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Fist Of The North Star Revision Part 1 (P&A)

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Anyway, at this point we probably list 99% of all powers/abilities in the verse, i think we can update Kenshiro's P&A, if something was missed it can be add later.

Just tell me who should i ask for permission to make the change, so that we can return the discussion back to AP/Speed scaling.
 
Stefano4444 said:
Anyway, at this point we probably list 99% of all powers/abilities in the verse, i think we can update Kenshiro's P&A, if something was missed it can be add later.

Just tell me who should i ask for permission to make the change, so that we can return the discussion back to AP/Speed scaling.
Click to expand...
Lastly, I will add Simeon possessing the General in the first Chapter.

 
Stefano4444 said:
Anyway, at this point we probably list 99% of all powers/abilities in the verse, i think we can update Kenshiro's P&A, if something was missed it can be add later.

Just tell me who should i ask for permission to make the change, so that we can return the discussion back to AP/Speed scaling.
Click to expand...
maybe you should ask Jasonsith? I don't really know ngl
 
Stefano4444 said:
Anyway, at this point we probably list 99% of all powers/abilities in the verse, i think we can update Kenshiro's P&A, if something was missed it can be add later.

Just tell me who should i ask for permission to make the change, so that we can return the discussion back to AP/Speed scaling.
Click to expand...
I don't think you have to ask, I mean it's not like the page is locked, and all of us (plus Ant) agree to all the changes
 
What are the conclusions here so far, and what currently needs to be done here?
 
Antvasima said:
What are the conclusions here so far, and what currently needs to be done here?
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Basically i completed the P&A Blog for the main Martial Arts of FOTNS's series + the Standard Abilities/Resistances that characters should have in general.

I apologize in advance if you find any grammatic errors, my wording its far from perfect.

I only wait for permission to update Kenshiro's profile, after that we can finally continue the discussion for AP/Speed Scaling.
 
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Well, as long as the consensus of the other members here finds your suggestions acceptable, I also think that it is fine to apply.
 
For me is the same, either here or in a new CRT, but i wouldn't mind if we make a new thread all focus to scaling.

Just one thing, we agreed to add new keys for Kenshiro (Beginning of Series | Post-Toki’s Bind | Post-Shu's Call | Post-Timeskip | Post-Awakening | Seals Lifted).

Now even if we have yet to finish the AP/Speed discussion, should we still add them in his profile or its better wait?
 
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Stefano4444 said:
For me is the same, either we can continue here or make a new CRT, but i wouldn't mind if we make a new thread all focus to scaling.

Just one thing, we agreed to add new keys for Kenshiro (Beginning of Series | Post-Toki’s Bind | Post-Shu's Call | Post-Timeskip | Post-Awakening | Seals Lifted).

Now even if we have yet to finish the AP/Speed discussion, should we still add them in his profile or its better wait?
Click to expand...
I believe it would be better to wait for after discussion, so that all the keys have their relevant stats.
 
Silvervigilant said:
I think Ken and Kasumi's profile should specify that they are a Master of Hokuto Shinken, Ryuken, Sonkaken, and Sokaken, Master of Nanto Seiken, Gento Koken, Kyokujuji Seiken, Seito Gekken, and Tento Seiken, Mastery over Keiraku Hiko, Tōki user, Tōki no Aura and Tōshin no Aura user. I also think their resistances should be in their profiles too.
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KK is the only guy with Sonkaken mastery and Tento can't be used by anyone without the God factor (mutation).
 
Matthew55 said:
KK is the only guy with Sonkaken mastery and Tento can't be used by anyone without the God factor (mutation).
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Hokuto Shinken's very nature is incorporating other fighting styles into his own, not to mention the fact that Ken did the initiation ritual, and saw the lives of previous successors such as Kasumi, so he should have it too. Tento is martial art so it can be copied by a Hokuto Master iirc Van was a able to used it despite not having the god factor, but they should not have the Powers that comes from their biology only the Abillities that come from their martial art.
 
