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Final Fantasy discussion thread II: Fighting the Empire

Was Cloud explicitly stronger than his endgame counterpart? If so by how much? When Cloud is having the final duel against Kadaj Tifa mentions all of them grew weaker in the two years that passed (and compares her and her allies to how strong they were when they took down Sephiroth), but Cloud somehow found a way to "regain that strength".

And- we need this exchange with Don Corneo:

Don Corneo You don't like me?
There... there isn't someone else, is there?

Cloud - No, only you
- Yes, his name's Barret...
 
She was talking about their "fighting spirit" most likely. Cloud is a super solder with Jenova cells running through his veins. I don't think the party was ever meant to be in the same league as him beside Vincent.
 
Hmm, while I do think that Cloud and Vincent are the top of the group (can't speak of who's stronger between those two, though), the party could fight SOLDIER members without issue, after Cloud goes missing after the Whirlwind Maze Barret and Cait Sith can easily dispatch 2nd Class members without Cloud and in the Midgar raid the party splits into groups and Shinra have their 1st Class SOLDIER trying to stop them, which they all defeat without much issue.

Jenova Cells do give a boost for sure, but how effective they are depends a lot on the procedure used to inject them. A good part of Cloud's abilities also have to do with his natural potential, as seen in CC he could lift and swing the Buster Sword well enough and BC (and Ultimanias) do mention he has a natural talent for swordsmanship.
 
>Jenova cells give a boost

>The party literally kills Jenova, who, presumably, is made of Jenova cells.

Jenova cells are hardly anything relevant.
 
I would argue it mostly has to do with gameplay mechanic more than anything. I mean, party can fight Safer Sephy in game but are completely irrelevant in AC and Tifa can't beat even a casual Loz.

This is made even more apparent when the party fight the Banhunt and barely do any damage to it, yet Cloud take it out almost single-handedly while STILL weakend due to Geostigma and take on 2 remnant laster on and defeat them without using any materia at all. DoC is same thing again excetp Vincet do most of the work this time.

Cloud and Vincent has this whole Melodious/Escanor in mid NNT thing who are just vastly above the rest of the cast

I guess we will see what the remake do with the rest of the cast. Saying that Barret would beat people like Zack or Syphy just because the game allows him to beat Syphy is ridiculous but this one on the wiki system to blame and tbh JRPG scaling is just shit overall.
 
As for why Cloud is so strong, I remember it has to do with him being injected with pure S-cells or something "Same treatment as Sephy which makes him vastly superior to even First class SOLDIER."

I am not sure tho it's really been a while and those S-cells didn't seems to do much to Zack after he wakes up so dunno.

Although it really begs the question. Cloud was a total faliure who couldn't even make it to low class SOLDIER and was just a grunt witout even skill at fighting yet somehow he's Sehpy calss many years later. I guess Cloud is OP because he's the main character.
 
Everyone can trade blows with Safer Sephiroth is the justification for 4-B ratings; though Cloud is noticeably the strongest party member overall. Aerith is the only one who isn't quite on par with Seph given she dies before the final battle, but she'll be baseline 4-B scaling from the summons.
 
>That moment when fodder characters like Barret and yuffi are 4-B but Zack is fodder to them because he never got the chance to be hit by a supernova.

RIP Best bro.
 
Zack will also be 4-B, and not; none of the mooks are 4-B, but everyone comparable if not superior to Bahamut Fury will be baselinish 4-B at least. And everyone who can stand up to Supernova would be well above that for certain.
 
Oh. That's cool.

When are going to make the CRT then? Also, I guess remake will be our new canon then in case they change stuff "which they will" ?
 
I think there was already a Content Revision on it, but we just didn't get to that part yet.
 
@Zero: It's... a bit more complicated than that actually. I apologize for the long ass post.

The efficiency of Jenova cells depend on their purity but also how well interwined in the host's body they are, the reason why Sephy is so strong is because the purity of the Jenova Cells but also because since he got them in an embryonic stage he inherited the abilities the best as Jenova was always part of his growth. The SOLDIER program in itself is a replicatio of the process that created Sephiroth but carried on already grown adults. Thus, since the SOLDIER received pure Jenova cells they avoided the degradation of the G Project, but since they were already developed people (for the most part) they didn't really mix up with Jenova's genetic material to get her abilities, so they only got enhanced physical abilities.

