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FIRE FORCE X SOUL EATER CRT (GOD TIER REVISION): ADOLLA X KISHIN
- Thread starter Arnoldstone18
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Low 1-C still pretty based
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BUMPP
PrinceofPein
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Since I have some free time, let me address the OP once and for all, and this will be my only post on this matter since I don't like to drag things on unnecessarily till the oppositions is tired and I am not interested in such scenario, I will post this and call Staffs to look over the OP and this post.
It is a monologue from four-two saying what he felt in adolla when he entered it
here is a video with the time stamp(1:35) of the relevant part
So No adolla was not said to encompass the concepts of this, those are lies
Adolla was said to be these things or these are felt in adolla
To address the higher dimensions statement, we have a rule for that which is from the FAQ
Also you claim "adolla governs higher dimensional axes in reality, I will like to see the scan
How can adolla be beyond imagination when you claim it is a world or all things human imagines, which is what it is, adolla is humanity thoughts. This is ignoring the fact that you are being dishonest here, what Shinra referred to as "beyond imagination" is not Adolla but rather earth 250 years ago, a earth that is different from their own, a earth that looks life like.
Now, I think Maitreya tried to make a better argument for Adolla, so I will be addressing him
Also we have a description for being able to manipulate Pi, it is called Mathematics manip
Also like your scan says, what they are asked to imagine is the destruction of earth and humanity, you dont need higher dimensions for that.
Adolla was not referred to as a "world beyond imagination" but rather shinra when he went to the past and saw earth from 250 years ago and was explaining it to Arthur how the world looks like.
Also, to gain low 1-C from R>F, you need to view entire timelines as fiction
TLDR of my reply to the OP: Nothing was ever said to "encompass the concept of higher dimensions, mathematics e.t.c." those are head canons. And it is dishonest that you removed Benimaru description of higher dimension and how to get to adolla, which is well a funny explanation Since it kind of shoots down your whole explanation of higher infinities, R>F or spatial axes, if Adolla is a place that you can get to by opening chakra points in your body and believing. You can claim that Benimaru is not knowledgeable on it, but he thinks otherwise and also what he said actually works since shinra could access adolla that way. Here is a detailed explanation of what it is for any staff wondering, that is enough argument against the OP.
You keep saying "this concepts" but never once did ohkubo referred to them as "concept of" so stop using language to inflate this,
It is a monologue from four-two saying what he felt in adolla when he entered it
here is a video with the time stamp(1:35) of the relevant part
So No adolla was not said to encompass the concepts of this, those are lies
Adolla was said to be these things or these are felt in adolla
Dishonest way to inflate the situation, I already explained above what it is.
Adolla encompasses all of these concepts above within itself and many more. These concepts housed within Adolla are entirely independent from the reality they govern because Adolla is a higher dimension (“Ko Jigen - 高次元") that transcends said reality and all the concepts manifested within it.
To address the higher dimensions statement, we have a rule for that which is from the FAQ
Tldr: if there is no established relationships of QS between the worlds, then higher dimensions like that is not valid, I will get to that below
Adolla was never said to contain concepts of mathematics, that is what it is. Please send scans to substantiate this claims.
Also you claim "adolla governs higher dimensional axes in reality, I will like to see the scan
Another claim without proof. something that was never mentioned within the story.
No it does not, it is called reality warping, Also mathematics in any work will be similar to ours and by that logic, what you need to substantiate though is this higher dimensions you keep pulling out of nowhere that was never mentioned in the works
You have failed to prove anything in your Op and low 1-C will take a lot more than this
The mental gymnastics in this is baffling.
How can adolla be beyond imagination when you claim it is a world or all things human imagines, which is what it is, adolla is humanity thoughts. This is ignoring the fact that you are being dishonest here, what Shinra referred to as "beyond imagination" is not Adolla but rather earth 250 years ago, a earth that is different from their own, a earth that looks life like.
Now, I think Maitreya tried to make a better argument for Adolla, so I will be addressing him
Like I said up above, adolla is never stated to contain "concepts of higher dimensions and mathematics" but rather what it is
Also we have a description for being able to manipulate Pi, it is called Mathematics manip
You have failed to establish that there are higher dimensiions in the verse to begin with so why all this claims you cannot substantiate?
