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Fist Of The North Star Revision Part 1 (P&A)

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Silvervigilant said:
That's the Tenha Stance, not the Tenha Kassatsu. The tenha stance has a different finality than the Tenha Kassatsu.
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Raoh's statement quite literally means that the stance and Tenha Kossatsu are one and the same, he calls the stance "the hidden secret technique", the translation for the stance's name is "stance of celestial destruction" and the beam-shooting is called "EXECUTION of celestial destruction", saying that the stance could exist by itself without the tenha kassatsu part is ridiculous, why would they have a stance that does literally nothing as an hidden secret technique?
Silvervigilant said:
Kasumi literally says "This is a secret technique of Hokuto Shinken: Tenha Kassatsu" and does the exact same thing that Ken's tenha kassatsu does which is striking the opponent's pressure points without needing to touch them, the only minor diference is that Kasumi choosed to only use one finger instead of them all but the techniques still the same.
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yeah but it looks nothing like Ken's, it also doesn't come from the stance, soooo?
Silvervigilant said:
Ken should absolutely be able to use that version Tenha Kassatsu, and Kasumi can do Ken's version as well, they are absolutely masters of the same martial art for God sake. If we start to nitpick minor differences bewteen the mangas we will end up with no scaling whatsover. things like we never saw Kasumi use the Kento Shadan or the Toshin no Aura, so he shouldn't have it, he should not have Nanto as well since we never saw him using, we also never saw Ken using Hokuto Shinhozan so shouldn't have it, or Ken and Kasumi MT are portrayed different from each other so they should not share the same abillities the same thing with their Ujo Mosho Ha, or their rituals are different so Kasumi should not have imunnity to pressure points and Ken should not have summoning. If we do this we are ignoring the fact that the WOG said they're are equals.
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what I'm saying is that, we have pretty definitive evidence of Tenha Kassatsu already being a thing way before Kasumi, we see Kasumi use a variation of the technique and like, if they wanted to show that Kasumi invented Tenha Kossatsu, why the hell would they have him use a variant and not just the original thing (it's not just a different name, it has a whole additional step)? If this scene didn't exist then maybe I'd agree with you.
I'm whatever on Kasumi knowing Nanto or not.
Them being equal doesn't mean that they must know the same shit, the statement is strictly about strength
Silvervigilant said:
if it includes the other successors too he saw thei lives as well. and yeah in the OG manga they only mention Shuken, that's why i'm arguing that it was retconned
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no, the guidebook says that other lives ARE CONTAINED but Ken only EXPERIENCED Shuken's, which is coincidentally what's also stated 2 times in the manga itself
 
FoxySonicMaster108 said:
Ken only has the Post Bind and Post Shu call keys cuz he didn't unlock Muso Tensei until around post Souther battle.
Click to expand...
I’m fine with a “pre-MT” and “Post MT” key for Ken. I’d separate HNK1 and 2 in different keys because there is a 10 year gap between the two and Ken is stated to have gotten stronger, given the timeframe, it should be a very significant difference
 
Twellas said:
Raoh's statement quite literally means that the stance and Tenha Kossatsu are one and the same, he calls the stance "the hidden secret technique", the translation for the stance's name is "stance of celestial destruction" and the beam-shooting is called "EXECUTION of celestial destruction", saying that the stance could exist by itself without the tenha kassatsu part is ridiculous, why would they have a stance that does literally nothing as an hidden secret technique?
Click to expand...
The stance of Ken and the staute could be different tho, one is called the Tenha No Kamae, the other is simply called Tenha stance. Also the statue and Kenshiro's pose are somewhat different from each other.
Twellas said:
yeah but it looks nothing like Ken's, it also doesn't come from the stance, soooo?
Click to expand...
That doesn't mean it's not a different version of the same attack tho
Twellas said:
Them being equal doesn't mean that they must know the same shit, the statement is strictly about strength
Click to expand...
So they will only know the martial arts that only themselves saw?
Twellas said:
no, the guidebook says that other lives ARE CONTAINED but Ken only EXPERIENCED Shuken's, which is coincidentally what's also stated 2 times in the manga itself
Click to expand...
I still think that it could mean Ken experienced the lives of the others including Shuken, but you interpretation is valid as well. So Ken will not have summoning and Kasumi will not get Enhanced Resistance to Pressure Points? Since both of these abillities come specifically from their respective rituals.
 
Twellas said:
I’m fine with a “pre-MT” and “Post MT” key for Ken. I’d separate HNK1 and 2 in different keys because there is a 10 year gap between the two and Ken is stated to have gotten stronger, given the timeframe, it should be a very significant difference
Click to expand...
I think the current keys for Ken are pretty solid.
 
Why does Kenshiro have electricity manipulation? Shrugging an electric fence is a feat of resistance, not Manipulation.
 
