of the North Star Assorted Feats

vsbattles.fandom.com vsbattles.fandom.com
Maxfireup said:
once again i am sorry to bother everyone here but doesn't the Fist Of The North Star sandbox by Jasonsith and Stefano4444 say that The men of Hokuto can control and change their own fate. Toki, with his sheer skill and talent, bent Raoh's fate and manifested his harbinger of death. The Hokuto successor is destined not to die, conversely, those who experience his wrath are fated to die in accordance to the fact that the Big Dipper (IE, Hokuto) “presides over the fate of all living beings” and “governs death”
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Maxfireup said:
I am so sorry for if i bothered you, thank you for responding so quickly i honestly did not know about a few of these and thanks for showing these scans to me.
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Thank you for providing some scans in Discord.

Please quote relevant sources (page number, comic issue, comic run etc) - these would be helpful in adding to the page and help in better defining how fate manipulation works.

I may need to go back to that sandbox and double check too.
 
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Jasonsith said:
For the poison resistance part... May I have scans with source quotes?

Limb tearing is not very impressive in vs debate terms.

The massive boulder feat and the giant pillar feat have their yields calculated.
vsbattles.fandom.com

Fist of the North Star Assorted Feats

vsbattles.fandom.com vsbattles.fandom.com


Thank you for providing some scans in Discord.

Please quote relevant sources (page number, comic issue, comic run etc) - these would be helpful in adding to the page and help in better defining how fate manipulation works.

I may need to go back to that sandbox and double check too.
Click to expand...
i did not say he tore his limbs off, i said he pierced his left pectoral and here are the scans
thank you again for your rapid responses.
ken is even stated to have resistance since birth to poisonous substances vol 23, chapter 206
kaioh Quickly heals from an injury vol, 23 chapter 203
ken Lifts an incredibly large boulder vol, 22 chapter 192
ken Throws a large boulder into the air vol, 13 chapter 118
ken Lifts a boulder bigger than he is vol, 13, chapter 22
 
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Stefano4444 said:
Kenshiro:
Superhuman Physical Characteristics, Standard Kenpo Abilities, Genius Intelligence, Supernatural Willpower (Was able to stand up and fight Kaioh while in coma and unable to move his body, and was also able to overcome the vital point that Toki pressed which immobilizes one's body through sheer willpower), Social Influencing (Ken inspired Lin and multiple people to fight. Raiga and Fuga immediately placed all their trust in Ken. Shu sacrificed his own eyesight to save Kenshiro, despite the fact he had just met him. Ryuga who was loyal to Raoh, belived in Kenshiro by the end of his life. Even after Shachi turned into a monster Ken was able to completely change Shachi's heart to the point that Shachi would risk everything to protect him), Limited Sound Manipulation (Kenshiro is stated to be able to mimic many sounds, including animal cries), Photographic Memory (Stated to be capable of memorizing up to 50,000 words after reading them once. Comparable to Kasumi who demonstrated this), Master of Hokuto Shinken, Ryuken, Sonkaken, Sokaken, Nanto Seiken, Gento Koken, Kyokujuji Seiken and Seito Gekken, Mastery over Keiraku Hiko, Tōki, Tōki no Aura and Tōshin no Aura

