Fire Emblem Discussion thread: New Forum, New Mystery of the Emblem

[Spinoirr]

Still waiting for a fire emblem three hopes crt

 

[TheGatememer]

Thinking about it, Three Hopes really puts into perspective just how powerful even a base Byleth is.

Spoiler

At the beginning of the game, they completely stomped Shez, who was able to defeat all three houses on their own. Keep in mind this includes Hubert, who as a kid was able to fight off his father's soldiers for 3 days straight. There's also Edelgard, who is capable of defeating a Demonic Beast on her own, so that's definitely something, and Dimitri is at least on par with her.

 

[The_man_with_the_Midas_touch]

Still waiting for a fire emblem three hopes crt

Why don’t you make one yourself

 

[TheGatememer]

Spoiler: Three Hopes

It looks like Epimenides used the "Laws of Creation" to send everyone to Zaharas, which could be supporting evidence that the world was created, and sustained by his existence

 

[The_man_with_the_Midas_touch]

So I was thinking how a potential Shez Profile would work, stat wise.

for his stats would it make sense to give him three separate keys?

Prologue (Beginning of Game to 2 year time skip.) Which would scale to Town level via being comparable to characters like Edelgard, as well as being able to damage and defeat a Demonic Beast.

Post-Time Skip (Part 1). Which I presume we could scale to the three houses variants of the House Leaders.

Post-Time Skip (Part 2). Which would scale to being able to: Being able to fight on par with, and potentially kill, Byleth. In addition to being able to potentially fight against the likes of the Immaculate One,

This is how the story is separated in the Record Keeper, so it makes sense we would use it to divide his keys.


If the Epimenides thing Gatememer mentioned is legit, then Part 2 Shez can scale to whatever value that would give him.

 

[KobsterHope07]

So I was thinking how a potential Shez Profile would work, stat wise.

for his stats would it make sense to give him three separate keys?

Prologue (Beginning of Game to 2 year time skip.) Which would scale to Town level via being comparable to characters like Edelgard, as well as being able to damage and defeat a Demonic Beast.

Post-Time Skip (Part 1). Which I presume we could scale to the three houses variants of the House Leaders.

Post-Time Skip (Part 2). Which would scale to being able to: Being able to fight on par with, and potentially kill, Byleth. In addition to being able to potentially fight against the likes of the Immaculate One,

This is how the story is separated in the Record Keeper, so it makes sense we would use it to divide his keys.


If the Epimenides thing Gatememer mentioned is legit, then Part 2 Shez can scale to whatever value that would give him.

I believe. Perhaps something like this

 

[The_man_with_the_Midas_touch]

Yeah yeah, that’s pretty much what I was thinking, Stat wise.

Was thinking the P&A section can probably be expanded a bit, as Shez has like, a ton of available skills/classes they can potentially learn. I can probably help with that if needed.

 

[KobsterHope07]

Yeah yeah, that’s pretty much what I was thinking, Stat wise.

Was thinking the P&A section can probably be expanded a bit, as Shez has like, a ton of available skills/classes they can potentially learn. I can probably help with that if needed.

You can help out with the P&A. Haven’t play the game again since my Golden Deer play though and currently playing XC3 so I not sure whether I continue the profile any time soon

 

[TheGatememer]

According to Sylvain in his support with Shez, a Heroes Relic is capable of taking down hundreds or thousands of soldiers in a single blow. Thought that was pretty interesting

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Assuming all soldiers are 7-C, that's 7-B even without feats higher end feats

 

[JustSomeWeirdo]

use that for the not unleashed relics ovo

 

[TheGatememer]

After playing through some games, I think the “power of friendship” is a legitimate thing in FE. There are statements that fighting alongside allies makes you strong, and in awakening, Robin was literally able to come back to life due to their bonds. There is also an example in FEH, where Eir was unaffected by her very existence being altered due to her trust in her allies.

 

[DannyF97]

Well, this VG was a great display of Lion Supremacy. Beating Claude, avenging Edel, and killing God.

And we're not gonna stop with that!

 

[TheGatememer]

Dedue confirms in a support that he stands no chance against a Relic. So the scaling to Relics definitely needs to be removed for Non-relic users (except for maybe Byleth) considering that he is probably one of the strongest students.

