FGO Shimosa Revisions

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

The point was more that Raikou said she would need to be in her living self to compare to Ragyou, and then saying that her living self should be above Kintoki, who should be comparable to his father somehow while alive.
The problem with this is, again, that is completely wrong. Showcasing the power of his father, that is the thunder and hail and all that good stuff in his NP, doesn't translate smoothly at all into "yeh he should have the same level of power as his father while alive". Power in this context doesn't mean destructive potential, it literally means power, as in the lightning power of a thunder god.

Just to reiterate, this is like we decided to scale Karna to Surya because he shows the power of his lineage to a Sun God in his Mana Burst Flames. And no, I am not putting Karna's rating while alive into doubt, I am putting into doubt whether THIS is the rationale that you would expect to hold up or be reasonable to use.

That is part of it, yes, but not all of it

He is literally wielding the divine weapon of his father, and although you can make the excuse that they would be weakened in his servant form, the actual weapons of his father have no reason to be weakened whatsoever while they are in their prime.

Nice, because that is the exact same situation I claimed before, obviously. Mana burst is the exact same a divine weapon, especially since one is relient on the power of the user an the other isn't. If that was the rational I had used, then it would have been stupid, good thing it isn't close to the same thing as what I claimed.

 

[RegisNex1232]

Lion King isn't compared to any DS, but that doesn't automatically mean she's average or comparable to Raijin, especially when she has something like Rhongomyniad. There's a big hole in this line of thought, and nothing is being said that answers this point. As for Raijin, his power is unknown as well, so you have essentially nothing to scale to? "Oh, X character is even stronger when they're alive!" isn't exactly logic or proof when you don't know how strong they are unlike say Adam matching Ivan's mammoth or Ivan compared to Zeus.

Again, assuming one-off situations are automatically applicable to other characters who haven't shown such capabilities is a bit puzzling. We have no way of knowing if that fight scenario in Shimosa can be replicated, or that it is in any way combat usable, given it only occurred due to specific circumstances.

 

[Creaturemaster971]

... Except it is, Zero Musashi is the one with the eyepatch that has the slightly changed NP animation.

But Shimosa/Zero Musashi is human, not a summonable servant. Someone told me that summonable Musashi is her as an inexperienced swordsman, not when she can reach Zero.

 

[Zel97]

But Shimosa/Zero Musashi is human, not a summonable servant. Someone told me that summonable Musashi is her as an inexperienced swordsman, not when she can reach Zero.

Wait is this not true? Im fairly certain the musashi in our chaldea is different from thr one in shimousa

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

You do know that the whole point of her getting an updated NP, that she keeps, is to signify the fact that she achieves Zero, right? You could summon Bedivere with his airgetlem arm despite losing it and despite his soul being completely burned out - there's more or less nothing stopping them from letting normal Musashi's Servant self get "updated" once Musashi reaches Zero. The only way she doesn't change is if you don't do Shimosa at all.

Wielding his father's drums doesn't equate him being as powerful. We have literally no clue how his father's drum work except the fact they gain more power as Kintoki makes them turn in a specific class. And it is indeed a perfect example because that has never been a thing. You literally see in Medb's summer profile that she uses Caladbolg but, and I quote, "As expected, its power have decreased compared to when Fergus himself uses it, but its flexibility, adaptability have improved in exchange.".

Edit: Again, just... literally see when she is gonna rayshift but before she goes she cuts Ivan's trunk. Is the literal very same animation that gets added to Musashi's NP when she achieves Zero in Shimosa.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

Lion King isn't compared to any DS, but that doesn't automatically mean she's average or comparable to Raijin, especially when she has something like Rhongomyniad. There's a big hole in this line of thought, and nothing is being said that answers this point. As for Raijin, his power is unknown as well, so you have essentially nothing to scale to? "Oh, X character is even stronger when they're alive!" isn't exactly logic or proof when you don't know how strong they are unlike say Adam matching Ivan's mammoth or Ivan compared to Zeus.
Again, assuming one-off situations are automatically applicable to other characters who haven't shown such capabilities is a bit puzzling. We have no way of knowing if that fight scenario in Shimosa can be replicated, or that it is in any way combat usable, given it only occurred due to specific circumstances.

