Final Fantasy XV: "The Power of the Stars"

[Matthew_Schroeder]

So... @The Everlasting has started making profiles for Final Fantasy XV, and a really appreciate his effort.

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Noctis_Lucis_Caelum

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Ardyn_Izunia

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Gladiolus_Amicitia

They are ranked at 4-C due to this thing:

"Capable of matching and significantly wounding the Astrals, who are manifestations of the power of the stars"

I have some problems with this:

• Nothing about being a "Manifestation" implies usage of full power. If in the FFXV Universe, the stars have a soul / consciousness and power, and take physical forms as the Astrals to interact with the world, I don't believe they would be as powerful as the full thing.

• This information is not in the game. From what The Everlasting told me, it comes from an interview. Well, okay, secondary-canon sources can still be used, but this leads me to the third problem.

• I have never seen this being sourced.

Extensive research only gave me three things:

http://kotaku.com/in-final-fantasy-xv-your-mp-isnt-for-magic-1675058839

http://www.finalfantasyunion.com/ne...bos-tonberries-cities-and-story-with-famitsu/

http://www.novacrystallis.com/2015/09/luna-shows-up-as-a-guest-party-member-in-final-fantasy-xv/

These are the closest I could find. The first says that the Astrals are the "Power of the world", the second says they were involved in the creation of the world. Only the third mentions stars. Furthermore, all of them say these informations come from Famitsu Interviews... Famitsu Interviews I was never able to find.

Unless we can find the original source, or this is something stated in-game, I don't think it should be used...

 

[The_Living_Tribunal1]

"Manifestation of the power of stars" does that literally mean power of a star? because power of a star = its luminosity, and iirc that tends to vary from Multi continental level to around planet level for the most massive stars

 

[LordXcano]

What TLT said. The "power of the Earth" is vague and about as grounded as "the speed of thought" in fiction.

Also, I don't think anyone really scales to the Astrals. Noctis was struggling incredibly to parry casual attacks from Titan, and he even straight up nearly dies fighting Leviathan. In fact I'm pretty sure it's said he only surpasses the Astrals at the very very end of the game.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Not really. Both Titan and Ifrit are Boss Fights, and you do harm and tank attacks from them, and both Ardyn and Noctis by EoG are above the combined power of the Astrals.

Also, nothing implies that Titan was casual, and Noctis even shattered his ******* arm. He only nearly died fighting Leviathan because of stamina drain due to having the full Armiger Arsenal at such an early point. It was too taxing. Besides, the fact that he can harm them in any capacity and survive even one of their attacks shows he's on their level.

Also, upon talking with Ever on the subject, we found these quotes from the in-game lore:

"In the distant past, Bahamut, the Draconian, descended to the mortal realm and graced the people of Tenebrae. From among them, he handpicked a pious maiden and bestowed upon her the power of the Stars and his trident. Using these gifts for the good of all, she became the first Oracle - she who joins heaven and earth."

"There once lived a man, born to a mortal but blessed with powers divine. Conjuring a collection of glaives he dispelled the darkness plaguing our star. As a reward for his efforts, the god granted him a holy Stone - the Crystal, which he was to guard at all costs, for it would one day choose a King to see us through the coming disaster and lead us to salvation."

 

[LordXcano]

"Not really. Both Titan and Ifrit are Boss Fights, and you do harm and tank attacks from them, and both Ardyn and Noctis by EoG are above the combined power of the Astrals."

Yes, by EoG. As in, after Noctis sits on the throne.

"Noctis even shattered his ******* arm"

After it was frozen, which in fiction is almost always used to make something less durable. Same reason why Sub-Zero can suddenly casually shatter someone's entire body despite previously only doing chip damage to them.

"Besides, the fact that he can harm them in any capacity and survive even one of their attacks shows he's on their level."

I can harm and take hits from people with military training but that doesn't mean I'm military fit.