Intelligence: Genius in daily aspects; Extraordinary Genius in regards to combat (Kenshiro stands as one of the most skilled fighter in his setting, likely comparable to all his predecessors and having absolute mastery over every single martial art displayed throughout the series. He has uncanny precision, to the point of being able to strike a pressure point as small as the tip of a pin with a strand of hair. His memory is refined to the point that he's able to memorize up to 50,000 words after reading them once. His technique and grace are unrivaled. He's capable of mastering an opponent's martial art after seeing it once, to the point where he can simply nullify its effects and see right through it. He can copy and adapt to incredibly complex techniques on the fly, such as when he adapted to Anryū Tenha's space-warping ability, when he surpassed Solia's prowess in Gento Kō Ken [a martial art once deemed to be more deadly than Hokuto Shinken and with 2000 years of history], after only seeing a single move of said style or when he managed to fight Raoh to a standstill and would have killed him had he not been stopped, despite Toki stating only minutes prior that Ken didn't even have a 1% chance of defeating Raoh. He's stated to have "infinite potential" in terms of technique and combat prowess multiple times throughout the series. Scales significantly above Toki, who, with his sheer skill and talent, bent Raoh's fate and manifested his harbinger of death. Shown multiple times throughout the series to be capable of demolishing entire armies all by himself, stated by enemy soldiers to "march calmly, unstoppable, through thousands of soldiers like he was in the middle of an empty field", casually crushed both Falco's and Jakoh's armies at the same time. Even before his final fight against Raoh and achieving Muso Tensei, he was unfathomably above combatants such as the Red Berrets, who are each capable of defeating 500 soldiers at the same time, and defeated their general with his eyes closed. In that same fight, Ken states that due to the nature of Hokuto Shinken's transmission, it's like he has 1800 years worth of combat experience and training, he was an assassin from the very moment he was born. Hokuto Shinken's very nature is of one adaptability and it has infinite fighting variations in order to overcome every obstacle and opponent, no matter the difference in strength)

Resistance to Radiation Manipulation (Jagi was fine after taking a nuke, and Toki was bombarded by radiation for 2 weeks straight), Poison Manipulation (Kenshiro can endure 5 times the lethal dose of potassium cyanide. Also resists paralytic gas and is even stated to be resistant to all natural poisons), Mind Manipulation (Kenshiro easily resisted a mind control attack from Geira), Heat Manipulation and Fire Manipulation (Kasumi could barely feel fire in his body. Liu Zongwu was fine after having his whole body engulfed by flames. Kenshiro has tanked fire from a barrage of flamethrowers and caught a volcanic rock with his bare hands. Raoh was able to withstand Shuren’s flames like they’re nothing. Both Kaioh and Hyoh’s Bodies were not incinerated after being engulfed by lava), Electricity Manipulation (Kenshiro shrugged off an electricity gate that would have burned a human to a crisp. Liu Zongwu was fine after taking 1000 volts), Limited Existence Erasure (Kenshiro was able to resist Gento’s cellular erasing attacks), Pain Manipulation (Rei was able to resist a pain so unbearable that could drive a person insane or outright kill him. Jagi remained standing even after Ken put an arrow in his hypersensitive body. Shu didn't seem to feel any pain after slashing his own eyes. Falco cut off his own leg like it was nothing.)

Jagi:
Superhuman Physical Characteristics, Standard Kenpo Abilities, Social Influencing (Manipulated Shin into defeating Kenshiro and kidnapping his fiancée Yuriaa), Master of Hokuto Shinken (Aside for Soryu Tenha, Tenha Kassatsu and Musō Tensei), Mastery over Keiraku Hiko and Tōki

Amiba:
Superhuman Physical Characteristics, Standard Kenpo Abilities

Ryuken:
Superhuman Physical Characteristics, Standard Kenpo Abilities, Master of Hokuto Shinken, Mastery over Keiraku Hiko, Tōki and Tōki no Aura

Toki:
Superhuman Physical Characteristics, Standard Kenpo Abilities, Genius Intelligence, Supernatural Willpower (Comparable to Kenshiro. Kept healing and helping innocent people even when gravely ill), Social Influencing (Indirectly create a cult around him in Village of Miracle where he was worshipped as a messiah), Photographic Memory (Comparable to Kenshiro), Master of Hokuto Shinken (aside for Musō Tensei), Mastery over Keiraku Hiko, Tōki and Tōki no Aura

Raoh:
Superhuman Physical Characteristics, Standard Kenpo Abilities, Genius Intelligence, Supernatural Willpower (Comparable to Kenshiro), Social Influencing (Quickly grew an army made up by loyal soldiers who are willing to die for him. Taimed his horse Kokuoh, a violent giant horse, by euthanize her fatally wounded foal which earned Kokuoh's respect), Photographic Memory (Comparable to Kenshiro), Master of Hokuto Shinken, Mastery over Keiraku Hiko, Tōki and Tōki no Aura