We are only really comparing them to her casual attacks anyway. She's just a divine spirit, and is never called a notably powerful one nor a notably weak one. If she was notably weak, then we would have been able to summon them into Chaldea. If she was notably strong, then there was no way Chaldea would have beaten her, since that would be above their paygrade. Raijin is unotable, hence we can scale him to others that are unotable, that's what we can scale them to. I'd like to get a screenshot of anyone who claimed it was just X character is stronger when they were alive to determine an exact level of power. If not, that's a pretty big missrepresentation of the points being made. Either way, we went with this cuz it was the easiest, but we can just scale them above Dragons or elementals if you prefer that means of scaling

Damn, its almost like there was more context to it than that. We know exactly why that situation came about, and Yagyu's concept has been compared in a similar way. I hope I missunderstood your claim, because I'm pretty sure you just said we didn't know if an ability they used in combat against eachother was usable in combat. Did I get that right or have I missed your case?

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

You do know that the whole point of her getting an updated NP, that she keeps, is to signify the fact that she achieves Zero, right? You could summon Bedivere with his airgetlem arm despite losing it and despite his soul being completely burned out - there's more or less nothing stopping them from letting normal Musashi's Servant self get "updated" once Musashi reaches Zero. The only way she doesn't change is if you don't do Shimosa at all.
Wielding his father's drums doesn't equate him being as powerful. We have literally no clue how his father's drum work except the fact they gain more power as Kintoki makes them turn in a specific class. And it is indeed a perfect example because that has never been a thing. You literally see in Medb's summer profile that she uses Caladbolg but, and I quote, "As expected, its power have decreased compared to when Fergus himself uses it, but its flexibility, adaptability have improved in exchange.".

Was... this top part in response to me? Either way, I don't think we have any anti-feats for this musashi since the one that showed up in LB1 is from before she died at the end of Shimosa

Are you implying that his father's weapons that he uses for combat are dead ass weaker than his physical attacks? I don't think we need to know much about them except to know that they are at least relative to in power to the god that uses them in combat. Living Kintoki had access to the bike with the drums as well, and living Raikou scales above the strength of that version of alive Kintoki. Do you actually think that getting a similar Mana Burst, which is an ability almost totally tied to its user's strength, is the same as recieving a weapon that is not tied to its user's strength? Medb is a servant, so that is not the same situation. We are talking about the alive version who fights with the exact same weapons that his Father does, and unlike servant summoned versions of these weapons, one dude handing another dude a weapon does not suddenly change the power of that weapon.

 

[RegisNex1232]

Again, we know how strong LK is. We have no idea how strong either Raijin or Living Raikou are. So using pure guesswork to estimate Yagyuu's strength when there are two unknowns in this scaling chain is pretty strange. Normally you'd scale people to those they've matched and if they have feats, not vague featless characters.

Again, we don't know it can be replicated all the time (or even at all) by Swordmasters, let alone by Servants, and pretending that it is and that Yagyuu can do so as well vs any of them without strong evidence is strange.

 

[Makkurona]

Actually i would say that the Lion King is a strong DS as in summer Melt commented that she is strong and fearsome, as well was the one mainly responsible into making the whole Las Vegas thing to entrap Tenma Musashi, so yeah she can be notably strong. But this is summer, so you can take it with a grain of salt

 

[RegisNex1232]

Musashi doesn't die in Shimosa since she sends you a letter in the ending later.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

Was to creature and Zel. And no, is not from before.

No, I am implying we have no reason to scale him to his father because of his weapons. And no, they would be relative in power to him if he was the one using them and there's no reason to assume otherwise. I have no clue what made you think he had access to the bike while alive. Except that is literally unrelated to being a Servant, her version is weaker compared to Servant Fergus. It has nothing to do with being Servants, she just isn't as powerful. And no, that is, quite honestly, the highest level of bullshit imaginable. These things aren't conceptual weapons that you just use and they do the same thing no matter what like Kiritsugu's Thompson Contender. They use a person's energy. You literally see Cu Alter use thrown Gae Bolg just like normal Cu, but since he puts so much magic on it and throws it so much harder, it is stronger. You can't blindly assume they are just comparable and then blindly assume that makes it comparable to Rhon when we have utterly no clue how they compare to each other. Is assumption upon assumption based on nothing but blind guesstimation.