Stefano4444 said:
So what its the consensus about Kenshiro having Sonkaken and Tento?
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As Twellas said, there's no proof Kenshiro got the same ritual and therefore no proof he got Sonka Ken.

Tento needs a specific gene called the "God factor" to be used.

For the moment, please attribute each successor with the Martial Arts exclusive to each setting, which means no Gento for KK or Sonkaken for Kenshiro, unless otherwise proven.
 
Also, I see that Sonkaken is mentioned Twice in Ken's profile. The Profil isn't exactly readable.
I'd suggest using the following order for Texts to be more coherent.
He's a Master of:
  • Hokuto Shinken
  • Hokuto Ryuken
  • Nanto Seiken
etc
This would be way less confusing and easier on the eyes.
 
Silvervigilant said:
The stance of Ken and the staute could be different tho, one is called the Tenha No Kamae, the other is simply called Tenha stance. Also the statue and Kenshiro's pose are somewhat different from each other.
Click to expand...
they're the same pose, come on now
Silvervigilant said:
That doesn't mean it's not a different version of the same attack tho
Click to expand...
if it being COMPLETELY different aside from the name doesn't mean that it's "a different version" then what does?
Silvervigilant said:
So they will only know the martial arts that only themselves saw?
Click to expand...
for now the cross-scaling between Kasumi and Ken is not clear enough to have them share martial arts.
As I said, I'm whatever on Kasumi knowing nanto, nanto and hokuto have been competing for ages and given how Kasumi spent most of his training traveling around the world fighting all kinds of martial artists it's highly unlikely that he wouldn't have met a nanto practitioner. He also states that he mastered "martial arts" as a whole, so there's that. The problem with Ken knowing the branch techniques is that they were pretty much extinguished by Kasumi, so if he didn't pass them himself, nobody could have learned them.
Silvervigilant said:
I still think that it could mean Ken experienced the lives of the others including Shuken, but you interpretation is valid as well. So Ken will not have summoning and Kasumi will not get Enhanced Resistance to Pressure Points? Since both of these abillities come specifically from their respective rituals.
Click to expand...
Kasumi doesn't really have summoning, it's explained in Revive that Kasumi literally absorbed the power of the goddess/statue during the initiation ritual, that's just his aura doing that. Ken doesn't just have Enhanced Resistance, he basically has immunity to pps and no, Kasumi wouldn't have it
 
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Like I've said before:
Eseseso said:
However, we could look at this potential calc for the Goten Sho with a 2000m cloud thickness (and its high-end with an 8000m cloud thickness). We can use the same math but with your timeframe(s) for the Goten Sho of 1/34.3 seconds and 1/220 seconds. The split is easy to calc based on the ratio for our current Goten Sho calc.

I even calced the given Low End and High End of the Goten Sho calc in the link above but with speeds of 1/34.3 seconds and 1/220 seconds, and these are the results:

2000m thickness, 1/34.3 seconds: About 11.03 teratons (Country Level) for just the hole, 81.437 teratons (Country Level+) including the split, putting 100% BoS Ken at 271.46 teratons (Large Country Level)

2000m thickness, 1/220 seconds: About 453.813 teratons (Just above baseline Large Country Level+) for just the hole, 3.35 petatons (Continent Level+) including the split, putting 100% BoS Ken at 11.167 petatons (Multi-Continent Level)

8000m thickness, 1/34.3 seconds: About 509 teratons (Large Country Level+) for just the hole, 3.75767 petatons (Continent Level+) including the split, putting 100% BoS Ken at 12.52556 petatons (Multi-Continent level)

8000m thickness, 1/220 seconds: About 20.939775 petatons (Multi-Continent Level) for just the hole, 154.588 petatons (Still Multi-Continent Level) including the split, putting 100% BoS Ken at 515.293 petatons (Still Multi-Continent level)

So if either the 2000m cloud thickness with 1/220 second timeframe (3.35 petatons) and/or the 8000m cloud thickness with 1/34.3 second timeframe (3.7577 petatons) are accepted, then BoS Ken would likely upscale to Baseline High 6-A (4.435 petatons) due to being leagues above the zero-energy and near-death Raoh that did this feat, and neither multiplier for upscaling to Baseline High 6-A is that high (Only 1.324x for the smaller one and 1.18x for the higher one). Thus, for both cases, 100% BoS Ken would actually be 14.783 petatons (Multi-Continent Level)

If the highest one is somehow accepted (even though I doubt it)...It'll more or less replace the Kaioh statement as the main source of scaling.
Click to expand...