Kaioh:
Superhuman Physical Characteristics, Standard Kenpo Abilities, Genius Intelligence, Social Influencing, Master of Hokuto Shinken (aside for Soryu Tenha, Tenha Kassatsu and Musō Tensei) and Ryuken, Mastery over Keiraku Hiko, Tōki, Tōki no Aura, Tōshin no Aura, Matōki no Aura and Tōshin no Aura

Hyoh:
Superhuman Physical Characteristics, Standard Kenpo Abilities, Master of Hokuto Shinken (aside for Soryu Tenha, Tenha Kassatsu and Musō Tensei) and Ryuken, Mastery over Keiraku Hiko, Tōki, Tōki no Aura, Matōki no Aura and Tōshin no Aura

Han:
Superhuman Physical Characteristics, Standard Kenpo Abilities, Master of Hokuto Shinken (aside for Soryu Tenha, Tenha Kassatsu and Musō Tensei) and Ryuken, Mastery over Keiraku Hiko, Tōki and Tōki no Aura

Shachi:
Superhuman Physical Characteristics, Standard Kenpo Abilities, Master of Hokuto Shinken (aside for Soryu Tenha, Tenha Kassatsu and Musō Tensei) and Ryuken, Mastery over Keiraku Hiko, Tōki and Tōki no Aura

Kasumi Kenshiro:
Superhuman Physical Characteristics, Standard Kenpo Abilities, Genius Intelligence, Supernatural Willpower (Compable to his nephew), Social Influencing, Photographic Memory (Has been able to read and memorize 1000 pages of an ancient Chinese manuscript in a week as well as read through a five-book set and write them down on a notebook), Master of Hokuto Shinken, Ryuken, Sonkaken, Sokaken, Nanto Seiken, Gento Koken, Kyokujuji Seiken and Seito Gekken, Mastery over Keiraku Hiko, Tōki, Tōki no Aura and Tōshin no Aura

Intelligence: Genius in daily aspects; Extraordinary Genius in regards to combat (Kenshiro is a university lecturer who is fluent in four different languages. As a scholar, he is well-versed in many subjects, has a photographic memory (ex. has been able to read and memorize 1000 pages of an ancient Chinese manuscript in a week as well as read through a five-book set and write them down on a notebook), and, as the 62nd successor to Hokuto Shinken, very skilled when it comes to combat and martial arts. In addition he is also knowledgeable in the ways of healing, stating that he has various techniques he can use in order to heal his body. Is a master assassin who is far above the vast majority of people in the series. Touched the Hokuto statue, which made him live through the lives of every single successor in the 1800-year history of Hokuto, effectively meaning that he has 1800 years of combat experience. Mastered Musou Tensei on a level higher than his nephew Kenshiro as he can use it unconsciously)

Liu Zongwu:
Superhuman Physical Characteristics, Standard Kenpo Abilities, Master of Hokuto Shinken (aside for Soryu Tenha, Tenha Kassatsu and Musō Tensei) and Ryuken, Mastery over Keiraku Hiko, Tōki, Tōki no Aura and Tōshin no Aura

Charles De Guise:
Superhuman Physical Characteristics, Standard Kenpo Abilities, Master of Hokuto Shinken (aside for Soryu Tenha, Tenha Kassatsu and Musō Tensei) and Sonkaken, Mastery over Keiraku Hiko, Tōki and Tōki no Aura

Mang Kuangyun:
Superhuman Physical Characteristics, Standard Kenpo Abilities, Master of Hokuto Shinken (aside for Soryu Tenha, Tenha Kassatsu and Musō Tensei) and Sonkaken, Mastery over Keiraku Hiko, Tōki and Tōki no Aura

Zhang Taiyan:
Superhuman Physical Characteristics, Standard Kenpo Abilities, Master of Hokuto Shinken (aside for Soryu Tenha, Tenha Kassatsu and Musō Tensei) and Sokaken, Mastery over Keiraku Hiko, Tōki and Tōki no Aura