Silvervigilant said:
Hokuto Shinken's very nature is incorporating other fighting styles into his own, not to mention the fact that Ken did the initiation ritual, and saw the lives of previous successors such as Kasumi, so he should have it too. Tento is martial art so it can be copied by a Hokuto Master iirc Van was a able to used it despite not having the god factor, but they should not have the Powers that comes from their biology only the Abillities that come from their martial art.
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Van used a special genetically modified pill, if he could use it without it he wouldn't use it. Bro KK doesn't have Tento.
 
Matthew55 said:
Van used a special genetically modified pill, if he could use it without it he wouldn't use it. Bro KK doesn't have Tento.
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That's true, i forgot about that, i still do not know why a Hokuto master wouldn't be able to copy some of Tento's basic techniques such as the Tento Kogai Sho. But let's what see what @Eseseso and @Twellas have to say about that. Kasumi and Ken should absolutely have Sonkaken tho.
 
Silvervigilant said:
That's true, i forgot about that, i still do not know why a Hokuto master wouldn't be able to copy some of Tento's basic techniques such as the Tento Kogai Sho. But let's what see what @Eseseso and @Twellas have to say about that. Kasumi and Ken should absolutely have Sonkaken tho.
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I mean, I don't see why he wouldn't be able to copy it, I mean we currently assume Ken can even copy Hokuto Ryuken, but I'll wait to see what @Twellas thinks, since he probably knows more about this than I do.
 
Silvervigilant said:
Hokuto Shinken's very nature is incorporating other fighting styles into his own, not to mention the fact that Ken did the initiation ritual, and saw the lives of previous successors such as Kasumi, so he should have it too. Tento is martial art so it can be copied by a Hokuto Master iirc Van was a able to used it despite not having the god factor, but they should not have the Powers that comes from their biology only the Abillities that come from their martial art.
Click to expand...
we don't know if Kasumi passed down his knowledge to Ryuken. Ken only saw the founder's life, as is explicitely stated on panel, given the fact that Kasumi and Ken used two completely different statues to go through the ritual, there's no need nor evidence of this being retconned, so we can't assume he knows the Branch techniques.

As for Tento, given how it requires a genetic basis we can't assume that Kasumi would know how to use its techniques aside from maybe the immortality one, given that it's just a pressure point.
 
Also, I don't agree with Ken having post-bind and post-shu keys to his profile, the dude just gets stronger after every single fight he's in, he's literallly stated to get "infinitely stronger" after fighting strong opponents and it's even implied that he gets stronger just by meeting people in general, if we made keys for every time Ken gets visibly stronger we'd have like, 15 different versions with the only difference being "he's stronger than before", given how there isn't really an AP jump in-between these versions I'd just ditch them and have something like Pre-HNK (up to his loss to Shin), HNK1 (him right after he beat Raoh) and HNK2 (end of HNK2/ novel).
 
Also, I realized something, in the toki movie, we see the nukes go off and they move/disperse a huge amount of clouds around the fireball itself, I think this would be worth calculating and incorporating into Jagi's nuke calc. I say this because the movie's nukes seem to be larger and, given how it's a movie and not a still frame, we know for a fact that they've reached their maximum extension, unlike the ones shown in the manga.
Now, I don't know how this cloud thing would change/impact the calc, but I felt like it was worth bringing up, it looks like the shockwave is moving the clouds or something like that, but I wouldn't know
 
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Twellas said:
Also, I realized something, in the toki movie, we see the nukes go off and they move/disperse a huge amount of clouds around the fireball itself, I think this would be worth calculating and incorporating into Jagi's nuke calc. I say this because the movie's nukes seem to be larger and, given how it's a movie and not a still frame, we know for a fact that they've reached their maximum extension, unlike the ones shown in the manga.
Now, I don't know how this cloud thing would change/impact the calc, but I felt like it was worth bringing up
Click to expand...
Is this canon?

But yeah, the power of the cloud split should be calced and then stack on top of the nuke calc.