Also, we should look at these following DA calcs:

Support calc boosting Kaioh's casual cloud feat to High 6-C+: https://www.deviantart.com/kirito352/art/Kaioh-s-Matoki-aura-Hokuto-no-Ken-927772217

2 new ends for Soryu Tenra calc (one is Low 6-B while the other is High 6-B): https://www.deviantart.com/kirito352/art/Soryu-Tenra-s-power-Hokuto-no-Ken-945786011

Calc for Jagi's nuke: https://www.deviantart.com/kirito352/art/Jagi-survives-a-nuke-redone-Hokuto-no-Ken-914829391
 
none of that stuff is getting accepted, I already know, there's no point in waiting until they are, so let's just talk ap
 
Twellas said:
none of that stuff is getting accepted, I already know, there's no point in waiting until they are, so let's just talk ap
Click to expand...
Where they have been rejected before? If not then we can simply but them in a blog and let calc experts evaluate them.

Still for the most part the only feat worth mentioning would be Jagi's nuke as it could upgade the Country level+ characters, which would only affect a small portion of the rest since the rest downscale to Kaioh.
 
Stefano4444 said:
Where they have been rejected before? If not then we can simply but them in a blog and let calc experts evaluate them.
Click to expand...
Kirito's calc for Kaioh's feat is barely above the one we have, it's not even worth going through the hassle of having it evaluated tbh
the Soryu Tenha ones were already rejected iirc
the Jagi one there's just no way it gets accepted.
Honestly the best thing to do is try to have the Toki Movie version of the nuke calculated
 
OK guys, can we at least address the HNK fodder getting SoL and Country level tiering? Like why is Ein SoL and Small country level? Also, why is sick Toki multi continent level again?

I've talked about this on Discord with Twellas before but Kaioh doesn't scale to full power Kenshiro (post seals), he was amped by his mother's tomb, he described it as "bathing in the essence of Evil itself" and we know that Evil is the essence of Hokuto Ryuken.

We also have no conformation that Kenshiro went 100% in this fight and there's also the fact that Hokuto Ryuken doesn't have Tenryu Kokyu Ho or anything similar as far as we are apprised.
 
Matthew55 said:
I've talked about this on Discord with Twellas before but Kaioh doesn't scale to full power Kenshiro (post seals), he was amped by his mother's tomb, he described it as "bathing in the essence of Evil itself" and we know that Evil is the essence of Hokuto Ryuken.
Click to expand...
on this note, Hyoh notes that even just the casual, 30%, pre-seals Ken he was fighting would be fully capable of pulling up to Kaioh and killing him if he wanted to, that would realistically include Kaioh's helmetless form given that Hyoh should know about it
 
Matthew55 said:
OK guys, can we at least address the HNK fodder getting SoL and Country level tiering? Like why is Ein SoL and Small country level? Also, why is sick Toki multi continent level again?

I've talked about this on Discord with Twellas before but Kaioh doesn't scale to full power Kenshiro (post seals), he was amped by his mother's tomb, he described it as "bathing in the essence of Evil itself" and we know that Evil is the essence of Hokuto Ryuken.

We also have no conformation that Kenshiro went 100% in this fight and there's also the fact that Hokuto Ryuken doesn't have Tenryu Kokyu Ho or anything similar as far as we are apprised.
Click to expand...
I did a FOTNS scaling doc sometime ago where most of us agreed, but i think you guys should analyze and correct it if necessesary, the value for each key right now is like this:

Beginning of Series 30% Ken: 1.3453015 teratons of TNT (Small Country level) (Scales above Jagi)
Beginning of Series 100% Ken: 4.48433833 teratons of TNT (Small Country level+).
Post-Toki’s Bind 30% Ken: 76.47 petatons (Multi-Continent level) (Became much stronger than before)
Post-Toki’s Bind 100% Ken: 254.9 petatons (Multi-Continent level)
Post-Shu's Call 30% Ken: 254.9 petatons (Multi-Continent level)
Post-Shu's Call 100% Ken: 849.677 petatons (Multi-Continent level)
Post-Timeskip 30% Ken: 849.677 petatons (Multi-Continent level)
Post-Timeskip 100% Ken: 2.832 exatons (Multi-Continent level)
Post-Awakening 30% Ken: 9.44 exatons (Multi-Continent level) (We know Ken's boost was at least 3.33x due to him being superior to matouki Hyoh [who is equal if not stronger than Kaioh] while at 30%, while before awakening his potential, Kaioh was superior to his 100% form)
Post-Awakening 100% Ken: 31.4695 exatons (Moon Level)
Seals Lifted 30% Ken: at least 31.4695 exatons likely higher (Moon Level) (Became stronger than his previous self)
Seals Lifted 100% Ken: 104.898395 exatons (Moon Level)

I'm not that knowledgeable on the series scaling so i'll let up to you guys decide this.
 
now that I think of it, Ken shouldn't even get the amp from the ritual if we're going with the idea that his and Kasumi's were different, because it's never even implied that Ken got stronger really, meanwhile Kasumi is.
 