 

[The_Smashor]

Dedue confirms in a support that he stands no chance against a Relic. So the scaling to Relics definitely needs to be removed for Non-relic users (except for maybe Byleth) considering that he is probably one of the strongest students.

I think that's inconsistent, though.

For example, in another support Dedue was confident in his ability to kill Shez if they ever betrayed Dimitri, despite Shez being fairly comparable to relic users (Not to mention his power being directly compared to Relics by the likes of Linhardt). Not to mention, in Azure Gleam, it was also noted that as a team Shamir and Catherine were a significant step up from Catherine on her own, plus Shamir on her own being fully capable of killing Edelgard as a plot point in Scarlet Blaze. Neither one uses a sacred weapon generally, so that dosn't really explain it either.

Relic users are certainly stronger than non-relic users, but the difference is hardly insurmountable. Not to mention the fact that defensive or support Relics are considered to be as big a boon as offensive ones.

Hell, in Three Houses you can beat a relic user despite not having access to any relics or sacred weapons yourself, and even beat the Demonic Beast the relic turns them into.

 

[TheGatememer]

I think that's inconsistent, though.

For example, in another support Dedue was confident in his ability to kill Shez if they ever betrayed Dimitri, despite Shez being fairly comparable to relic users (Not to mention his power being directly compared to Relics by the likes of Linhardt).

Dedue never stated that he could kill Shez, he just viewed them as a potential threat. Shez was the one that made the statement, and that was just an off-handed to try and gain Dedue’s trust.

Not to mention, in Azure Gleam, it was also noted that as a team Shamir and Catherine were a significant step up from Catherine on her own,

This isn’t really an anti-feat. I mean of course there is an advantage fighting alongside someone rather than alone. Shamir’s also an expert assassin, she isn’t an ordinary foot-soldier by any means.

plus Shamir on her own being fully capable of killing Edelgard as a plot point in Scarlet Blaze. Neither one uses a sacred weapon generally, so that dosn't really explain it either.

This really just seems like PIS tbh. Edelgard was also caught off guard.

Relic users are certainly stronger than non-relic users, but the difference is hardly insurmountable. Not to mention the fact that defensive or support Relics are considered to be as big a boon as offensive ones.

Don’t really understand your argument here.

Hell, in Three Houses you can beat a relic user despite not having access to any relics or sacred weapons yourself, and even beat the Demonic Beast the relic turns them into.

Miklan doesn’t have the Crest of Gautier, so he can’t unleash it’s true power. The Black Beast is basically equal to any other demonic beast.

 

[SuperKamiNappa]

Miklan doesn’t have the Crest of Gautier, so he can’t unleash it’s true power. The Black Beast is basically equal to any other demonic beast.

Not to mention Byleth already had the Sword of the Creator

 

[The_Smashor]

Another thing, Catherine's life was threatened in Azure Gleam by Gwendal, who dosn't even have a Crest or a Sacred Weapon, not to mention a Relic.

 

[TheGatememer]

With a few exceptions, scaling Non-Relic/Sacred Weapon users to Relic users is a complete no-go. Any examples of such are 99% of the time going to be PIS, or outliers. Not only would that lead to absurd, and inflated statistics (ie, High 6-A fodder soldiers), it also completely undermines the importance of Relics. For example, the Kingdom’s military power is dependent on the power of Relics. So much to the point where without them, Dimitri states that the Kingdom would collapse. Obviously there are many more examples but I don’t feel like listing them. Relics wouldn’t be held in such high regards if ordinary soldiers could stand up to them.

 

[The_Smashor]

I mean, IMO, I think the things that actually happen in the story should take priority over statements like that, and in scripted story events Relic users aren't infinitely above non-relic users.

AFAIK the only time a relic user stomps a non-relic user (Outside of nameless fodder obviously, which even non-relic users are more than capable of) in story is Nemesis' fight with Holst, and I'm pretty sure Holst scales to Relic users either way, so it's really more a showcase of Nemesis' power than the power of relics themselves.

Hell, Holst's ability to fight against Nemesis for any amount of time without dying and being able to fight Count Bergliez on even terms (A Sacred Weapon user) despite not having a crest or any special weapons himself speaks volumes.

