• This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.

    For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here.
  • We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.

    Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.

    Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page.
  • Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.

FGO Shimosa Revisions

Status
Not open for further replies.
Iapitus_The_Impaler

Iapitus_The_Impaler

16,606
1,791
Ritsuka Fujimaru:

Heroic Spirit Swordmasters (Hōzōin Inshun, Tomoe Gozen, Minamoto no Yorimitsu, Shuten-douji, Munenori Yagyü)

Amakusa Shirou

He also has a Reality Marble named The Hell of Shimabara, the remains of his original world etched into his soul, more detail below.

Munenori Yagyü

  • Resistance to Curse Manipulation, Corruption, Mind Manipulation and Soul Manipulation (Even as a Human, he was unaffected by the Curse of Annihilatio, and completely shrugged it off as a Servant)
  • Yagyu needs a key for when he obtained "Suigetsu". This only applies to the Servant Munenori summoned in Chaldea, and not the living one in Shimosa. It would function very similarly to Musashi's Zero and Kojirou's Infinity. He also needs a Saber Emperio/living key, which would be slightly different from the others. I'll go into the scaling/AP for that bellow. His key would be as follows: Base | Saber Emperio/Living | Suigetsu.
  • AP: Unknown (Managed to obtain "Suigetsu", a state equivalent to Musashi's Zero and Kojirou's Infinity. As such, he should be capable of reaching a similar existence to both of them, with Musashi admitting that he still surpasses her even after she reached Zero. His fundamental concept is meant to contrast Zero, in that instead of merely transcending all that exists, it is meant to reflect and mirror all of creation), At least [regular servant AP]
  • Speed: Infinite (As a user of Suigetsu, he should be capable of reaching similar heights and realms as Musashi and Kojirou when using Zero and Infinity, respectively)
  • The AP for his living self has a kinda complicated scaling chain, but I'll try to break it down in an understandable way. Raikou and Shuten say that, if they wanted to defeat Yagyu, they would need to power of their living selves. Living Raikou scales above living Kintoki, due to being his master. Both Berserker and Rider Kintoki are repeatedly stated to have the strength/power of a Thunder God, and to have inhereted the strength of his dad. While they are refering to his NP, his living self should be at least as powerful physically, and his NP requires his monstrous strength to use anyway.
    • "Carrying the power of the thunder god. The True Name is probably not this, but it is invoked with such name. Golden unreasonableness. Changing the subject for a bit, his favorite novelist is Golden Tax (Jin Yong)."
    • "Golden Drive - Good Night. A charge attack by means of the Golden Bear, which changed into its super high-speed charge form. Bear's tire is the transformed hand drum of the thunder god, and power rises with each revolution. A summoning in which his disposition as the child of a thunder god has been emphasized, but because his aspect as the child of a mountain witch has also been emphasized, there is a possibility that he has turned into a more "dangerous man" than when a Berserker as a result. He got caught up in the mood by driving a monster machine-- one could also hold such viewpoint." This one even outright weilds the weapons of a divine spirit, and in his alive form, it would be on par with the original for obvious reasons
  • His Dad, Raijin, isn't that notable of a divine spirit or Thunder God, so it is reasonable to scale him to another neither notably powerful nor notably weak divine spirit. Some of the Nasu supports and I talked it over and we decided that the most reliable means of scaling would be to the Lion King. While she is a full blown divine spirit, she isn't that notable as one power wise. Therefore, Living Yagyu would be physically on par with the Lion King.
Katou Danzou

Fuuma Kotarou

Musashi Miyamoto

Sasaki Kojirou

Oh also, one last thing I forget was to add the abilities of dimension hoppers:

  • Resistance to Reality Warping and BFR, since they naturally have to resist being returned to their original world by the restorative properties of The Worlds they enter.
  • Musashi, Avenger Amakusa, and other folks who have had their original universes culled also need Accausality types 1 and 4. The universe they came from technically never existed so they completely "lack a beginning." Thus, they have these abilities
 
I saw the scans for the Sword Saints beforehand, so that stuff's a no-brainer

Rest seems fine, although Yagyu scaling to Lion King feels a little bit like guesswork but I can see the thought process behind it
 
You know my thoughts lol

This all looks good to me.

