Fist Of The North Star Revision Part 1 (P&A)

[Silvervigilant]

Are you getting close to a final ending agreement to this discussion soon?

Well everyone pretty much agreed with the inclusion of the new abilities, but there's still some kind of dispute over the TKH mulripliers.

 

[Antvasima]

Hmm. Can somebody place a message on my forum wall after you have finally finished and I should come here to give a go-ahead?

 

[Twellas]

I think we should also make profile for the REGENESIS Tento users like Kolk, Shamra and Komura, all three scale to post-seals Kasumi, so they should scale to wherever EOS Ken tier is, given how, despite Ken being stated numerous times to be stronger than Kasumi via being the "strongest man of Hokuto", they are still pretty much equal by Hara's own WOG

 

[Silvervigilant]

I think we should also make profile for the REGENESIS Tento users like Kolk, Shamra and Komura, all three scale to post-seals Kasumi, so they should scale to wherever EOS Ken tier is, given how, despite Ken being stated numerous times to be stronger than Kasumi via being the "strongest man of Hokuto", they are still pretty much equal by Hara's own WOG

Agree

 

[FoxySonicMaster108]

I agree with all the powers that have been listed btw, just saying that now.

I still think stuff like Tenryū Kokyū Hō being a 3.33X multiplier is still legit, since it just taps into the rest of the users power, so Ken without it is only using 30%, him saying "a normal human can only tap into 30%" doesn't really debunk it since Ken himself (before using Tenryū Kokyū Hō) is using that same 30% as a normal human would. (Not to mention it's been accepted as a multiplier even before all the High 6-A upgrades so I don't see the issue with it now)

 

[Antvasima]

Can somebody explain the issues that currently need staff evaluations here please?

 

[Stefano4444]

Can somebody explain the issues that currently need staff evaluations here please?

We are waiting for Twellas to finish the Verse-specific Powers and Abilities's Page for Hokuto Shinken and the other main Martial Arts of the series.

Aside for that the Tenryu Kokyu Hou legitimacy of being a multiplier its still discussed, but it seen to have been delayed until we finish the mentioned above page.

Other than that i don't recall any other major issues, aside maybe for the SoL/FTL feats, but it seen most of us agree on their legitimacy.

 

[Antvasima]

We are waiting for Twellas to finish the Verse-specific Powers and Abilities's Page for Hokuto Shinken and the other main Martial Arts of the series.

Aside for that the Tenryu Kokyu Hou legitimacy of being a multiplier its still discussed, but it has been delayed until we finish the mentioned above page.

Other than that i don't recall any other major issues, aside maybe for the SoL/FTL feats, but it seen most of us agree on their legitimacy.

Okay. That is good then.

@Twellas

How is your work with this proceeding?

 

[Twellas]

I haven't started the page yet because I've been busy reading and analysing the HNK novel, which takes place after the mainline series, it's been an absolute pain in the ass to find and I had to scour through old italian forums, but I found it and read it.
There are no noteworthy feats in terms of power or speed (the only thing is Ken leaving an afterimage that lasts several seconds) but there are a few good skill feats, for instance, he has another form of precog, where he uses the opponent's breathing-rhythm to predict their moves, info analysis, seeing a person is enough for him to perfectly know his strength, average human bandits have an instinct that warns them when someone is stronger than them; general combat IQ, in HNK you pretty much have to fight in apnea because the slight loosening of muscles and the minuscule amount of nerves devoted to such an act and not the fight could be used by the opponent to win.
Also, there's an average human who attacks Ken and whose speed and power are doubled by being enraged, which kinda proves that rage does indeed constitute a multiplier

 

[Eseseso]