 

[Dangai_Ichigo]

Servants improve when they get updated

 

[KnightOfSunlight]

Musashi doesn't die in Shimosa since she sends you a letter in the ending later.

Incorrect. She directly states that she had died and just revived as a servant, in another world. Furthermore, her eye is healed and fully functional in that message, which would not be the case if she were still human and alive.

Musashi died at the end of Shimosa. End of story.

If you want to use LB1 as a counter example to Musashi's rating, the Lostbelt was hardore rejecting her presence in the world, so much so that she couldn't do anything major at all, such as use her NP, or enter her Zero state. In fact, the second she does anything big (using her NP on Ivan) she is immediately ejected from the world and sent into another one. So it's not that she wasn't at that level of power, it's that she couldn't use anywhere near that power or she would be booted from the world.

Musashi aside and onto the other issue, we don't really need any cross-scaling to the living selves to get living Yagyu to the Lion King's level. A simple scaling chain proves that they are at least in comparable places.

Yagyu is vastly superior to Heroic Spirit Swordmasters, so much so he instills terror in them. HSS are superior to Pre-Zero Musashi by her own admission, who Douman directly states to have more strength than most servants. So Living Yagyu is >>> HSS > Pre-Zero living Musashi > Most Servants.

Lion King Artoria is vastly superior to the Blessed Knights of the Round, who are superior to Bedivere, who is directly stated to be an A-rank servant, meaning he is above most servants. So Lion King is >>> Blessed Knights of the Round > Bedivere > Most Servants

This Raijin argument is not only fruitless and pointless, but also hinges on scaling a minor god to the literal weakest possible Divine Spirits in all of the franchise because they are both Divine Spirits. This is utterly illogical downplay, and saying it is anything else is deliberate ignorance. Euyale and Stheno are both complete and utter outliers as far as divine spirits go, to scale anything to them because that thing is a Divine Spirit is the same as scaling Goku down to Hercule because Hercule is a martial artist too.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

Uhhh... There's no entering a Zero state. That's not a thing. Zero is just a state of being, that's like saying you can't you can't count to 3 because your body is weak. And she was already disappearing, that's the entire reason she tried something before leaving as you can see the light effects on her.

And that is a terrible comparison of scaling chains. Bedivere is below the other Round Knights as a normal person, and comparable to them with Airgetleam, so already you started off terribly. Then there's the fact that we have no clue how much they scale above their respective people, just that they scale up, so again guesstimation based on absolutely nothing.

And no, using Euryale and Stheno works. Being a Divine Spirit is a state of being, is not something you train.

 

[KnightOfSunlight]

Musashi has to deliberatly enter Zero as a servant. Her living self doesn't, but her servant self does.

Bedivere is still outdone even with Airgetlam, and requires assistance from Mash, Gudao, and the Hassans to overcome the Blessed Knights. And we do have an idea of how far the Knights are below Lion king, since all of them express fear of her power in some way.

And okay, glad to know Ishtar is 10-C. Glad to know every divine being is now 10-C, because two Divine Spirits, who are expressly stated to be the absolute weakest of their kind, are at that level. But this argument is pointless anyhow.

 

[FuuHouHou]

Well

 

[KnightOfSunlight]

If you don't believe me about the Zero state, here's something. Musashi would be literally invulnerable throughout the entire lostbelt if she didn't need to enter it, as per these materials:

https://www.reddit.com/r/grandorder...shi_miyamotos_servant_profile_from_fategrand/

But of course, she isn't. Because she can't enter it.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

When was this a thing and where?