Though the acausality thing is a Nasuverse mechanic. Arichmedes said something about a "Past being as immutable as their future" something like that. So if they have no past, they shouldn't have a future. that wouold be type 2 Acausality wouldn't it??? Acauslaity is a confusing concept so i could be completely misunderstanding somethng
 
Why would it be flowery language? its pretty open and shut. Its gonna be a massive stretch at best to dismiss all of this as flowery language, since things like them just straight up surpassing the multiverse adds to the context of them surpassing time and space.

If something as outright as this can be dismissed as mere flowery language, then anything can be.
 
Zel97 said:
If her sword of zero can even kill the buddha shouldnt it be 2-A? Just a bit curious
Click to expand...
You could argue that yes, but Unknown is a bit better due to how much the scene introduces. They could be a few different tiers based on various different things. Hence, Unknown
 
It'd be nice to see how Yagyuu manages to scale to LK when the two haven't remotely interacted and transitive properties are hard to apply without a common character to compare to. Having zero idea of how strong Raijin is (let alone scaling to Raijin) doesn't mean you suddenly pick out LK as the obvious comparison, when Stheno and Euryale and other characters also exist.

Same for Infinite Speed Swordmasters when it's explicitly only a thing that happened due to Musashi and Kojirou clashing, while having no idea if Munenori would be capable of doing so.
 
I agree wholeheartedly of course.

I do want to see the statement of Suigetsu Yagyu surpassing Zero Musashi, however, for no other reason than because I like Musashi better and want her to be the best.
 
Why wouldn't you when they are both gods?

That's the whole point, the power of Gods varies a metric ton. Using Lion King as a standard just doesn't work.
 
RegisNex1232 said:
It'd be nice to see how Yagyuu manages to scale to LK when the two haven't remotely interacted and transitive properties are hard to apply without a common character to compare to. Having zero idea of how strong Raijin is (let alone scaling to Raijin) doesn't mean you suddenly pick out LK as the obvious comparison, when Stheno and Euryale and other characters also exist.
Same for Infinite Speed Swordmasters when it's explicitly only a thing that happened due to Musashi and Kojirou clashing, while having no idea if Munenori would be capable of doing so.
Click to expand...
I think I explained it pretty clearly how the scaling works between the 2. Also, we know that Raijin is like a meh divine spirit, or at least unotably powerful as far as one goes. Lion King is just about the only divine spirit that works for scaling to, as an average one goes anyway. Stheno and Euryale are specifically and repeatedly mentioned to be incredibly weak as far as a divine spirit goes, to the point that they can be summoned as servants without modification or any kind. If Raijin was that weak, then we would have him as a servant, or they definitely would have noted it. If you don't like raw scaling to that, then we can still upscale divine spirits from meh dragons for a similar result.

If they only naturally enter the void when they are clashing, then that is another issue, but that does not invalidate that they do reach infinite speed while there. Yagyu's abilities are greater than Musashi or Kojiro, or at the very least a comparable concept. If he was not capable of reaching a similar height, then he would not greater than or equal to them
 
LSirLancelotDuLacl said:
Why wouldn't you when they are both gods?
That's the whole point, the power of Gods varies a metric ton. Using Lion King as a standard just doesn't work.
Click to expand...
Because Chaldea repeatdly says they are very abnormal and notable exceptions to the power of divine spirits. We know that Divine Spirits are usually so powerful that they cannot be made into servants without some kind of modification like becoming a psuedo-servant. If there were so many Gods walking around that are so weak they can be summoned as standard servants, Chaldea would be full of them. Hell, we know that they were so weak that they did not even surpass the strength of mortals. They are notable because they are weak, which defeats the point of scaling the power of one unotable god to another.
 
LSirLancelotDuLacl said:
Don't agree with the justification for AP either. It just goes through a few really annoying loops that kinda make it a hard sell.
Click to expand...
Is it an issue with Yagyu's AP or the Unknown AP? The scaling is complicated, but its not flawed or anything like that, unless you can see any obvious ones. Also, trust me, this is not the most back ass scaling we've used in already accepted profiles.
 
How can you assume LK is an average DS without reason? Considering her capabilities and the weapon she had, what makes you so sure that an average DS is that capable? That logic doesn't work at all if you think about it. Raijin isn't as relevant as Kintoki or Raikou, so why would he be given more attention? A strong character isn't necessarily going to be given focus, and it's not like Nasu writes like that, so assuming Raijin is super weak or strong or whatever is pretty strange.