I haven't started the page yet because I've been busy reading and analysing the HNK novel, which takes place after the mainline series, it's been an absolute pain in the ass to find and I had to scour through old italian forums, but I found it and read it.
There are no noteworthy feats in terms of power or speed (the only thing is Ken leaving an afterimage that lasts several seconds) but there are a few good skill feats, for instance, he has another form of precog, where he uses the opponent's breathing-rhythm to predict their moves, info analysis, seeing a person is enough for him to perfectly know his strength, average human bandits have an instinct that warns them when someone is stronger than them; general combat IQ, in HNK you pretty much have to fight in apnea because the slight loosening of muscles and the minuscule amount of nerves devoted to such an act and not the fight could be used by the opponent to win.
Also, there's an average human who attacks Ken and whose speed and power are doubled by being enraged, which kinda proves that rage does indeed constitute a multiplier

Nice job finding this stuff, @Twellas (seriously, you sometimes carry this verse), but could we really assume that rage is always a 2x multiplier?

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thank you for helping out.

What do the rest of you think?

 

[Twellas]

could we really assume that rage is always a 2x multiplier?

no, Hokuto users' should be much higher logically, since rage is literally the basis of Hokuto shinken and it's shown to create a no-selling gap, but it's just a nice bow on top to the idea that rage is an actual power boost

 

[Eseseso]

no, Hokuto users' should be much higher logically, since rage is literally the basis of Hokuto shinken and it's shown to create a no-selling gap, but it's just a nice bow on top to the idea that rage is an actual power boost

That makes sense. If a normal pleb gets a 2x multiplier, then for HNK users it should be way higher.

If the multipliers are accepted, then by stacking Rage Power with the other 2 multipliers, that gets him to 2 zettatons.

And if that Goten Sho calc that you made ever gets accepted at the high-end, that could boost the values even further (since 30% Raoh would scale far above it, though I don't know if Pre-Toki Bind Kenshiro would be able to scale to it).

 

[Silvervigilant]

I haven't started the page yet because I've been busy reading and analysing the HNK novel, which takes place after the mainline series, it's been an absolute pain in the ass to find and I had to scour through old italian forums, but I found it and read it.
There are no noteworthy feats in terms of power or speed (the only thing is Ken leaving an afterimage that lasts several seconds) but there are a few good skill feats, for instance, he has another form of precog, where he uses the opponent's breathing-rhythm to predict their moves, info analysis, seeing a person is enough for him to perfectly know his strength, average human bandits have an instinct that warns them when someone is stronger than them; general combat IQ, in HNK you pretty much have to fight in apnea because the slight loosening of muscles and the minuscule amount of nerves devoted to such an act and not the fight could be used by the opponent to win.
Also, there's an average human who attacks Ken and whose speed and power are doubled by being enraged, which kinda proves that rage does indeed constitute a multiplier

That's great @Twellas nice to see some feats from the novel, i never had the opportunity to read Jubaku No Machi, i only watched the Shin Hokuto No Ken OVAS, which apparently is quite different from the novel.

 

[Eseseso]

I wonder if that Raoh story "Tales of the Dark King" has any abilities, because that anime was honestly pretty decent.

It helps that Raoh is my favorite character in FOTNS, followed by Kasumi.

 

[Silvervigilant]

I wonder if that Raoh story "Tales of the Dark King" has any abilities, because that anime was honestly pretty decent.

I only watched the anime, but from what i have been told it's pretty close to the manga, i remember that there was a bunch of different martial arts.

 

[Antvasima]

I haven't read FotNS, but the art in Fist of the Blue Sky is amazing, and the protagonist also seems more sympathetic, and the setting less depressing.

 

[Eseseso]

I haven't read FotNS, but the art in Fist of the Blue Sky is amazing, and the protagonist also seems more sympathetic, and the setting less depressing.

How is Kasumi more sympathetic than Ken?

I'd agree that Kasumi is definitely more relatable than Ken, but both are sympathetic since both live in crappy times.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I haven't read FotNS, so I am likely off in my evaluation. It is a post-apocalyptic setting, so a more ruthless approach is probably necessary.