No, he doesn't. You are free to show where. All the trouble in Camelot was because Mordred could spam an NP, Gawain is not comparable to a normal Servant when he has Numeral of the Saint(which was all the time) and Lancelot... is Lancelot? He outskills everyone that ain't Galahad massively. In physical ability he was comparable. Or are you REALLY gonna argue "Bedivere isn't comparable to Mordred because he can't overcome her NP Spamming, an NP stronger than she and he is normally"?

Are you really gonna use such a terribly bad strawmen? The point isn't that they are 10-C, the point is that their power is all over the place. If you understood so little of what the point was, you can just say so.

And no, "this person should have no trouble if they were this stronk" is not an argument. Taking a description saying she would be invincible "so all of this shouldn't have happened" is not an argument. Not only are you taking that at face value, her very profile says nothing about having to "enter" Zero. Are you really arguing "it has to be turned on otherwise she would have kicked everyone's ass"?

 

[KnightOfSunlight]

"Terribly bad strawman"

I believe it is actually called "Reduction ad Absurdum" or "Reduction to Absurdity". I reduced your argument to it's absolute base point (Divine Spirits scale to each other regardless) and took it to the logical extreme. Were it a strawman, I would have attacked an argument you had not actually made, when the argument you have made is illogical for the purposes of scaling.

Frankly put, absolutely nobody scales to Stheno and Euryale. They are such weak and minor divine spirits that normal humans can kill them. To reduce any divine spirit to their level is absolutely absurd, as absolutely no divine spirit should be as weak as they are unless we have irrefutable proof of so.

And yes, when a person is actively being weakened by the world they are in, when they explicitly cannot use something because of said weakening, and when they are in all other material shown to be able to use something that they do not, we can safely assume either massive PIS, or that they must activate said thing.

Fundamentally put, with everything we know about Nothingness/Voidless, Musashi would have been fully invincible in that section of the story were it inherent to her being. However, she isn't, meaning either A. there is a massive segment of PIS and we cannot use this for either side, or B. she must activate the form and it is not inherent. So eithe LB1 is utterly unusable for the simple fact that Musashi should be full invulnerable via Nothingness, or she simply must activate the ability and could not use it due to the World's rejection of her.

Furthermore, even if we only use Gawain, we can still safely use my suggested scaling chain, because even with Numeral of the Saint active, he never once implies he is stronger than the Lion King, and actively implies he is far weaker than her.

I apologize for my somewhat rude sarcasm earlier. That was uncalled for, and it's my mistake.

 

[RegisNex1232]

We can't use LK as someone to scale to without actual people who are comparable to her via feats and statements, not pure hype or fanfiction. Considering Raijin has no feats and we have no idea how strong Living Raikou or Kintoki are, there's no scaling chain that actually works, unless you want to put in inflated stats for no reason. So show that LK is comparable to Raijin with actual evidence, not just fancy words.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

Ah yes, character statements within the same context are my favorite form of "fanfiction." Dude, we scale Dragons, Divine Beasts, Various Phantasmal species, Dead Apostles, decently competent mages, and far more, all within basically the same kind of scaling we are doing here. You having "no idea" how powerful living Raikou and Kintoki are after we provided a scaling chain right here, is willful ignorance (because I know you, and you are smart enough to follow this), and we even provided a second form of scaling. The reasoning we used is no more inflated then us scaling decently competent but otherwise un notable mages to loosely the same level, and if it is then have at the massive revisions that will be required. You know what, just as a favor to you, I'll even support the downgrade to all mages given a tier based on this scaling, if you decide to make this thread. If logical arguments and power scaling based in lore are just "fancy words" to you, then oh boy, I guess next to everyone on this wiki is just passing around "fancy words" all the time, aren't they?

 

[RegisNex1232]

Considering you haven't shown anything that suggests LK = Raijin = Living Raikou/Kintoki = Munenori, I'm not inclined to entertain irrelevant posts that don't prove this argument. There's nothing given that suggests the above power scaling, so why even propose it at all?