Also like your scan says, what they are asked to imagine is the destruction of earth and humanity, you dont need higher dimensions for that.
I have to ask, do you read these scans?
Adolla was not referred to as a "world beyond imagination" but rather shinra when he went to the past and saw earth from 250 years ago and was explaining it to Arthur how the world looks like.
- Your scan that is suppose to say "which transcends human comprehension" only talked about the solving of Pi, so please exchange it out for the correct scan
- Your scan that is supposed to proof many more statements like that exists across the series only talked about giovanni saying humanity will attain higher dimension if they are all wiped out.
These means nothing to low 1-C, Not that it matters but my thoughts on it are; the touching the flames part is a verse mechanic those with adolla burst uses the flames and even attacks with them. And the blindfold part is contradicted as shinra and sho before the great cataclysm are just fine inside adolla without blindfolds and haumea is also a pillar so it is not cause they are pillars too.
its called reality warping
This is very interesting and if it can be proven correctly would actually grant adolla R>F over 3-D, but you are taking this out of context. Adolla is humanity thoughts so it is actually the other way around, your thoughts are fiction to you and not the other way around. And yes Adolla alters the story of the world because humanity thoughts is what drives adolla and adolla structures the world as humans wish and adolla creates character to help drives that idea. So there is no R>F here.
Also, to gain low 1-C from R>F, you need to view entire timelines as fiction
God of the whole verse, God of all creation, means nothing to tiering
The R>F part was interesting but aside that none of this remotely comes close to higher tier.
TLDR of my reply to the OP: Nothing was ever said to "encompass the concept of higher dimensions, mathematics e.t.c." those are head canons. And it is dishonest that you removed Benimaru description of higher dimension and how to get to adolla, which is well a funny explanation Since it kind of shoots down your whole explanation of higher infinities, R>F or spatial axes, if Adolla is a place that you can get to by opening chakra points in your body and believing. You can claim that Benimaru is not knowledgeable on it, but he thinks otherwise and also what he said actually works since shinra could access adolla that way. Here is a detailed explanation of what it is for any staff wondering, that is enough argument against the OP.
As far as I know, Ultima disagreed, right after I did, whether he decides to reply again or not is up to him but he did disagree, so count his vote.
Sorry I tagged you here again, but if you can check out the OP arguments given contexts and see if your stance is still the same.
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Just wanna quickly address some things said by Pain real quick.
- “never once is it said Adolla holds concepts.”
Oh and I accidentally linked a wrong link when talking about Adolla’s many statements of transcendence. Sorry there’s just so many of them. Here’s the right ones.
“The evangelist. A being which transcends our mortal comprehension.”
“The transcendence of the other world.”
Oh and Shinra saying a “world beyond imagination” was in reference to the past he saw which Adolla carries. So yeah the statement would be in reference to the Adolla plane as well since the Adolla plane holds within it the history of humanities despair as well.
Hell, Adolla shifting that “world beyond imagination” into what the verse was then is an insane feat itself since it was described as the equivalent of everyone becoming a stick figure drawing to them.
So yeah, those were the points I felt the need to address real quick.
- “never once is it said Adolla holds concepts.”
Oh and I accidentally linked a wrong link when talking about Adolla’s many statements of transcendence. Sorry there’s just so many of them. Here’s the right ones.
“The evangelist. A being which transcends our mortal comprehension.”
“The transcendence of the other world.”
Oh and Shinra saying a “world beyond imagination” was in reference to the past he saw which Adolla carries. So yeah the statement would be in reference to the Adolla plane as well since the Adolla plane holds within it the history of humanities despair as well.
Hell, Adolla shifting that “world beyond imagination” into what the verse was then is an insane feat itself since it was described as the equivalent of everyone becoming a stick figure drawing to them.
So yeah, those were the points I felt the need to address real quick.
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Adolla is X; therefore, they saw X.
Adolla is a collection of concepts; therefore, they saw a collection of concepts.
It's your burden to prove why those aren't concepts.
I am simply stating things as they are. So i do not appreciate you calling it dishonest.