The SOLDIER program required the subject to be very strong willed otherwise the procedure would lead to either Mako Poisoning or the host becoming a Jenova puppet like the Sephiroth Clones. This is important for two reasons, first Zack already had pure Jenova Cells as part of the SOLDIER program, but since he was already a grown man with a strong will he simply got enhanced physical abilities and stronger personal Spirit Energy for the Mako bath (and since he didn't grow with the cells like Sephy did, he didn't get Psychic powers nor the insane power Sephy had), but since he already had gone under the procedure having new cells implanted in him made no difference.

While I can't find the source right now, the reason Cloud failed the SOLDIER exam was his weak will due to his messed up childhood, which would have led him to be unable to take the procedure: either the mako bath would have led to poisoning (which it did, as seen after Nibelheim) or become an empty Jenova Puppet (which he barely avoided thanks to Jenova's Memory reading in the cells inside him, and still became influenced by Sephiroth). In the physical aspect, Cloud was more tha suitable (remember other infantrymen can't even lift the Buster Sword). This is the reason why he wasn't kicked out of the military altogether.

While I can't speak for the exact tiering due to the revisions, remember that a constant theme in Crisis Core was how Zack, despite all his skill and talents, was constantly stringed into situations beyond his control and how he had no choice but to play along, with his death being very untimely given he had so much to live for and to do. It's not really much of a stretch to say he never reached his full potential, so if he was surpassed by other characters it's more because Zack never became as strong as he could have been.

And, as much as it pains me to say this, Cloud is completely outmatched by Sephiroth, he's comparable, sure, but his greatest accomplishment is being the guy who can put up the best fight against while being outclassed like almost everyone else. It's all but stated that the sole reason he won in AC is because Sephy was too focused on torturing him than ending things quickly. The Reunion Files and Staff Commentary of AC have confirmed Sephiroth is the undisputed top dog of the FFVII setting and that he took it very easy on Cloud, which is not OOC given how he managed to anchor himself after the events of VII. And the fight against Safer Sephiroth was an 8 on 1.

Keep in mind that against Bahamut SIN Cloud's attacks also did next to nothing against the dragon, it wasn't until he used his Limit Breaks that he dealt damage. Limit Breaks are openly stated to reach a much higher power than usual, due to their connectio to Spirit Energy.

Another important detail, is that Cloud despite being ill with Geostigma, he remained as an active fighter during the two years between VII and AC due to his work in the Strife Delivery Service, while everyone else tried to carry normal lives. 2 years is a long time, getting rusty is a natural outcome, especially since their first fight in that time was against high caliber opponents such as the Remnants or Bahamut SIN. I don't really agree that is just determiantion, otherwise Tifa, being such a loving motherly figure and caring friend wouldn't have spoken about how hers got weaker when Loz tried to kidnap Marlene who's pretty much her surrogate daughter, especially given how much imporance it has to her as seen in her Episode of On the Way to a Smile.

@Medeus: Honestly, looking forward to those. Still working on my side, hoping these can useful to you.
 
So what? It's typical villain is too OP but too arrogant and let his guard down? And Speh got killed by Cloud 3-4 times so he really must be beyond idito at this point lol.

Also, sorry, but I still don't buy the party being close to Cloud in any shape of form after their shitty performance when they can barely scratch the dragon and Cloud then takes it out on his own. He used limit break so what? Can't they use limit break as well?

Being rusty shouldn't turn you into a glass canon when characters like Rufus "who fought Cloud in the past" can be killed if they fall from a high height and Brret being unable to make a long jump to the other side of bullding without Cloud coming in flying so I really think it's just a matter of inconsistency.

Tifa literally got blizted and one shoutted by Loz who isn't remotly close to FP Seph. Am I really supposed to buy that she turned into absolute fodder just because she played mom for 2 years?
 
Either way, this is an issue I noticed in many JRPG. Many party members are just normal humans "or even kids at times" who start the game as fodders and end fighting the world most powerful beings without explanation or justification what so ever and we are supposed to say "they just got strong throught the event of the game" despite other characters in-universe being active in comabt for many years and yet are no where near the same level.
 
Man I can't wait for the FFVII remake to include a bonus battle with Gilgamesh but it's specifically XV Gilgamesh and not the traditional Gilgamesh
 
Genericstickman said:
Man I can't wait for the FFVII remake to include a bonus battle with Gilgamesh but it's specifically XV Gilgamesh and not the traditional Gilgamesh
Click to expand...
And that's how we get 4-B Chocobros
 