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

I haven't seen a single person claim that everyone on that list is the exact same in power, if they have, then they are wrong. I'm not sure why anyone would try to prove a post they did not claim. What we did, was claim that, through the same form of scaling we use for every other set of characters and species in the nasuverse, prove that they are somewhat relative in power. Idk why they would propose that they are all equal in power, you should ask them, because I haven't seen a single person do that. If you don't feel the need to continue to respond to this "irrelevant" thread, then by all means, don't waste your time. We'll continue to discuss these revisions in your absence

 

[Makkurona]

So we are arguing about Raijin being comparable to LK, Munenori or Raikou? Well, trying to compare Raijin is quite a loose thing since he is a major Shinto god and in irl myth is brother to Amaterasu. Not really an accurate way to compare it, but Nasuverse usually follows this irl myth scaling.

Though, let's try another perspective. Arjuna and Karna are kids from Indra and Surya. Indra we can at least roughly estimate his power using several known DS like Saraswati through Meltryllis or the indian Servants themselves. (Though tbh this would yield another 2-A result as living Karna is 2-A and Raijin is kinda of Shinto'd Indra in Fate because Raikou using Indra's Vajra as Lancer).

Using Lion King as standard for measuring DS scaling is not very useful, as her power wasn't compared to any Divine Spirit known. So you can say she is out of the standard power scaling for Divine Spirits.

 

[RegisNex1232]

The AP for his living self has a kinda complicated scaling chain, but I'll try to break it down in an understandable way. Raikou and Shuten say that, if they wanted to defeat Yagyu, they would need to power of their living selves. Living Raikou scales above living Kintoki, due to being his master. Both Berserker and Rider Kintoki are repeatedly stated to have the strength/power of a Thunder God, and to have inhereted the strength of his dad. While they are refering to his NP, his living self should be at least as powerful physically, and his NP requires his monstrous strength to use anyway.

His Dad, Raijin, isn't that notable of a divine spirit or Thunder God, so it is reasonable to scale him to another neither notably powerful nor notably weak divine spirit. Some of the Nasu supports and I talked it over and we decided that the most reliable means of scaling would be to the Lion King. While she is a full blown divine spirit, she isn't that notable as one power wise. Therefore, Living Yagyu would be physically on par with the Lion King.

Apparently this is supposed to be a decent argument with evidence, when the only reasons it is being proposed are that one, Living Raikou is stronger than Kintoki due to being his master (being someone's master =/= being equally strong), two, Living Raikou is as strong as Raijin (this is stated nowhere and is a follow up to the first point) and finally three, Raijin is an average DS, as is the LK, therefore LK = Raijin (again unsubstantiated).

I'm surprised people haven't exactly noticed the lack of evidence in this argument that only relies on assumptions you can't prove one way or another. Generally profiles are meant to be more than "I feel like they're that strong, so that's what I'll put down.".

 

[John985]

(Though tbh this would yield another 2-A result as living Karna is 2-A and Raijin is kinda of Shinto'd Indra in Fate because Raikou using Indra's Vajra as Lancer).

Raijin is not Indra, its gozu tennou. Read the mats of Raiko.

The Diamond Pounder of Gozu Tennou ― also known as the Oriental Deity Taishakuten (Indra) ― namely, a Vajra ― the ultimate weapon of the gods made from sacred sacral bones ― comes down from the skies and annihilates all the enemies————Because of this Noble Phantasm, Raikou's Class ultimately gets to be established as Lancer at this occasion. Its shape is that of a tokkosho[2], which is said to represent the single Tath─üt─ü, the substance of all things in creation as taught in the Vajrayana.

Arjuna: "That Noble Phantasm is father's…"
Rama: "That Noble Phantasm is…"

 

[Makkurona]

Yeah but this is for Raikou right? Then again, Living Raikou may not be the same as Living Arjuna. (Forgot the more known name for Gozu Tenno tho)

 

[Diinou_HotHead]

Bump?

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

Apparently this is supposed to be a decent argument with evidence, when the only reasons it is being proposed are that one, Living Raikou is stronger than Kintoki due to being his master (being someone's master =/= being equally strong), two, Living Raikou is as strong as Raijin (this is stated nowhere and is a follow up to the first point) and finally three, Raijin is an average DS, as is the LK, therefore LK = Raijin (again unsubstantiated).