Adolla has been stated to be a higher dimension multiple times, by the scientist Dr. Giovanni, even by one of those who have felt its transcendence while linking to it. So with that, it can be inferred that it's a higher dimension. It's as simple as that.
The level of transcendence is simply being discussed in this thread.
The rest of your responses after this were me proving the concepts from Adolla manifest in Reality after many great cataclyms. So Adolla is a transcendent world beyond those manifested concepts within the reality it transcends.
A world's level of transcendence has nothing to do with what the world is.
Sure, address him with the same old, recycled arguments.
He hasn't responded, and the OP has undergone a drastic change, so no.
Your opinions are not context. He has already read the OP.
So yeah, Adolla is a higher dimension whose level of transcendence is beyond human imagination. The concepts it embodies are manifested in the reality it transcends, meaning its nature must transcend the manifestation of these concepts if it is to remain beyond reality.
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Bumpppppppppppppppppppppp
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Correction #1: Humanity WAS IN THE PROCESS of merging with Adolla. The White Clad was still making preparations and stuff.
Correction #2: Adolla was depicted to be not a fictional world, like you think it is. But a REAL world that is transcendent to their universe. Here, Joker and Burns are forcefully pulled into Adolla for a short time, via Adolla Link.
Cementing my claim on the REALNESS of Adolla: Joker outright states that it is real. Then refers to it as a higher plane.
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It would grant him low 1-C AP.
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That’s not a correction, the sun and irl version of the world was the original Earth. It had a cataclysm as well.
Wikisource
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It's been about a year since I read FF so there might be a bias in my memory.
Anyway
First I don't think 1A is reasonable. Mathematical feats should be evident in the verse, where "π" is the only one mentioned as far as I can remember. So I don't think aleph 2 can be used as a reason to upgrade to 1A.
For L1C, proofs are required that they actually transcend 4-dimensional structures. By fact another 4D plane can also be called a higher dimension. One example is the layered multiverse. They are essentially 4D universes on top of each other, and the 4D universes on top can be called the "higher plane".
Anyway
First I don't think 1A is reasonable. Mathematical feats should be evident in the verse, where "π" is the only one mentioned as far as I can remember. So I don't think aleph 2 can be used as a reason to upgrade to 1A.
For L1C, proofs are required that they actually transcend 4-dimensional structures. By fact another 4D plane can also be called a higher dimension. One example is the layered multiverse. They are essentially 4D universes on top of each other, and the 4D universes on top can be called the "higher plane".
Wikisource
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There are quite a few points that have been submitted and I couldn't read them all so hopefully someone can summarize.
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Simply put, for a higher dimension like Adolla’s nature to be described as beyond the manifestation of whatever humans can conceptualize or imagine which include “numbers”, “mathematics”, and “higher dimension”. Adolla has to transcend all manifestation of these concepts which is only shown to be a 4-D cosmology. This makes Adolla’s transcendent nature beyond reality correspond to Low 1-C at least.
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How does that refute my point?
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All those “Ideas” already exist in the new world. From the previous cataclysm that created their sun.
Wikisource
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Concepts in FF don't really govern reality, instead they govern human perception, which is shown in the fact that Adolla is a collection of human perception and when Shinra makes the concept of death near closer to people, the essence of this is that their perception of death is changed, but the concept of "death" does not really change.
Besides, things that fall into the category of 4D and above will also become incomprehensible/unrecognizable. It is one of the common arguments in proving a higher dimension.
Georredannea15
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Low 1-A certainly doesn't work here, especially after the new standards.
As for Low 1-C, what is clearly meant here is a higher plane than what only the human mind can perceive (this only implies that it is beyond the perception of the human mind, not cosmology). But phrases like "higher plane" and "higher existence" basically require a clear context of "transcendence" or "being beyond something" in order to be a reference to dimensional transcendence, in short I don't see any kind of dimensional transcendence here.(sorry man
)
In simpler terms, to be on a higher plane than the 3D people and the minds perceiving the 3rd dimension that exist in the 4 dimensional universe... In other words, if the "higher plane" here is supported by statements and contexts such as "transcendence" or "being beyond", it can be a kind of QS. And I guess that would be 4-D...