Speaking of, on DA one person estimated the # of nukes, used the calc that Kaioh scales to of the bombardment vaporizing the oceans, and divided by the # of nukes to get the final result (it's like just above Baseline 6-A)
 
Eseseso said:
Is this canon?
Click to expand...
the movie is made by Hara and Horie's own animation studio. Horie stated that by watching the Raoh movie (which is in continuity with the Raoh one) you get to see what Raoh was feeling during the main manga, which heavily implies it to be canon. The Yuria movie, which again is in continuity with the Toki one, is stated to be in continuity with the Rei Gaiden, which is in turn written and supervised by Hara and stated by him to be "essential reading" in order to understand the story. Horie places the movie on the same level of relevance and canonicity as Souten no Ken, which is unanimously considered to be canon since it's made by the same people as the origina, and states that they "draw faitfully" from the manga.
Eseseso said:
Speaking of, on DA one person estimated the # of nukes, used the calc that Kaioh scales to of the bombardment vaporizing the oceans, and divided by the # of nukes to get the final result (it's like just above Baseline 6-A)
Click to expand...
yeah, I know, but that's based off of the Jagi Gaiden scene iirc. If this Toki Movie version gets calc'd and is also 6-A then sure, it'd be consistent
 
Twellas said:
Also, I realized something, in the toki movie, we see the nukes go off and they move/disperse a huge amount of clouds around the fireball itself, I think this would be worth calculating and incorporating into Jagi's nuke calc. I say this because the movie's nukes seem to be larger and, given how it's a movie and not a still frame, we know for a fact that they've reached their maximum extension, unlike the ones shown in the manga.
Now, I don't know how this cloud thing would change/impact the calc, but I felt like it was worth bringing up, it looks like the shockwave is moving the clouds or something like that, but I wouldn't know
Click to expand...
I'd make the calc myself if I knew how, I still don't understand how nuke calcs work ngl, and I wouldn't know how to calc the clouds' movement
 
Twellas said:
the movie is made by Hara and Horie's own animation studio. Horie stated that by watching the Raoh movie (which is in continuity with the Raoh one) you get to see what Raoh was feeling during the main manga, which heavily implies it to be canon. The Yuria movie, which again is in continuity with the Toki one, is stated to be in continuity with the Rei Gaiden, which is in turn written and supervised by Hara and stated by him to be "essential reading" in order to understand the story. Horie places the movie on the same level of relevance and canonicity as Souten no Ken, which is unanimously considered to be canon since it's made by the same people as the origina, and states that they "draw faitfully" from the manga.
Click to expand...
So is the "Tales of the Dark King" OVA also canon?
Twellas said:
yeah, I know, but that's based off of the Jagi Gaiden scene iirc. If this Toki Movie version gets calc'd and is also 6-A then sure, it'd be consistent
Click to expand...
For those curious, the calc can be found here.

Also, he redid his Soryu Tenra calc, with the Low-End being just below Low 6-B+ and the high-end being High 6-B

He also did his own version of Kaioh casually creating clouds with his Matoki no Aura, and his high end (which uses the same cloud thickness as our current calc) is 564.268 gigatons, or just enough to be High 6-C+
 
Twellas said:
we don't know if Kasumi passed down his knowledge to Ryuken. Ken only saw the founder's life, as is explicitely stated on panel, given the fact that Kasumi and Ken used two completely different statues to go through the ritual, there's no need nor evidence of this being retconned, so we can't assume he knows the Branch techniques.
Click to expand...
Kasumi invented the Tenha Kassatsu based on what he learned from Hokuto Sonkaken, and Kenshiro knows this technique, so Kasumi definitively passed down his knowledge and since Hokuto incoportates other fighting styles into their own, other Hokuto branches have been assimilated into Hokuto Shinken. To quote yourself "due to the way Hokuto works, the most proficient Hokuto users, such as Ken (in particular) and Kasumi, should have access to every other martial art mentioned in this blog, this is because Hokuto allows the user to master any martial art after seeing it once and incorporating it into their fighting style, and since the users witnessed most if not all of the martial arts mentioned here, they would have access to all these abilities." Also about the ritual it was retconned into being the same.
Twellas said:
As for Tento, given how it requires a genetic basis we can't assume that Kasumi would know how to use its techniques aside from maybe the immortality one, given that it's just a pressure point.
Click to expand...
Alright.
 