Yes, that's pretty much it. Thing is, Sephiroth's case actually explains why said overconfidence exists as explaind in Episode Lifestream Black. Cloud defeated Sephiroth four times, but break it down and there are major buts in all of them: Nibelheim, Sephiroth's megalomania had completely exploded as the "heir of the Planet" idea came to him and he was absorbed with Jenova and his superiority, Cloud got a surprise attack that gravely wounded him and when Sephy fought back (showing he could easily kill Cloud had he tried) he was more focused on confronting Cloud on how a measly grunt like him dared to hurt Sephiroth, underestimating Cloud who turned the tables on Sephiroth who was too shocked the grunt could be fighting back; the fight in the Planet's Core is an 8 on 1, armed with Materia, which in Advent Children is kept under Cloud's custody (which, according to Staff Commentary, he went to get to have an edge against the Remnants but Loz stole the box after he defeated Tifa); their 1 on 1, while not having a direct confirmation, is widely considered a spiritual battle of Cloud's will towards Sephiroth's will in their minds, with Cloud essentially having grown so strong mentally that he won't be Sephy's pupper anymore; finally AC, Cloud barely keeps up the entire fight and is visibly exhausted, while Sephiroth grunts only once (Reunion Files comment this was deliberate), Sephy then easily puts Cloud on the verge of defeat when using Octaslash, and loses when he begins to gloat and Cloud unleashes Omnislash Version 5/6, worth noting is that Sephiroth didn't use any of his abilities, no magic, no psychic powers (aside levitation and a single isntace of Telekinesis to crash down a building), no monster abilities, just swordsmanship.

It's not that impossible that when you step away from the fight and overall activity all your skills diminish, it's pretty normal among real life fighters and a common theme in fiction; Tifa was tending a bar and taking care of two kids, Barret was helping Cid in developing new technology without Mako and looking for other fuels, Yuffie was tending the ill in Wutai, Nanaki was travelling the world, but in that time raised to Nibel Bears, Reeve (and by extension Caith Sith) was working on the WRO. The only ones carrying any sort of fighting were Cloud and Vincent (forgot to mention him as well, but he was going around monster infested places too... there's also his immortality). As I mentioned above, if you watch the fight, Cloud's attack don't even scratch Bahamut SIN until he resorts to Braver and Climhazzard. Limit Breaks depend on the control of the Spirit Energy of the user, and reach a particular state where said energy overflows, so they can't just spam them. Not to mention Barret and Nanaki did use Limit Breaks, Barret tried Mindblow, which did apparently nothing as Bahamut SIN wasn't using magic only breath and physical attacks, and Nanaki used Sled Fang which managed to knock over the Summon, almost the same effect Braver had.

Rufus fought early game Cloud, who at most measured to 3rd Class SOLDIER, and even then he was forced to flee very quickly. Not only that, he spent, as seen in Episode Shinra, most of the gap between VII and AC crippled due to the Diamond Weapon's attack, and he also had Geostigma during AC. He's far from comparable to a full strength Cloud.

I don't deny there are inconsistencies, PIS is a thing. Barret not reacting properly to the debris about to crush him could be chalked to his reflexes being dulled from inactivity, not to mention he did go up that building to get a good shot on Bahamut to begin with. What is PIS is how falling rubble would have been lethal given his durability. A similar case can be said for Rufus, which I more or less agree, while I do insist he is in no way comparable to Cloud at his peak, by the time they fought Cloud was certainly above Bulding Level (or wathever tier a high fall is)

Narrative wise there's also the issue that AC and other materials acknowledge everybody fought Sephiroth together. Had they been much weaker than Cloud then why would they be there to begin with if they were dead weight? Had that been the case Cloud should have gone alone, but they working together is something acknowledged.

EDIT: Remember as well Sephiroth became significantly stronger each time he came back, even if their Remnants are much weaker than he is, his rebirth boost makes that comparison unfair. If the Reunion Files are to go by, they are an incomplete manifestation of Sephiroth's spirit as he was in the Lifestream after his defeat in VII. Not to mention they lack psychic abilities, natural magic or Spirit Energy use like Sephiroth, which is what made the original so deadly beyond raw stats. If I had to take a guess I could see Loz does have the raw power of pre AC Sephiroth, but not his skill, intelligence or versatility (which Sephy uses much more in his monster forms).
 
@Beware: Yeah, she looks great in the render. Thanks for the heads up.

@Stickman: That would be awesome, actually (and hilarious). Crossover bosses like Omega or Shinryu would be pretty dope, actually. One thing I've wondered is if this time around we'll get to fight summons to get the Red Materia.

@ZERO: Honestly, I kind of agree. Video games in general can get pretty tricky given how one moment you're fighting for the city, the following boss is threatening the Galaxy. Perhaps the most extreme example I've seen is in Bravely Default with their final bosses.
 
>Narrative wise there's also the issue that AC and other materials acknowledge everybody fought Sephiroth together.