As for Low 1-C, what is clearly meant here is a higher plane than what only the human mind can perceive (this only implies that it is beyond the perception of the human mind, not cosmology). But phrases like "higher plane" and "higher existence" basically require a clear context of "transcendence" or "being beyond something" in order to be a reference to dimensional transcendence, in short I don't see any kind of dimensional transcendence here.(sorry man
)In simpler terms, to be on a higher plane than the 3D people and the minds perceiving the 3rd dimension that exist in the 4 dimensional universe... In other words, if the "higher plane" here is supported by statements and contexts such as "transcendence" or "being beyond", it can be a kind of QS. And I guess that would be 4-D...
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??
I’m getting tired of sending the same scans about Adolla manifesting humanity’s concepts within reality over and over again.
Shinra didn’t manipulate death. He just made a God so that people would no longer despair over death rather be more intimate with it.
Edit: actually he did change death.
Space-time is a 4-D concept manipulated by Adolla. “higher dimension(s)” (at least 4-D), and “mathematics” are concepts manifested in Reality by Adolla. Meaning Humanity can conceptualize higher dimensions.
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Yes they do.
It’s specifically stated that reality itself shifts to match human perception.
Death is a fundamental concept that governs the universe, And Shinra was able to completely alter its whole nature. Concepts in Fire Force very much govern reality.
Sonoftanavast9
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That is definitely not what happened in that scene at all.
He didn't "In essence" change their perception of death and this is never stated as what happened. He changed Death itself which lead to the results shown
The idea that his powers are reliant on changing people's perceptions is not only unfounded but completely illogical seeing as how all of his powers works 100% fine at a point where EVERYONE WAS ALREADY DEAD - This alone is a pretty clear indicator that his powers of all creation aren't centered around manipulating their perceptions because he uses it not only while they are all dead (You know when theres no collective perception to manipulate) but easily resurrected all of them himself
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The perception of the human mind becomes reality. Therefore it’s beyond reality (cosmology).
the exact phrase is “higher dimension” and it’s stated to be a transcendent world beyond reality (a 4-D cosmology at least).
But here is the thing. Their minds are capable of conceptualizing higher dimension(s) hence why Adolla manifested said dimension(s) in reality (which makes sense because so far the cosmology/reality is shown to be 4-D at least). So Adolla being a higher dimension beyond anything humans can conceptualize is at least 5-D (if Humanity can only conceptualize a single higher dimension/space time continuum) or a higher Tier that needs extra proof that humanity can conceptualize things to those degrees.
Wikisource
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Yes, he revives the dead. It will count as a feat of his, what I want to say here is that the perception of human death has changed FF. The fact that Shinra created a god to make death closer shows that their perception has also changed, why do everyone say no?
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Sonoftanavast9
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Your not engaging with the actual point of the argument.
All of Shinra bansho mans powers stem from the same source being his power of "All Creation". If this power was reliant on changing human perception to enact its effects/changes to reality then he would be incapable of using it while everyone was dead but clearly that's not the case.
The god of death he created only shows itself AFTER he had already altered death and no one knew of it's existence until when it showed up (made apparent by their shock and Shinra having to explain what made to them). If Shinra altered death by having peoples perception of death changed by the advent of that god they would have to have know the god of death existed and know exactly what he was before Shinra told them/he showed up himself because they would have to have perceived him for their perception to be changed by him - This is clearly not what happened nobody knew what he was or that he even existed till Shinra started explaining & he showed up to further talk
Georredannea15
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Can I see the panel and the contexts, cos I haven't seen this
Ehhhh no? It was clearly talking about the"higher plane" not the "higher dimension".
For example, in your mind or collective consciousness, when you try to visualise and conceptualise a 4-dimensional cube or higher dimensions, you are still modelling and visualising this 4-dimensional cube and higher dimensions in the 3rd dimension.
Because this mind doesn't really perceive the higher dimensions, it just does a modelling in the 3rd dimension because it can't really conceptualise the higher dimensions in the mind... That's the situation here. (we model in the 3rd dimension to visualise higher dimensions, otherwise our mind cannot model it)
So what actually arises is still 3-dimensional. Even though people and their minds and thoughts can think of 4-dimensional things(or space-time), they still physically exist and are modelled in the 3rd dimension.