 

[Twellas]

How is Kasumi more sympathetic than Ken?

because he actually acts like a human being lmao.
Yeah, Ken's circumstanced were completely different and his attitude makes sense, but Kasumi is like, an objectively chiller, funnier guy

 

[Jasonsith]

because he actually acts like a human being lmao.
Yeah, Ken's circumstanced were completely different and his attitude makes sense, but Kasumi is like, an objectively chiller, funnier guy

Kasumi is the one with more senses of humor sure.

We are waiting for Twellas to finish the Verse-specific Powers and Abilities's Page for Hokuto Shinken and the other main Martial Arts of the series.

Let us wait.

Aside for that the Tenryu Kokyu Hou legitimacy of being a multiplier it's still discussed, but it seen to have been delayed until we finish the mentioned above page.

A little recap
Arguments for the value of 3.3333x being a multiplier for versus debating and powerscaling purpose
1. A direct blind simple takeaway from the statement 'Ken stated that "normal humans can use 30% of their power/potential but (Ken) can use 100%"' and 100/30 = 3.3333...
2. It somehow allows character stats be downscaled or upscaled from one accepted feat instead of evaluating on multiple feats.
3. It allows differentiating different levels of characters instead of stating "everyone is comparable to or stronger than Jagi" or "everyone is comparable to Kaioh"

Arguments against the value of 3.3333x being a multiplier for versus debating and powerscaling purpose
1. That it serves more as a plot device in deciding a character gaining an advantage
(that Kenshiro flexed against Devil Rebirth after using TKH)
2. That the multiplying effect can get messy if the effect is permanent
3. That the value may not even be a set value. Blitzing a character usually gets 7.5x (borrowed from the AP stomp ratio), and by plot one character can just suddenly be able to dodge from one attack that one cannot normally dodge, or hit something that one normally cannot hit.
4. That bulking can be just one way of amplifying strength temporarily and this may not even be TKH.
5. That the battle value multiplications may not be directly correlated to the attack potency that is used for discussion on powerscaling and versus debating. It can be more of a skill utilisation or battle experience thing.
6. Ken stated that "normal humans can use 30% of their power/potential but (Ken) can use 100%" can just mean Ken can use more skills, have better stamina, etc. Again, not essentially an attack potency for versus debating purpose.
7. We have set standards on what to be accepted as multipliers. It is literally stated that "For example could a fiction in principle have a character become a 10 times more dangerous fighter just by increasing his combat technique, with only minor increases in stats." Tenryu kokyu Hou actually falls into this.

Other than that i don't recall any other major issues, aside maybe for the SoL/FTL feats, but it seen most of us agree on their legitimacy.

We have set standards of light dodging feats and lightning tagging feats.
Statements overlapped by statements are dangerous ways in deriving FTL speed.

And this does not count since it can simply be omitted drawing.

Other than those, we have low MHS to low MHS+ evaluated speed feats at best.

 

[Twellas]

1. That it serves more as a plot device in deciding a character gaining an advantage
(that Kenshiro flexed against Devil Rebirth after using TKH)

non-argument

2. That the multiplying effect can get messy if the effect is permanent

it's not permanent

3. That the value may not even be a set value. Blitzing a character usually gets 7.5x (borrowed from the AP stomp ratio), and by plot one character can just suddenly be able to dodge from one attack that one cannot normally dodge, or hit something that one normally cannot hit.

you're imposing VSBW convention to a fictional verse over the stated lore

4. That bulking can be just one way of amplifying strength temporarily and this may not even be TKH.

TKH is the only quantified amp, so regardless of whatever other amp Ken is using, it would still be lowballed to a 3x via every other amp being superior to TKH

5. That the battle value multiplications may not be directly correlated to the attack potency that is used for discussion on powerscaling and versus debating. It can be more of a skill utilisation or battle experience thing.

no, it's plainly stated and shown to be strength and speed

6. Ken stated that "normal humans can use 30% of their power/potential but (Ken) can use 100%" can just mean Ken can use more skills, have better stamina, etc. Again, not essentially an attack potency for versus debating purpose.