I'm surprised people haven't exactly noticed the lack of evidence in this argument that only relies on assumptions you can't prove one way or another. Generally profiles are meant to be more than "I feel like they're that strong, so that's what I'll put down.".

Wait, you don't think Raikou is stronger than Kintoki? I mean, damn, I think you are the very first fate debater or fan I have met who thinks that. I can get some direct statements of Kintoki being scared of Raikou, in particular her strength, if you want but I would prefer not to have to dive through Onigashima again. I may go an alternate route of scaling for the same effect but it ultimately makes no difference. I said Living Raikou should be above Living Kintoki who should about on par due to gaining the strangth of his dad. I'm scaling Raijin the same way we scale basically every other class of being on the nasuverse, so if you have issue with that, then have a fun time creating a CRT to find new means of scaling for everyone else who uses similar logic.

It requires no more assumptions than the other race/type of being scaling we do. When we see a random divine or phantasmal beast, we don't immediately jump and assume it is massively powerful or notably weak. I'm just doing the same thing here with divine spirits, which should be treated as no different for anything else. If you consider scaling to be just "feeling like they are that strong," then I suppose that is what gets put on all profiles that isn't from raw statements and nothing more.

 

[RegisNex1232]

I haven't seen proof from you that Raikou > Kintoki (whether both are Servants or still alive) other than just saying she's his master. And the same applies to the rest of the scaling chain (Raijin and LK). You are expecting people to accept without anything other than theorycrafting and guessing how strong people are. This isn't logical in any way, shape or form, so I'm not sure why you seem to think that it is.

Hard to make reasonable assumptions without any knowledge of how strong some characters are without sounding like you just pulled some stuff out of your ass.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

Here are some scans that Kintoki needs to go 100% against Raikou to even have a chance of winning, I can get more if you want. We did show proof, the scans are still above. This isn't any more theory crafting than any of the other scaling we have. If the form of scaling used for Dead Apostles, Heroic Spirits, Divine Beasts, Phantasmal Beasts, Mages, and Demonic beasts, is not enough for you, then I don't think anything will be.

I'm not pulling it out of my ass any more than the scaling of other races is.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

I think we've pretty much reached an impass, so we should probably have staff look at it and vote, to come to a conclusion.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

That's completely and laughably wrong though. Nasu has quite directly compared DA and Servants before. There's no such comparison between Raikou and Kintoki's dad, there's no actual statement for Kintoki's dad at all, there's just relying on a pretty bad "weapon has got to be just as powerful no matter who uses it", and Divine Spirits and Gods are so variable in power level it is downright laughable.

Are you comparing this many variables to Nasu outright going "yeah they can fight, but DA are a bit weaker". Or you know, direct comparison to Ciel who we know can hunt DA at full power

 

[Makkurona]

Yeah i can agree with what Lance said. Power scaling between those eeeh... Entities(?) can be very variable. Though generally it can be said like that Servants > DA (though after SF, the difference between the two is not that far tbh), it's not always like that. So yeah, which is stronger at given time depends on their profile.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

That's completely and laughably wrong though. Nasu has quite directly compared DA and Servants before. There's no such comparison between Raikou and Kintoki's dad, there's no actual statement for Kintoki's dad at all, there's just relying on a pretty bad "weapon has got to be just as powerful no matter who uses it", and Divine Spirits and Gods are so variable in power level it is downright laughable.
Are you comparing this many variables to Nasu outright going "yeah they can fight, but DA are a bit weaker". Or you know, direct comparison to Ciel who we know can hunt DA at full power