Silvervigilant said:
Post-Toki’s Bind 30% Ken: 76.47 petatons (Multi-Continent level) (Became much stronger than before)
Post-Toki’s Bind 100% Ken: 254.9 petatons (Multi-Continent level)
Post-Shu's Call 30% Ken: 254.9 petatons (Multi-Continent level)
Post-Shu's Call 100% Ken: 849.677 petatons (Multi-Continent level)
Post-Timeskip 30% Ken: 849.677 petatons (Multi-Continent level)
Post-Timeskip 100% Ken: 2.832 exatons (Multi-Continent level)
Post-Awakening 30% Ken: 9.44 exatons (Multi-Continent level) (We know Ken's boost was at least 3.33x due to him being superior to matouki Hyoh [who is equal if not stronger than Kaioh] while at 30%, while before awakening his potential, Kaioh was superior to his 100% form)
Post-Awakening 100% Ken: 31.4695 exatons (Moon Level)
Seals Lifted 30% Ken: at least 31.4695 exatons likely higher (Moon Level) (Became stronger than his previous self)
Seals Lifted 100% Ken: 104.898395 exatons (Moon Level)
Click to expand...
you can't backscale THAT much from the Kaioh staement, there's just no way Ken midway through HNK scales anywhere near Kaioh. We should only use the Goten Sho and Jagi's nuke feat for the HNK1 characters, which is why I think it's so important to calc the "new" version of Jagi's feat and why I've asked some people to help me tweak my Goten sho calc.
 
like, to give you an idea over how much Ken improves in even short amounts of time, Ken in chapter 25 gets badly beat up by Devil Rebirth and is forced to go 100% against him, by chapter 35 he's equal to Rei while at 30%, Rei is significantly stronger than Rofu who could literally no-sell attacks from a rage amped Rema, who AS A CHILD was stronger and faster than Devil Rebirth. The 10 chapters could not have taken more than like 1 week in-verse
 
Silvervigilant said:
Hyoh was excited to make Kenshiro lift his seals
Click to expand...
doesn't mean it makes him stronger necessarily
Silvervigilant said:
how strong he would become
Click to expand...
ok yeah this kinda does, I forgot this one
Silvervigilant said:
The Nyoninzo is able to give strength to others
Click to expand...
no evidence it gave Ken power the same way it did Kasumi
Silvervigilant said:
fighting ki entered in his body,
Click to expand...
it's his own ki, which got released beforehand for some reason, it's not external ki
 
Twellas said:
now that I think of it, Ken shouldn't even get the amp from the ritual if we're going with the idea that his and Kasumi's were different, because it's never even implied that Ken got stronger really, meanwhile Kasumi is.
Click to expand...
I think Kaioh implied so.
 
Silvervigilant said:
I did a FOTNS scaling doc sometime ago where most of us agreed, but i think you guys should analyze and correct it if necessesary, the value for each key right now is like this:

Beginning of Series 30% Ken: 1.3453015 teratons of TNT (Small Country level) (Scales above Jagi)
Beginning of Series 100% Ken: 4.48433833 teratons of TNT (Small Country level+).
Post-Toki’s Bind 30% Ken: 76.47 petatons (Multi-Continent level) (Became much stronger than before)
Post-Toki’s Bind 100% Ken: 254.9 petatons (Multi-Continent level)
Post-Shu's Call 30% Ken: 254.9 petatons (Multi-Continent level)
Post-Shu's Call 100% Ken: 849.677 petatons (Multi-Continent level)
Post-Timeskip 30% Ken: 849.677 petatons (Multi-Continent level)
Post-Timeskip 100% Ken: 2.832 exatons (Multi-Continent level)
Post-Awakening 30% Ken: 9.44 exatons (Multi-Continent level) (We know Ken's boost was at least 3.33x due to him being superior to matouki Hyoh [who is equal if not stronger than Kaioh] while at 30%, while before awakening his potential, Kaioh was superior to his 100% form)
Post-Awakening 100% Ken: 31.4695 exatons (Moon Level)
Seals Lifted 30% Ken: at least 31.4695 exatons likely higher (Moon Level) (Became stronger than his previous self)
Seals Lifted 100% Ken: 104.898395 exatons (Moon Level)

I'm not that knowledgeable on the series scaling so i'll let up to you guys decide this.
Click to expand...
I respectfully disagree with Souther's placing. He's not equal or that comparable to 100 Ken, if you go by Viz translation he says "I was no match for the Successor of Hokuto Shinken" not to mention base Ken adapted to him and was Blitzing him.

I also don't understand how Souther is equal to Falco who's somehow just Souther Arc Ken?
 
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