already debunked, all he's saying is that non-Shinken users use only 30% of their own potential regardless of how strong they are

7. We have set standards on what to be accepted as multipliers. It is literally stated that "For example could a fiction in principle have a character become a 10 times more dangerous fighter just by increasing his combat technique, with only minor increases in stats." Tenryu kokyu Hou actually falls into this.

as I already said, no

And this does not count since it can simply be omitted drawing.

prove it, it MAYBE being omitted drawing doesn't change the fact that the shadow isn't there. We're talkinga bout this artist, are you seriously gonna look at me and use "he forgot to draw the shadow" as an argument?

Other than those, we have low MHS to low MHS+ evaluated speed feats at best.

and we have several FTL ones

 

[Twellas]

I'm not even that diehard on the "Tenryu is strictly a 3.3x amp" thing, but the arguments against it here just don't hold up

 

[Silvervigilant]

1. That it serves more as a plot device in deciding a character gaining an advantage

It's a literal technique.

2. That the multiplying effect can get messy if the effect is permanent

It is not.

3. That the value may not even be a set value. Blitzing a character usually gets 7.5x (borrowed from the AP stomp ratio), and by plot one character can just suddenly be able to dodge from one attack that one cannot normally dodge, or hit something that one normally cannot hit.

As i said earlier, while here, it has to be 7.5 times to be called AP stomp and speed blitz. i don't think that the Tenryu Kokyu Ho makes the user 7.5 times more powerful, i mean a 80's series had no way of knowing that in VSBW one had to be 7.5 times more powerful to blitz the someone, Kenshiro accurately states that TKH makes someone use the rest 70% of his power (aka getting 3.33x stronger) , there's no problem in taking his words literally, him speed blitzing a foe just serves to show that he gets more powerful after using TKH.

4. That bulking can be just one way of amplifying strength temporarily and this may not even be TKH.

It's consistently shown that everytime we see Kenshiro using TKH, there's a increase in his muscle mass.

5. That the battle value multiplications may not be directly correlated to the attack potency that is used for discussion on powerscaling and versus debating. It can be more of a skill utilisation or battle experience thing.

No it's explicitly stated to be a stat boost

6. Ken stated that "normal humans can use 30% of their power/potential but (Ken) can use 100%" can just mean Ken can use more skills, have better stamina, etc. Again, not essentially an attack potency for versus debating purpose.

Again if Hokuto Shinken users already used 100% of their power by nature, there wouldn't exist a technique for it, it would be just them being them, also in Ken's rage, the description for Tenryu Kokyu Ho is "A breathing technique that unleashes the fearsome power which resides within the human body. Most people only use 30% of their physical capacity, but this technique allows Kenshiro to unlock the full 100%." there it is, it clearly states that is the Tenryu Kokyu Ho that allows Ken to unlock 100% of his power.

7. We have set standards on what to be accepted as multipliers. It is literally stated that "For example could a fiction in principle have a character become a 10 times more dangerous fighter just by increasing his combat technique, with only minor increases in stats." Tenryu kokyu Hou actually falls into this.

No, Tenryu Kokyu Ho has no contradictions within the series, and does not clash with VSBW standards.

Statements overlapped by statements are dangerous ways in deriving FTL spee

But we have feats, such as Ken clearly reacting to Falco's light, which is stated on panel to be light and behaves like it.

 

[Twellas]

I'm not even that diehard on the "Tenryu is strictly a 3.3x amp" thing, but the arguments against it here just don't hold up

As I said here, due to the wording, I'm open to Tenryu being more than a 3x amp, the term "potential" just reeks of "there's more to it" to me, but until there's more evidence, the 3x is the only thing we have

 

[Stefano4444]

Bump

 

[Twellas]

I started the blog, you can help out if you want, I've been doing it in my very little free time, so it's still far from done, help would be appreciated

 

[Antvasima]

Are any of you willing to help Twellas out please?