Eseseso said:
So is the "Tales of the Dark King" OVA also canon?
Click to expand...
if it's the Raoh gaiden then yes
Silvervigilant said:
Kasumi invented the Tenha Kassatsu based on what he learned from Hokuto Sonkaken, and Kenshiro knows this technique, so Kasumi definitively passed down his knowledge and since Hokuto incoportates other fighting styles into their own, other Hokuto branches have been assimilated into Hokuto Shinken
Click to expand...
well no, because that's a completely different technique. We know Tenha Kossatsu as we have seen it in the souther fight already existed before Kasumi "invented it" because of this scene. What Kasumi calls "Tenha Kossatsu" has nothing to do with what ken uses, he literally just uses it as a finger-gun (in the scan you sent he says "it focusses fighting aura into A finger", which is obviously not how it works in the og), which Ken never did. Kasumi also never uses Ken's version of Tenha Kossatsu, he has his own, called Tenha Go Kassatsu which is literally just a more powerful Tenha Kossatsu that, again, Ken never used.
Silvervigilant said:
To quote yourself "due to the way Hokuto works, the most proficient Hokuto users, such as Ken (in particular) and Kasumi, should have access to every other martial art mentioned in this blog, this is because Hokuto allows the user to master any martial art after seeing it once and incorporating it into their fighting style, and since the users witnessed most if not all of the martial arts mentioned here, they would have access to all these abilities."
Click to expand...
"since the users witnessed most if not all of the martial arts mentioned here" Ken hasn't witnessed the branch techniques. I also hadn't added them when I wrote that, and even if I did, I was wrong
Silvervigilant said:
Also about the ritual it was retconned into being the same.
Click to expand...
that doesn't support the retcon idea at all lmao, it says that "the inscription INCLUDES other successors" but we are told expressly by both the guide itself, Ken and Hyoh that he only actually experienced Shuken's life. Also, I shouldn't have to explain why using a wiki article that has the guidebook as a source isn't reliable, it'd be like me picking stuff up from the wiki and considering it valid because it has the manga as the source.
 
Twellas said:
well no, because that's a completely different technique. We know Tenha Kossatsu as we have seen it in the souther fight already existed before Kasumi "invented it" because of this scene
Click to expand...
That's the Tenha Stance, not the Tenha Kassatsu. The tenha stance has a different finality than the Tenha Kassatsu.
Twellas said:
What Kasumi calls "Tenha Kossatsu" has nothing to do with what ken uses, he literally just uses it as a finger-gun (in the scan you sent he says "it focusses fighting aura into A finger", which is obviously not how it works in the og), which Ken never did.
Click to expand...
Kasumi literally says "This is a secret technique of Hokuto Shinken: Tenha Kassatsu" and does the exact same thing that Ken's tenha kassatsu does which is striking the opponent's pressure points without needing to touch them, the only minor diference is that Kasumi choosed to only use one finger instead of them all but the techniques still the same.
Twellas said:
Kasumi also never uses Ken's version of Tenha Kossatsu, he has his own, called Tenha Go Kassatsu which is literally just a more powerful Tenha Kossatsu that, again, Ken never used.
Click to expand...
Ken should absolutely be able to use that version Tenha Kassatsu, and Kasumi can do Ken's version as well, they are absolutely masters of the same martial art for God sake. If we start to nitpick minor differences bewteen the mangas we will end up with no scaling whatsover. things like we never saw Kasumi use the Kento Shadan or the Toshin no Aura, so he shouldn't have it, he should not have Nanto as well since we never saw him using, we also never saw Ken using Hokuto Shinhozan so shouldn't have it, or Ken and Kasumi MT are portrayed different from each other so they should not share the same abillities the same thing with their Ujo Mosho Ha, or their rituals are different so Kasumi should not have imunnity to pressure points and Ken should not have summoning. If we do this we are ignoring the fact that the WOG said they're are equals.
Twellas said:
that doesn't support the retcon idea at all lmao, it says that "the inscription INCLUDES other successors" but we are told expressly by both the guide itself, Ken and Hyoh that he only actually experienced Shuken's life. Also, I shouldn't have to explain why using a wiki article that has the guidebook as a source isn't reliable, it'd be like me picking stuff up from the wiki and considering it valid because it has the manga as the source.
Click to expand...
if it includes the other successors too he saw thei lives as well. and yeah in the OG manga they only mention Shuken, that's why i'm arguing that it was retconned
 
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