Not sure what any of the quotes have to do with scaling Noctis to the Astrals.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Titan is a very early game boss. No indication it was casual. If you can tank his attacks, block his arm and stuff, any later character scales from it.

 

[LordXcano]

Titan is a very early game boss. No indication it was casual. If you can tank his attacks, block his arm and stuff, any later character scales from it.

The attacks he does are either very slow punches or literally just trying to step on you. Meanwhile once you defeat him and use him as a summon he suddenly starts melting the ground around you and chucking mountains about.

 

[PaChi2]

Well, I myself have some doubts over this "Manifestation of the power of the stars" being enough to justify a 4-C rank. Anyway, Titan wasn't casual on Noctis (you think they are slow punches because of its massive size, they aren't truly), he had been disturbed and also attacked by the Empire (so its not like its mood is that good). If it didnt use its bests attacks (like throwing a mountain at you) its just PIS because Nocis didnt have a way to avoid them at the time.

 

[Bats16]

Noctis is most certainly comparable to the Astrals, even before EoG. He decimates Leviathan with the armiger arsenal early on. He has no problem parrying attacks from Titan and shattering his arm early on. This all happened before he powered up immensely via the crystal for 10 years. After that he absolutely dwarfs any Astral in power. He was more than capable of taking down Ifrit without the armiger arsenal by then.

I wouldn't place them on a 4-C ranking either based on that quote. "Star" has a tendency to be used quite a lot when referring to "planet" in Japanese.

 

[The_Living_Tribunal1]

power of a star means the luminosity of a star

that would vary based on the star, but i dont think it would be higher than 5-B

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I don't think it means anything in particular. It's an ambiguous term. Could be luminosity, it's heat energy, the power of its core, etc.

 

[Antvasima]

So it might be best to scale the FFXV characters from something else then?

 

[Cropfist]

I agree with the downgrades, power of the stars is very vague.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Well, one of the DLC Bosses is going to be Gilgamesh, so if all else fails, we'll have 5-A.

But I'm waiting.

 

[The_Living_Tribunal1]

how about this: low end= luminosity of sun

high end = hydrogen used up by the sun in the protium to helium reaction set each second

 

[Antvasima]

I also think that scaling from Gilgamesh seems like a more reasonable solution.

 

[Sera_EX]

@Bats16 that is false. Star is normally distinguished from planet. Even in translations.

They are called "Astrals", they are the manifestations of the power of stars". Regarding Astrals, Tabata says there aren't many in the game. You'll encounter them in the story and they won't care at all about what's happening in the human realm (they are of a different realm). We don't know what they think either. Astrals have their own intelligence, gender, and willpower. Their behavior is very different from that of humans. They play an important role in the concept of the "power of the stars". If you have played the game you have a gist of what this means and future material will likely expand upon this.

Honestly, there is nothing wrong with 4-C rating. Final Fantasy has games that go up to Tier 2. Plus, we just came from a not concluded argument about upgrading/downgrading a certain character (or characters) based of vagueness. Vagueness is all over fiction. I think people who have played the game (myself, Everlasting, PaChi, and...Matt?) should discuss this. I may even go back over certain parts of the game just to clarify this.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thank you for the information.

 

[SomebodyData]

Agreeing with downgrades

@Sera vagueness is all over fiction, yes, but this level of vagueness isn't. Arguing that nothing is wrong with the 4-C rating based on previous entries and their tiers in the series is also quite fallacious.

If it is stated that someone destroys a planet, it is vague but we get the gist of what it means. This is something else entirely.

 

[PaChi2]

Well, if I'm not mistaken we have:

5-A for fighting Gilgamesh. No questions here. It's legit.

4-C for being the manifestation of the power of the stars. This rating is supported by statements and the Astral's lore ingame. No feat, tho. Being deities, and their important role in the story, further backs up the possible Tier 4.

http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Astral

"At least 5-A, likely 4-C" would be a low-end, if anything.

 

[SomebodyData]

@Pachi what statements and lore?