Liu Feiyan:
Superhuman Physical Characteristics, Standard Kenpo Abilities, Master of Hokuto Shinken (aside for Soryu Tenha, Tenha Kassatsu and Musō Tensei) and Kyokujuji Seiken, Mastery over Keiraku Hiko, Tōki and Tōki no Aura
Click to expand...
Stefano4444 said:
Souther:
Superhuman Physical Characteristics, Standard Kenpo Abilities, Master of Nanto Seiken, Mastery over Tōki and Tōki no Aura, Skilled in Keiraku Hiko

Rei:
Superhuman Physical Characteristics, Standard Kenpo Abilities, Master of Nanto Seiken, Mastery over Tōki and Tōki no Aura, Skilled in Keiraku Hiko

Shin:
Superhuman Physical Characteristics, Standard Kenpo Abilities, Master of Nanto Seiken, Mastery over Tōki and Tōki no Aura, Skilled in Keiraku Hiko

Yuda:
Superhuman Physical Characteristics, Standard Kenpo Abilities, Master of Nanto Seiken, Mastery over Tōki and Tōki no Aura, Skilled in Keiraku Hiko

Juza:
Superhuman Physical Characteristics, Standard Kenpo Abilities, Master of Nanto Seiken, Mastery over Tōki and Tōki no Aura

Fudou:
Superhuman Physical Characteristics, Standard Kenpo Abilities, Master of Nanto Seiken, Mastery over Tōki and Tōki no Aura

Ryuga:
Superhuman Physical Characteristics, Standard Kenpo Abilities, Cold Manipulation (with Ryuga’s Taizan Tenro Ken), Mastery over Tōki and Tōki no Aura

Falco:
Superhuman Physical Characteristics, Standard Kenpo Abilities, Master of Gento Koken, Mastery over Tōki and Tōki no Aura

Shu:
Superhuman Physical Characteristics, Standard Kenpo Abilities, Master of Nanto Seiken, Mastery over Tōki and Tōki no Aura, Skilled in Keiraku Hiko
Click to expand...
Since the upgrade for Powers and Abilities for the cast it more or less had been accepted, can i at least apply them so that we can finally focus to the other stuff?
 
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Also, I have a bit of an issue with the scan showing resistance to mind manipulation, since we see Kenshiro holding his nose as that fat hypnotist emits some hypnotic gas from his mouth, so I'm not sure if Kenshiro naturally resisted it or only resisted it due to not breathing the gas in.
 
FoxySonicMaster108 said:
I haven’t checked this thread in a while, is possible to recap what has happened so far?
Click to expand...
To sum originally this was suppost to be a downgrade but then it turned into a full overhaul to everyone of all cast.

From making a whole blog to include all Powers and Abilities (which its mostly completed) to the entire revision on AP and Speed scaling (which its yet to trully start).
 
Some new stuff I found

In one guidebook they ask an actual scientist to do some calculations in regards to some scenes from the manga. He calculated that the amount of radiation Toki was exposed to was 50 BILLION times higher than the dosage that would instantly kill a normal human (not over time, just kill him on the spot upon exposure), equivalent to approximately 15 trillion joules per kilogram of bodyweight, since Toki most likely weighs 100kg, he endured 1.5x10^15 Joules, which is Large Town level just off of the radiations alone, ignoring the fact that the latest guidebook states that Toki was straight up nuked while outside the bunker.
 
Eseseso said:
Also, I have a bit of an issue with the scan showing resistance to mind manipulation, since we see Kenshiro holding his nose as that fat hypnotist emits some hypnotic gas from his mouth, so I'm not sure if Kenshiro naturally resisted it or only resisted it due to not breathing the gas in.
Click to expand...
I think that the gas was just a support to Geira's mind manipulation technique (the technique might be just the yo-yo movements + words) and since the gas could have been chemical/non natural, Kenshiro had to avoid breathing it since he's only got resistance to natural poison. Might be a bit strechted as reason, but yeah I'm trying.
 