That's my biggest issue. Those guys were absolutely irrelevant to a much weaker opponents like the remnant and Cloud had to do 70% of the job despite being weakened at the time, and their only excuse is: We didn't fight for 2 years so now we dropped from 4-B to bullding level and we have a hard time keeping with casual Seph Remnants and Cloud had to solo everything in the movie. SE got away with it in FFVII because it's gameplay mechanic and there is barely any cutscenes or in-story context, which is why in my opinion AC scaling may be much closer to the creator's vision of how characters stack to each other.

I mean, it's been a while but weren't the party also mostly useless in DoC and Vincent had to actually fight most top tier characters?

FFVII remake seems to tone down the power creep however and Cloud appearntly needs some support from characters like Barret.
 
To be honest, the original game also had pretty bad inconsistencies: Cid getting trapped under a metal plate during the Huge Materia Rocket Mission that the entire party can't lift, until Shera a normal scientist helps pulling; Tifa being unable to outrun the falling path in Medeel when the Ultimate Weapon attacked, instead of grabbing Cloud and jumping away; Yuffie struggling to carry a boy her age in her episode in the On the Way to a Smile novel; Yuffie trapping the party with a simple steel cage; Barret and Tifa restrained by handcuffs; Tifa locked in a gas chamber and being unable to bust the door open; even in AC Cloud is shot in the back by Yazoo at the end and is heavily wounded, but at the beginning he is shot point blank in an eye and just gets a small cut.

Inconsistencies are abundant, and this isn't only in FFVII, look on other games and you'll come across a lot of them. I wouldn't be surprised that may verses on the site are considered more powerful than what its authors imagined, be it standards or simply not realizing how strong certain feats may be. The dissonance is there.

I also barely remember DoC, since I also played it way too long ago so I can't really speak for that, sorry.

I am actually really liking the party interactions in the Remake, crossing my fingers the whole game can mantain the quality the Bombing Mission has been reported to have. Give it's more action oriented it will certainly be much more easier to establish tiering based on stuff without much dissonance between battle and story.
 
Speaking of remake, any characters you guys wish will be in the remake? I think a character like Cissnei is more than likely to make an appearance. I also would like them to expand on Tseng's character more.
 
Sadly, an early interview mentioned the Remake would stay firmly rooted in the original game and would share no connections with the compilation, so Cissnei's chances are slim as of now.

But, given this takes place in Midgar it's a very solid chance to explore more in depth about Shinra and the Turks from a new POV, which I am all in for. Perhaps we can finally get to see Tseng fight and find more details on his relationship and custody of Aerith. Aside him, perhaps get more background on Reno, Rude and Elena.
 
Hmm? could swear they said in a recent interview that they will take elements from compilation although the compilation itself is not canon to the remake.

Many of the turks got the short end of the stick in the origianl game so yeah, I would like to explore them more.
 
Really? The interview I mentioned is pretty old, so perhaps they changed their minds. If you come across it please let me know.

The big question I have now as well is how Materia customization works this time around.
 
Sweet! I was hoping for Materia combinations to be back. Can see why some Materias will be gone, there are some which were situational even in the original game and would fit even less in the new combat. I guess we can expect new Limit Breaks, at least in later episodes.

Any news on Summons? I am guessing they still pop up attack and leave.

Edit: Huh, according to this the Honey Bee Inn wasn't "modernized" as much as simply rearranged to fit the new visual style.

Good, find Zero, this site seems pretty good when it comes to video game news.
 
Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't the cross dressing and honey moon event different? You can get Cloud to dress like a girl and go to don's mansion right away while honey bee is modre of extra stuff.

I don't see anything so wrong with this section of the game besides the men bathtub scene. They would be a bunch of sheep's if they remove those scenes.
 
@Zero: It's as you say, Don Corneo's mansion and the Honey Bee Inn are separate instances. While getting the different clothes for Cloud's outfit you can optionally go to the Honey Bee Inn to get underwear to complete the disguise. However, most people consider them part of the same "pack" to put it somehow. Giving the topic people were concerned initially it wouldn't make it, but Nomura confirmed early on they were keeping it. A mistranslation of a recent interview has raised discussion if it will be toned down somehow, but an apparently more proper translation simply talks about a redesign to fit the newer more realistic style.

@PaChi: I wanna fight Tseng as well, despite being leader of the Turks we've never seen him in action.
 
I thought Tseng wanted to protecc Aerith cuz he felt bad about Zack?
 
Reno joked about him having the hots for "that ancient" in the original game and Zack didn't like how he was always romaing around Aerith, so there's definitely a tease

Him protracting Aerith has nothing to do with Zack it's part of his job.
 
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