 

[Sera_EX]

That's not fair. We have verses with statistics based off interviews, WOG statements, and vague interpretations, some of which are more vague than this...yet they still are accepted.

 

[PaChi2]

It's in the link I provided (I know its a wikia, but still). I'd have to play the game again to look for the precise quotes (which I will do in the future, as of now I cannot).

 

[SomebodyData]

@Sera The first part is a false comparison. I'm arguing we shouldn't use it due to vagueness not statements or interviews. And no, we do not allow vague interpretations, if you see any, please tell us as that is against the basic foundations of our system.

@Pachi okay I'll check.

 

[SomebodyData]

@Pachi Is there any precise quotes or information that you wanted me to check over in the wiki page? Because nothing there actually helps tier them at 4-C.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I posted two lore quotes in an upper post. And we really do base certain verses on even worst evidence: Twitter.

 

[Sera_EX]

But we do... Reinhard Heydrich's base tier is based off a WoG statement, one that powerscales to another character from a different series entirely (albiet created by the same author).

Nonetheless, I won't argue if everyone agrees with a downgrade.

 

[SomebodyData]

Hmmm, again these two quotes are kinda vague, though, what is this darkness that plagued the star? If it's a creature that is literally like a Star Parasite or something I have no problem with scaling to that.

By Twitter, do you mean WoG stating something there? Because if so, that's not really any different than an interview.

@Sera that's a debate for another day about cross-verse scaling and WoG, although, again, false comparsion, I'm arguing about how vague the quote is.

 

[PaChi2]

"Said to be physical manifestations of the stars' power, Astrals are hinted to be connected to the world's creation and deities. They are intelligent creatures that have their own agendas, speak a unique language, and play an integral role in the Final Fantasy XV Universe. Indifferent to human affairs, Astrals' behavior cannot be interpreted because their thought patterns transcend the comprehension of mankind." (Sorry to quote like this)

I mean, they are gods, lore-wise and ingame they are superior to the rest of the creatures (any time you summon an Astral, all the enemies are killed, even Shiva can freeze Ifrit). This even puts them above Gilgamesh.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

But we do... Reinhard Heydrich's base tier is based off a WoG statement, one that powerscales to another character from a different series entirely (albiet created by the same author).

Nonetheless, I won't argue if everyone agrees with a downgrade.

We do the same thing with Shigeo Kageyama

 

[SomebodyData]

@Pachi that would qualify for At least 5-A, not 4-C.

@Cal what I said to Sera

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I am fine with 4-C Astrals myself, but I would like an in-game scans showing it. The prophecies are in-game, right?

 

[Sera_EX]

Why is that allowed then?

 

[PaChi2]

I asked for likely 4-C if we go by statements. You can change that to possibly, since it isnt a big jump in tier (from 5-A to 4-C if you take the statement at face value).

 

[SomebodyData]

@Sera Again, that is another argument altogether (Although I agree it should not be allowed unless there are special circumstances.) This is not the place for it either.

@PaChi we only jump tiers with huge gaps in power, and believe me, I've seen bigger.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I eventually saw it, SD. You ninja'd me with your response.

 

[Sera_EX]

Never mind then. I wish my word mattered. I was going to bring up a potential mistranslation but I doubt that would sway anyone's mind.

 

[SomebodyData]

Your word does matter, which is why I have to debunk it. Don't take it personally, its just to ensure accuracy in profiles. Well it depends on the background of the mistranslation and its likelihood.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

@Sera

Can you talk or show scenes in-game where the concept applies.

 

[Sera_EX]

"Astra" neans "stars" in Latin. These beings are called "Astrals". In Japanese, "Astral", "Star", "Celestial", "Heaven", are all commonly linked to the Japanese word "Õñ®" (Ten). They are stated to be linked to the deities. So we can say, they are the manifestations of the power of the deities. They were even involved in the creation of "the world". Now I won't say this is the entire universe, perhaps just Eos (the planet). So they would be 5-A from that alone.

But as I said, I doubt this will sway your mind.