Yes, he has, but they vary in power absurdly, yet we still scale un notably powerful ones to eachother. Kintoki uses the strength of his dad, as we have said, and he uses his weapons that in no way rely on the user's physical strength to use, unlike the example which you used which did rely on the user's physical strength (so they would not vary in power depending on who is using them, yet both of them found it useful), and then Kintoki makes reference to the fact he has to go completely full power just to have a chance (and since he is speaking from experience after not encountering Raikou prior to the event, we know this applies to his living self). Unless you wanna explain why weapons that don't rely on the user's physical strength would vary depending on the strength of the user, there isn't any issue with it, so just calling it laughable without explaining why doesn't work. Yes, divine spirits and gods vary greatly in power, that's why we are scaling un notably powerful divine spirits to other un notably powerful divine spirits, the same way we do with dragons and DA. There are DA who are absurdly more powerful than the ones we usually see, and there are those that are incredibly weaker, but we don't automatically jump and assume that a random DA is as powerful as Satsuki, nor do we automatically conclude they are as powerful as Blackmore or Zelretch. There are dragons that are a good bit weaker like the Colchis Dragon (who isn't even strong enough to be a decent threat to any decent servant, and if Medea would summon her she would only be brought up to mid tier according to Nasu), and there are absurdly more powerful dragons, but we don't scale to either of them, we just go with the un notably powerful ones. We are doing nothing different here. Nasu doesn't even specify which DA he is talking about either, so we just take moderately powerful ones and go with that. We don't take a absurdly weaker one, like Stheno, and we don't take absurdly powerful ones, like Quetz. We just took an un notably powerful one, one that isn't stated to be absurdly powerful, nor absurdly weak, and place them on the same level like we do with everything else like this

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

Yeah i can agree with what Lance said. Power scaling between those eeeh... Entities(?) can be very variable. Though generally it can be said like that Servants > DA (though after SF, the difference between the two is not that far tbh), it's not always like that. So yeah, which is stronger at given time depends on their profile.

So can dragons, divine beasts, dead apostles, servants (although at least we got strength ratings for this), demonic beasts, phantasmal creatures, etc. But we still do the same scaling with them, we just don't take those that are absurdly powerful or absurdly weak, and we don't assume that a random one we see is notably broken nor notably weak. its not that complicated

 

[RegisNex1232]

We still need more than assumptions to showcase that the scaling works, and that doesn't work here with the characters you've given us. DA vs Servants is like LancelotDuLacl said much better since there's a direct comparison given between characters from the author. No such thing is given to support this scaling chain (especially the important part of Raikou = Raijin = LK).

And please don't keep repeating that the wiki does this for everything else. The wiki and the people here are not infallible or perfect. They can very easily miss stuff and misjudge things due to bias or an imperfect understanding of the situation. Just because X was done before doesn't make it right or accurate, it just means that there might be more mistakes that people have overlooked in the scaling for other characters or that other characters have evidence to support such scaling that this specific example doesn't.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

We still need more than assumptions to showcase that the scaling works, and that doesn't work here with the characters you've given us. DA vs Servants is like LancelotDuLacl said much better since there's a direct comparison given between characters from the author. No such thing is given to support this scaling chain (especially the important part of Raikou = Raijin = LK).

We aren't assuming here any more than the other cases. He doesn't say which servants. He doesn't say which Dead Apostles. We just took an un notably powerful servant, and un notably powerful dead apostles and scaled between them. We know that Living Raikou is above Living Kintoki, and that Kintoki has the power of His dad, a divine spirit, while alive. We don't know what level divine spirit his dad is, so we just went and scaled an un notably powerful one like we did here.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

And please don't keep repeating that the wiki does this for everything else. The wiki and the people here are not infallible or perfect. They can very easily miss stuff and misjudge things due to bias or an imperfect understanding of the situation. Just because X was done before doesn't make it right or accurate, it just means that there might be more mistakes that people have overlooked in the scaling for other characters or that other characters have evidence to support such scaling that this specific example doesn't.

Of course it isn't infallible, but if this is flawed, then an overhaul of the entire scaling of the nasuverse is in order. Let's keep the scaling forms consistent, and then overhaul them all when the time comes. For example, if one thought we shouldn't be scaling servants and NP based on rank, then you shouldn't just create a profile that drops a servant at unknown when they have stat rankings, you should put them at their strength ranking and then change their stats when you overhaul the entire scaling

 

[RegisNex1232]

Or we could not use flawed scaling here, and then go about fixing the rest later? I don't understand why we should use flawed methods of scaling in the first place at all, it's not like every other verse goes about and does this. People usually put in evidence and clear links for support, which is generally preferred over here.