Eseseso said:
Also, I have a bit of an issue with the scan showing resistance to mind manipulation, since we see Kenshiro holding his nose as that fat hypnotist emits some hypnotic gas from his mouth, so I'm not sure if Kenshiro naturally resisted it or only resisted it due to not breathing the gas in.
Click to expand...
Kaioh also needs some specific breath holding technique when luring Kensiro into a cavern with poisonous gas and fighting him there. Kenshiro is not immediately poisoned to death but he clearly performs worse before unlocking Kaioh's breath holding technique and forces him to get out of the cavern as well.



Can anyone explain how Hokuto Ryuken users are inaccessible from Tenha Kassatsu and Soryu Tenra. (It has been clarified that Musou Tensei is a trick only Kasumi Kenshiro, Kenshiro and Raoh were shown to have learnt)
 
Jasonsith said:
Kaioh also needs some specific breath holding technique when luring Kensiro into a cavern with poisonous gas and fighting him there. Kenshiro is not immediately poisoned to death but he clearly performs worse before unlocking Kaioh's breath holding technique and forces him to get out of the cavern as well.
Click to expand...
So do you think the mind manipulation resistance feat should be removed?
 
Eseseso said:
Because Kenshiro seems to have mainly resisted the hypnotism due to not breathing in the hypnotic gas, not because of an inherent resistance.
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May I have the scans? Thanks.

Yes it has to be removed if he only shows not being hypnotised by not breathing in hypnosis gas... but first I need the scans.

Also, have other Hokuto Shinken practitioners (or touki users in general) shown to resist hypnosis even if they breathe in hypnosis gas?


Off topic: Jagi barely undid one body puppetry / mind control by Kenshiro during his "final fight" with Kenshiro. That Kenshiro poked Jagi, Jagi almost turned his gun against himself, but he undid it with great difficulty. What resistance does that count?
 
Jasonsith said:
May I have the scans? Thanks.

Yes it has to be removed if he only shows not being hypnotised by not breathing in hypnosis gas... but first I need the scans.
Click to expand...
Mind Manipulation (Kenshiro easily resisted a mind control attack from Geira), from Kenshiro's current profile.

Jasonsith said:
Also, have other Hokuto Shinken practitioners (or touki users in general) shown to resist hypnosis even if they breathe in hypnosis gas?
Click to expand...
No idea.
Jasonsith said:
Off topic: Jagi barely undid one body puppetry / mind control by Kenshiro during his "final fight" with Kenshiro. That Kenshiro poked Jagi, Jagi almost turned his gun against himself, but he undid it with great difficulty. What resistance does that count?
Click to expand...
Seems to be resistance to body puppetry, maybe mind control but I'd need the scan.
 
Jasonsith said:
Off topic: Jagi barely undid one body puppetry / mind control by Kenshiro during his "final fight" with Kenshiro. That Kenshiro poked Jagi, Jagi almost turned his gun against himself, but he undid it with great difficulty. What resistance does that count?
Click to expand...
Eseseso said:
Seems to be resistance to body puppetry, maybe mind control but I'd need the scan.
Click to expand...
Jagi had to strike a pressure point on his arm to make himself let go of the gun, that's more of a counter if anything. I doubt that would give resistance.
 
I'm sorry to add fuel to the fire, but there's one thing i've been itching to have added:

Pretty much every character's speed rating should include a "far higher via precognition and instinctive reaction", it's been shown numerous times that fighters as a whole can dodge and counter attacks that surpass their own perception speed: Taiyan managed to dodge an attack from Kasumi despite not even being able to see it; during Rofuu's fight with Freja, she's explicitely shown and stated to be FTE to Rofuu, but he still dodges her attacks and claims that "that's not fast enough to catch me", Freja procedes to amp her speed to even higher levels to the point where Rofuu sees her afterimages but despite this he still tags her; Liu dodges and counters Kasumi's keikojutsu which was portrayed as being FTE to him; it's heavily implied that throughout the entire fight between Han and Ken they actually couldn't see each other's punches and despite this they can counter and block each other perfectly.
 
Ok, i have upgraded the P&A of all profiles.

We can finally start discuss about the scaling and multipliers for AP and Speed, either here or in another CRT since this its getting very long.
 
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