Not to mention Count Bergliez also noted in a paralogue that Caspar had outright surpassed him despite also not having a Crest or any special weapons.

It's a major plot point that Crests and Heroes' Relics, while strong, are somewhat overrated and overvalued. Despite having almost no Heroes' Relic users on their side except Edelgard, the Empire is still able to keep the Kingdom and Alliance one the ropes despite them having relics. Hell, aside from Count Bergliez's gauntlets and the Sword of Seiros in Silver Snow, they don't even have any Sacred Weapons either (At least in Three Houses)

 

[The_Smashor]

By the way, I'm not gonna be able to talk here for a day or two because I'm getting my laptop repaired and this site is a nightmare on mobile.

Update: I'll still be able to talk tonight, but I'll be trying to get my laptop fixed tomorrow if I can.

 

[XitSign]

I've been interested in helping flesh out Heroes profiles some, and I wanted to ask: What's our current standards on Hero types?

Brave, Legendary, Mythic, Ascended, Fell...which ones should be grouped onto main profiles and which are unique instances of the character? Or is it case by case?

 

[JustSomeWeirdo]

Currently I think it's "Brave Separate, otherwise Case by Case"

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I'm inclined to agree more with RTX regarding Heroes' Relics users scaling and maybe some Sacred Weapons, but not sure about all of them. Rhea/Seiros absolutely should be an example. Also, while the "Feats > Statements" is a notable policy, quality over quantity is another one. We absolutely still need to separate god tiers from mid tiers and putting average nameless foot soldiers in the same tier as Sothis is absolutely not an option. Base case scenario for non relic users is people getting god tier scaling for like end game keys and just considered above nameless soldiers and bandits otherwise, but I'd prefer to just stick to Relic users + Byleth and Shez and like the Saints and absolute strongest members of TWSITD scaling.

 

[The_Smashor]

I'm inclined to agree more with RTX regarding Heroes' Relics users scaling and maybe some Sacred Weapons, but not sure about all of them. Rhea/Seiros absolutely should be an example. Also, while the "Feats > Statements" is a notable policy, quality over quantity is another one. We absolutely still need to separate god tiers from mid tiers and putting average nameless foot soldiers in the same tier as Sothis is absolutely not an option. Base case scenario for non relic users is people getting god tier scaling for like end game keys and just considered above nameless soldiers and bandits otherwise, but I'd prefer to just stick to Relic users + Byleth and Shez and like the Saints and absolute strongest members of TWSITD scaling.

I'm not saying we should put nameless foot soldiers on the level of Sothis.

IMO the likes of Ignatz definitely don't scale to relics, only certain people would.

It's just that if Relics and Sacred Weapons are so much superior to literally anything else in the verse, then the Empire would have gotten shitstomped by the Kingdom and Alliance since the only relic they have is being used by someone who isn't participating in most of the battles.

 

[SuperKamiNappa]

I'm not saying we should put nameless foot soldiers on the level of Sothis.

IMO the likes of Ignatz definitely don't scale to relics, only certain people would.

It's just that if Relics and Sacred Weapons are so much superior to literally anything else in the verse, then the Empire would have gotten shitstomped by the Kingdom and Alliance since the only relic they have is being used by someone who isn't participating in most of the battles.

She at least has Count Bergliz who has a sacred weapon, and Jeritza uses Rafail Gem in Hopes.

You’d think Ferdinand would at least use Ochlainn Shield as an enemy

 

[The_Smashor]

IMO, I think only the following characters should easily scale to relics (Though this is mostly off the top of my head)

• Holst (Literally fights relic users and is considered to be the strongest man in the alliance even without relics, didn't die during his fight with Nemesis)
• Shamir (Consistently considered to be a valuable partner to Catherine despite her usage of a Relic, and threatened Edelgard's life)
• Three Hopes!Byleth (Considered to be a major threat and even undefeatable by relic users, even while using just a Steel Sword)
• Jeralt (Fought on par with Shez, while not to the same extent as Byleth still considered a major threat by Relic users)
• Jeritza (Even when explicitly not carrying his Relic, a major threat to even an awakened Byleth with the Sword of the Creator)
• Caspar (His father noted that Caspar has surpassed him in a paralogue even without giving him his Sacred Weapon. Shez also did notably worse against Leopold than Caspar did in a training spar)

Also, it's worth noting that several relics are defense or utility based like the Fetters of Dromi, Aegis Shield or Rafail Gem, which puts the users of those in a weird position since there's zero reason to assume those passively buff their offense power or anything like that.