Another flaw is that by your logic, Raikou would be comparable to the Lion King. Which is frankly hilarious considering the feats LK has compared to Raikou in her appearances.

Comparable concepts and sword skills =/= Munenori clashing with either of them would cause the same thing to happen. Acting like this is the norm rather than a specific one-off circumstance is very illogical and doesn't make sense. It's not like Musashi post Shimosa in LB1 was using anything like this "Infinite Speed" vs monsters and Ivan either.
 
The point was more that Raikou said she would need to be in her living self to compare to Ragyou, and then saying that her living self should be above Kintoki, who should be comparable to his father somehow while alive.

The problem with this is, again, that is completely wrong. Showcasing the power of his father, that is the thunder and hail and all that good stuff in his NP, doesn't translate smoothly at all into "yeh he should have the same level of power as his father while alive". Power in this context doesn't mean destructive potential, it literally means power, as in the lightning power of a thunder god.

Just to reiterate, this is like we decided to scale Karna to Surya because he shows the power of his lineage to a Sun God in his Mana Burst Flames. And no, I am not putting Karna's rating while alive into doubt, I am putting into doubt whether THIS is the rationale that you would expect to hold up or be reasonable to use.
 
RegisNex1232 said:
How can you assume LK is an average DS without reason? Considering her capabilities and the weapon she had, what makes you so sure that an average DS is that capable? That logic doesn't work at all if you think about it. Raijin isn't as relevant as Kintoki or Raikou, so why would he be given more attention? A strong character isn't necessarily going to be given focus, and it's not like Nasu writes like that, so assuming Raijin is super weak or strong or whatever is pretty strange.
Another flaw is that by your logic, Raikou would be comparable to the Lion King. Which is frankly hilarious considering the feats LK has compared to Raikou in her appearances.

Comparable concepts and sword skills =/= Munenori clashing with either of them would cause the same thing to happen. Acting like this is the norm rather than a specific one-off circumstance is very illogical and doesn't make sense. It's not like Musashi post Shimosa in LB1 was using anything like this "Infinite Speed" vs monsters and Ivan either.
Click to expand...
Because... she is never said to be? I thought that was pretty clear. Its not like she has become some grand Goddess like Arjuna Alter or Zeus or anything like that. We went with her being an average divine spirit because she is never, not once, to be particularly weak or strong for a Goddess. They repeatedly hype up Kintoki by saying he has the strength of a thunder god and the like. If it was a shitty thunder God, or a particularly powerful one, it would have been stated. We didn't assume he was super weak or strong, that's the point. He is only notable in so far that he was the parent of Kintoki.

Living Raikou, not servant Raikou. We know Living Raikou is stronger than even her amped Rider self, so you can't use anti-feats from servant Raikou to disprove the strength of Living Raikou.

The reason they entered the void against eachother is because their comparable yet contradictory concepts/phenomena clashed. Yagyu's is of the same nature as theres. I would like you to screenshot and link me who said that infinite speed was the norm for them, and not when they are at the very peak of their art and clashing with eachother to enter this void like state. I haven't seen anyone claim that, and if they did, then I will respond and debunk the competely redicules claim, that Musashi and Kojiro, as normal servants, are walking around with infinite speed all the time. If no one has, then this is a massive strawman. Yagyu's concept is contrasted against Musashi's in the same way Musashi's concept is contrasted with Kojiro.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

TyphonEX
  • Locked
Fate/Extra CCC p&a cleanup (Part 1?)
2
Replies
57
Views
4K
LephyrTheRevanchist
LephyrTheRevanchist
  • Locked
Nasuverse Multiverse and Throne of Heroes
Replies
7
Views
964
Huesito88
Huesito88
Floxiaaa
Fate character tier adjustment
2
Replies
56
Views
4K
Floxiaaa
Floxiaaa
EldemadeDityjon
  • Locked
Nasuverse Speed Check Part 1
2
Replies
68
Views
6K
Donatien
Donatien
  • Locked
The One You Shouldn't Have Killed CRT
Replies
24
Views
1K
Perequeliri993
Perequeliri993
Back
Top