So this is still limited to 3 dimensions and the state of existence.
Even if we assume at best that it is 4-D... there is unfortunately very little context for dimensional superiority.
Edit : I'm going to sleep now. At best, I can answer tomorrow.
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Ahhh, forget it.
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Going back to the main topic, as I said, things that go beyond 3D become incomprehensible to 3D beings. An example to imagine is that I, you or anyone else are 3D being and we cannot visualize 4D. A simple way is to visualize a 3D space in your head and then draw a 4th line perpendicular to all 3 previous lines, you will see that it is impossible. The reason is very simple because it belongs to 4D and 3D beings cannot visualize it. Hence the argument that humans cannot understand them or something else is not convincing enough.
Wikisource
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Quoted from here.
Accordingly, the axes will be perpendicular to each other to create spatial dimensions. As for why the space-time continuum is 4D, time is already perpendicular to the spatial dimension. But obviously we still don't really know how time and space are linked, so the 4D, space-time simulations you see are all just guesses.
Accordingly, the axes will be perpendicular to each other to create spatial dimensions. As for why the space-time continuum is 4D, time is already perpendicular to the spatial dimension. But obviously we still don't really know how time and space are linked, so the 4D, space-time simulations you see are all just guesses.
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There’s quite a couple. However I could give you the scan that has been sent here multiple times cuz convenience.
Long story short Adolla merges with reality and manifests it’s concept within reality. The plot is centered around this too.
The Kanji used is “higher dimension”. Anything else would just be you gaslighting me into thinking I’m seeing things
This is the equivalent of saying Time is a 3-D concept because humanity uses 3-D modeling to describe it. Obviously humans can’t perceive higher dimensions and Adolla isn’t limited only to Human perception but also their understanding of what they can’t perceive like the human soul for instance.
Evidenced by the fact that Adolla’s influence extends to Time, meaning humanity understands the nature of a higher dimension even if they use 3-D mathematical models to describe it and even if they can’t literally perceive the 4th dimension. Adolla’s nature is stated to be a higher dimension that transcends human understanding. At least by what we’ve been shown it can’t be proven that humans can understand the 5th dimension and above. So Adolla’s nature corresponds to 5-D
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The manga would be more valid than the anime. That's how it's always been, sorry.
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I fail to see the refutation.
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@Qawsedf234 @Ultima_Reality
What are your conclusions based on the arguments beginning here? Is Low 1-C still acceptable?
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What are your conclusions based on the arguments beginning here? Is Low 1-C still acceptable?
FIRE FORCE X SOUL EATER CRT (GOD TIER REVISION): ADOLLA X KISHIN
Fire force will always be tier 0 in my heart
Georredannea15
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Ultima already disagreed and said his reasons. But I don't know what he thinks now.@Qawsedf234 @Ultima_Reality
What are your conclusions based on the arguments beginning here? Is Low 1-C still acceptable?
FIRE FORCE X SOUL EATER CRT (GOD TIER REVISION): ADOLLA X KISHIN
Fire force will always be tier 0 in my heart
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You never responded to my reply or are you satisfied?
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bump
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@Qawsedf234 @Ultima_Reality
What are your conclusions based on the arguments beginning here? Is Low 1-C still acceptable?
FIRE FORCE X SOUL EATER CRT (GOD TIER REVISION): ADOLLA X KISHIN
Fire force will always be tier 0 in my heart
Have any important new evidence and arguments been posted regarding this revision afterwards?
PrinceofPein
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No, just my post and the OP
So you can tag Deagon, Qawsedf, Darkgrath and Ultima
to have a look at it again
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@Qawsedf234 @Ultima_Reality
What are your conclusions based on the arguments beginning here? Is Low 1-C still acceptable?
FIRE FORCE X SOUL EATER CRT (GOD TIER REVISION): ADOLLA X KISHIN
Fire force will always be tier 0 in my heart
@Deagonx @Qawsedf234 @DarkGrath @Ultima_Reality
What do you think about this?
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