 

[JustSomeWeirdo]

Balthus should probably scale to Caspar, too

Of course he'd also scale to Holst

 

[The_Smashor]

Balthus should probably scale to Caspar, too

Yeah, I just wasn't considering him since he also uses a relic and stuff.

 

[JustSomeWeirdo]

Fair, but it could also be support for Caspar since Balthus would scale to Holst

 

[TheGatememer]

Just a few things.
Holst may not have even fought Nemesis, as he states in a support that he's no match for the Ten Elites. So he could have just fought the Elites, and lost. Not that it would change his rating.

Being a valuable partner to Catherine doesn't mean Shamir is on par with a Heroes Relic. Catherine is implied to be a league of her own among the Knights of Seiros, or in Gatekeeper's words, "the Cream of the Cream." Edelgard was also shocked when Catherine made an appearance, while she barely reacted to Shamir sans the moment the latter tried to shoot her in the head.

Jeritza definitely doesn't pose a "major" threat to Byleth. Arval states that only Shez was powerful enough to kill base Byleth in GW (Which includes the likes of Claude, and Holst). So Jeritza likely wouldn't even be able to kill base Byleth, let alone Enlightened One Byleth, let alone them with the Sublime Sword of the Creator. Though, he would still scale to Relic Users, as his Scythe should at least be as strong as the Arrow of Indra, which is stated to be close in power to a Heroes Relic.

Count Bergliez never said that Caspar is stronger than him, just that he was finally defeated by Caspar. Shez performed better than Caspar actually, as Caspar himself states that no one's ever kept up with Count Bergliez's training as long as Shez has. Also, the training seems to be focused on endurance rather than strength, since Caspar mentions something along the lines of his father needing to come up with even tougher training for Shez, which doesn't really make sense if the context was referring to a fight. And scaling wise, Shez is superior to Count Bergliez, so there's also that.

Balthus doesn't completely scale to Holst, since the latter outright states that he holds back when sparring.

 

[The_Smashor]

People haven't written this stuff down yet so all I really have to go off of is my own memories here.

 

[The_Smashor]

Alright, I just got another support where Dedue noted that while he wasn't as strong as a Relic user, the gap between him and relics was not insurmountable (At least that's what I gathered from that)

Specifically, his A support with Annete in Three Hopes.

Also, Balthus notes that he dosn't know who would win between Dimitri and Holst in Azure Gleam.

Honestly, I might try to compile every statement and story event involving the relics to try and figure all this out once I've completed Azure Gleam.

 

[TheGatememer]

Dedue outright states that he will never reach the level of a Heroes Relic. He was speaking hypothetically when talking about somehow closing the gap.

Holst would scale to Relic users yea

 

[TheGatememer]

About the whole "Low 2-C" feat in Three Hopes, I feel like there is some basis to it.

Spoiler

Zahras collapsed upon Epimenides' death, which implies it was sustained by his power. This is further supported by him using the "Laws of Creation" to unleash the spell in the first place (which seems pretty self-explanatory), and during the various phases of the fight, is seen distorting the realm. Though the latter could just be Space-Time Manipulation.

There's also the statement in Heroes where Sothis wonders if she created Midgard, which implies she has the power to create a realm.

 

[JustSomeWeirdo]

Might just be 3-A, though, idk

Spoiler

unless I missed something and Zahras has different time

Either way massive dub

 

[TheGatememer]

Spoiler

Zahras has been stated to be a different world entirely, and is confirmed to have a Space-Time. So it's more likely than not Low 2-C.

 

[JustSomeWeirdo]

Fair, alright then

IS then drops another "Ike is the strongest" statement

 

[TheGatememer]

To be fair, characters from Three Houses were summoned 5 years prior to the events of Book V by Eitri, which probably means the Order of Heroes knew about Fodlan

 

[JustSomeWeirdo]

Common Ike W

though that's probably a possibly of a possibly at best, tbh, so Ike can probably range anywhere from like, "At least High 6-A, likely 4-A, possibly Low 2-C" or something like that