Final Fantasy XV: "The Power of the Stars"

[Matthew_Schroeder]

It isn't a "Near-Universal" thing in fiction. The very fact that Noctis can freeze Titan's arm has him scale. The very fact that he can block his punches makes Noctis scale. The very fact that you can significantly hurt Titan makes it scale. End of story. Don't argue about if the intent of the writers were to "Oh, now Noctis can break him because he froze his arm". We ignore authorial intent on such things. We go by what is shown.

Noctis dies from surpassing the combined might of 6 astrals, not a single one. Also, Noctis scales from Gilgamesh in speed, and once again you are acting under the fallacious assumption that bringing up a low-end disproves a feat

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Noctis getting shot is a game mechanic. You wouldn't be capable of controlling him if he was depicted in-game as as fast as he is by feats / scaling. Lightning Bolts in the distance are not an indication of your speed.

You are basically arguing that Sonic isn't FTL because he is only Subsonic in gameplay.

 

[LordXcano]

@Matt Noctis does not freeze Titan's arm, Ignis, Prompto, and Gladious combined are needed to do that.

In the same fight we also see:

• Titan's mere presence causes Noctis migrains through his power

• Gladious implies that had they fallen off the cliff they would've died

• Noctis struggles incredibly for several seconds to move just a fraction of Titan's weight and even fails to do so the second time the attack comes

• Gladious says a head-on fight with Titan is not possible, and Noctis agrees. Gladious then says Titan could kill Noctis

• Noctis struggles to stand up after fighting Titan for all of a few minutes, while Titan is none the worse for wear

• Gladious, the physical rival of Noctis, blocks a hit from Titan but states right after that he "can't keep this up", showing that he is weaker than Titan

• Noctis struggles to block 2 hits from Titan, and then immediately gets beat down as soon as he tries to fight him head-on

• Noctics, with a heavy sword, does minor chip damage to Titan, while each hit from Titan takes a huge chunk of his health, one attack in particular even taking out over half his remaining HP

• Noctis needs the support of the Empire's army and his entire team in order to defeat Titan

• Gladious and Femto both consider the fight with Titan to be potentially lethal, believing that they will die against him even with the support of an army

• Only after an extended fight with the support of his entire team, and army, the use of Armiger, and a special attack that froze Titan's arm is Noctis able to do any lasting damage against Titan.

As for the speed, this is not "one low-end", this is a consistent portrayal throughout the entire game. Not once are you ever able to dodge lightning, and I've yet to see a single instance where they prove physically capable of blocking bullets. Yes, I know they can beat Gilgamesh, but as people brought up above scaling everyone in FF to Gilgamesh is kinda questionable when most don't actually have the feats to suggest they're on that level.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

4 People hurting a 4-C / 5-A is still 4-C/ 5-A.

The first point has nothing to do with AP.

The second is an anti-feat, why are you bringing it up?

Noctis blocked his punches. And it doesn't matter if Gladiolus could only block one punch, blocking one punch would still scale. You are 4-C regardless if you tank 4-C hits or barely survive them. So them going "The fight is lethal" is also meaningless.

Life Bars are Game-Mechanics.

They fought Gilgamesh, here's your Speed Feat. Square Enix has no clue of how strong their characters are. It would be like arguing against Tier 4 Kingdom Hearts because they only have to Tier 4 feats. But those feats are reliable explict displays of power, while 99% of the fights in Kingdom Hearts are featless.

 

[The_Everlasting]

I agree with rescaling the cast to Gilgamesh. It helps with consistency of his appearance anyway.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Alright, Ever. So would you be willing to change the pages? It'd make this thread concluded.

 

[LordXcano]

@Matt

They aren't 4-C though.

First point shows that Titan is unimaginably stronger than Noctis.

Because anti-feats are useable. This is a basic tenant of how vs. debating works. We don't just use high-ends over and over and over again because they're better. That's dishonest to how the character is portrayed.

He blocked his punches, but it is repeatedly hammered in that Titan is casually far stronger than him in these sequences.

Yes, they are, we still use them for scaling with things like Undertale though.

We have no idea how strong Gilgamesh is in this particular incarnation though, and one speed feat does not trump numerous anti-feats and consistent depiction of speed. We went over this in the MGS thread, just because there is one good speed feat doesn't make everyone that speed when every other feat fails to match.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

If he was unimaginably stronger, Noctis would have died and never blocked his punches or broken his arms. And who is Femto?

Also, Undertale does not work like most games. In it, Game Mechanics such as turns and Life-Bars are brought up on the story.

 

[Reppuzan]

@XCano

Then we'd have to scale down literally every Final Fantasy character because they have so many anti-feats. For example, Zack Fair to Street level for dying to bullets despite surviving attacks that bust moons none the worse for wear and fought Sephiroth of all people.

Gilgamesh's feats are extremely consistent across almost all of his incarnations. If Gilgamesh is anything like his Final Fantasy V counterpart, we can use those stats. The only ones I don't think we can use the scaling for are II, IV, and VII (where he doesn't appear) and IX and Type-0 (where's he's completely different).

 

[LordXcano]

I meant Prompto, not Femto. Also, Superman is unimaginably stronger than Batman yet nearly every single time they fight Batman is capable of tanking at least one hit. Same with Mr. Satan surviving a hit from Cell.

 

[DerpCity]

@Xcano For your Undertale point, the Atk and Def Check stats are used, which aren't use to calculate damage and are simply references of comparison between the monsters. Before one of the updates, Papyrus had 8 attack and 2 defense while Undyne had 7 attack and 0 defense, which was roughly accurate to their damage values in game and implying that Papyrus > Undyne. In the previously mentioned update, Papyrus was changed to 20 attack and 20 defense and Undyne was given 50 attack and 20 defense and the actual damage values remained the same. HP and raw damage aren't used, as far as I'm aware.

 

[Reppuzan]

@LordXcano

1) Superman is almost always holding back in those appearances due to his very nature as a character.

2) Mr. Satan surviving getting hit by Cell is a gag feat.

 

[LordXcano]

@Derp I am aware. However my point was still that since we use Atk to scale Undertale characters, the fact Titan has a much more massive Atk than Noctis would imply that Noctis is still much weaker.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Using comicbook examples when talking about other media should never be done. It's about as dishonest as can be. We have a literal page here about how DC and Marvel are more inconsistent than the rest of fiction.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Regardless, the maker of the pages and the most knowledgeble member on Final Fantasy on this site has agreed to re-scale the pages, so this thread is meaningless to keep, as it filled its purpose.

 

[Reppuzan]

I'm closing this then.