 

[Silvervigilant]

Are any of you willing to help Twellas out please?

Sorry i was quite busy these days. How can i help?

 

[Jasonsith]

Can be side training or not but I want to say:

By looking into the profiles of Bleach, I think we can classify the touki practitioners into similar ways: some are shared abilities, some are specific to Hokuto no Ken branch, some are specific to Hokuto Shinken (low to god tiers), some are specific to only higher tiers of the branch/sub branch.

I think classification in this way will be far better than how Twellas' current blog is presenting. Maybe he is trying to present what I say but he has a lot of presentation rework to do.

 

[Silvervigilant]

Bump

 

[Antvasima]

If somebody writes a list of all the knowledgeable members who have helped out in this thread earlier, I can send a notification message to them afterwards, so we can get something constructive done here.

 

[Antvasima]

I started the blog, you can help out if you want, I've been doing it in my very little free time, so it's still far from done, help would be appreciated

Also...

 

[Silvervigilant]

Also...

I want to help with the blog

 

[Antvasima]

I want to help with the blog

@Twellas

 

[Silvervigilant]

So I just re-read most of HNK and SNK like i was a speedrunner, and i made a doc of most of the abilities that should be put in the blog and trust me, there is alot, still i would appreciate if @Twellas provided the scans for:

Hokuto Sonkaken:
-Empowerment/Statistics Amplification:
-Vibration Manipulation:

Hokuto Sokaken:
-Selective Intangibility:

Kyokujuji Seiken:
-Likely Pressure Points:

Tento Seiken:
-Transmutation:
-Petrification:
-Immortality Type 2, 8:
-Forcefield Creation:

Other than that, we should discuss about the abilities, and make corrections if necessary.

OBS: The "Non-Specific Abilities" and "Non-Specific Resistances" sections, will not necessarily be put in the blog, i just put there in case i'll forget.

 

[Antvasima]

So I just re-read most of HNK and SNK like i was a speedrunner, and i made a doc of most of the abilities that should be put in the blog and trust me, there is alot, still i would appreciate if @Twellas provided the scans for:

Hokuto Sonkaken:
-Empowerment/Statistics Amplification:
-Vibration Manipulation:

Hokuto Sokaken:
-Selective Intangibility:

Kyokujuji Seiken:
-Likely Pressure Points:

Tento Seiken:
-Transmutation:
-Petrification:
-Immortality Type 2, 8:
-Forcefield Creation:

Other than that, we should discuss about the abilities, and make corrections if necessary.

OBS: The "Non-Specific Abilities" and "Non-Specific Resistances" sections, will not necessarily be put in the blog, i just put there in case i'll forget.

@Twellas @Stefano4444 @FoxySonicMaster108 @Eseseso @Jasonsith

 

[Jasonsith]

@Twellas @Stefano4444 @FoxySonicMaster108 @Eseseso @Jasonsith

I am fine with the addition of powers and abilities a s long as they are properly supported by picture scans and relevant chapters.

 

[Eseseso]

So I just re-read most of HNK and SNK like i was a speedrunner, and i made a doc of most of the abilities that should be put in the blog and trust me, there is alot, still i would appreciate if @Twellas provided the scans for:

Hokuto Sonkaken:
-Empowerment/Statistics Amplification:
-Vibration Manipulation:

Hokuto Sokaken:
-Selective Intangibility:

Kyokujuji Seiken:
-Likely Pressure Points:

Tento Seiken:
-Transmutation:
-Petrification:
-Immortality Type 2, 8:
-Forcefield Creation:

Other than that, we should discuss about the abilities, and make corrections if necessary.

OBS: The "Non-Specific Abilities" and "Non-Specific Resistances" sections, will not necessarily be put in the blog, i just put there in case i'll forget.

Looks good to me.

 

[Eseseso]

Does anyone know whether Kasumi gets any power amps from the Goddess of Hokuto? Like when he summons her or anything else he does that's related to her?