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Fate: 7-A Servants

DragonEmperor23

DragonEmperor23

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A lot of servants seem to be City+ downscaling from 7-A Servants that scale to 385 megatons. However, the baseline for 7-A is 100 megatons and the feat is almost four times that amount. My proposal is that the Servants that are City+ should be upgraded to 7-A, just lower in the tier than those who scale directly to the feat. This would also effect any non servants that scale to the City+ Servants.
 
Why do we even backscale from the Excaliblast feat

There's no way in heck someone like Cu or True Assassin are even 1/4 of the power of that.

Scratch that, why do we scale to the Excaliblast feat for the 7-A servants?
 
Because it was a weakened Excaliblast that Heracles deflected. He only has raw strength and x12 rez, and I really doubt it was his rez that let him slap away an Excaliblast.
 
Because other Servants are able to physically contend with Herc despite him eventually overwhelming them.

  • During the church fights in every route, Saber is able to block and fight Herc even though he overpowers her in short order without Archer's interference.
  • Assassin is able to fight and push back Herc as the MVP with Caster and Kuzuki's help despite only Caster actually being able to harm him.
  • Salter is able to match Herc when she gets A rank Strength.
  • UBW Saber also has the same stat and still doesn't just mow through Assassin despite his weaker Str.
  • Assassin has fought every Servant in the 5th war aside from Caster, True Assassin and Salter.
  • Saber and Rider clash numerous times in the Fate route.
  • Rider fights and damages Salter despite the latter taking numerous hits from Herc.
 
Iapitus The Impaler said:
Perhaps we should change them to Atlesst 7-B+, likely 7-A
Click to expand...
I disagree. Why would they be randomly a tier weaker than the people who made that feat when they aren't that much weaker and that feat is a decent amount into the tier?
 
Iirc Herc can take out most of them in a solid hit or 2 even if they can hold him off, so I am again going to push Atleast 7-B+, likely 7-A.

Since we dont know exactly how much they back scale and even within servants around the same level there can be significant difference. Such as the Hassan being around the same level, but not supposed to be able to be combat applicable, but keep up with skill anyway. The at least 7-B+, likely 7-A should allow enough range to be accurate
 
I don't really have much of an opinion either, although I'm fine with the alternative of putting likely 7-A.

Usually when I make a profile of characters that have fought 7-A's (like Hijikata or Red Hare), I tend to put either possibly higher or possibly 7-A for each respective case.

I don't mind likely 7-A but I'd like to see where everyone is at with this first in any case.
 
I mean, with the Hercules feat, he deflected the blast pretty easily right? That should put him a bit above it and being able to twoshot someone at 100 megatons when you're above 385 megaton and have a giant club makes sense. Besides, with the examples Blank said, they don't seem that be that far apart physically.
 
Let me remind you that all of the servants in Stay Night are combat applicable, even Hassan (give or take. He isnt supposed to be but tanks a few hits from lancer), but that is only due to skill on his part. This is not the case for all of the other servants in the verse even when around the same level. A ton of servants back scale to back scaling to back scaling and make up for AP differences with skill. A bigger range is the safe bet
 
So we can just figure out who scales to who. Can you give some examples of weak servants that make up for AP with skill?
 
I'll start with The Hassan. Most of them aren't supposed to be combat applicable but keep up with skill anyway. Assassin Shiki has E rank strength yet can keep up with higher servants, likely by the combo of skill and hax. Jack The Ripper keeps up with mordred, although mordred never lands a real hit jack blocks her attacks repeatedly. This is the case for many assassins, where only glancing blows hit them, but they block attacks and the like.

However, as I said. A lot of these people back scale to back scaling who up scale to back scaling. It is safer to just give a range that allows to not assume how much of keeping up was skill and how much was stats. Even things like Saber vs Diarmuid where they land no real strikes until Lancer pulls through and they spend most of the time using skill and blocks. We cannot underestimate how much of a servant fight comes out to skill over stats
 
Don't we give all servants with an A rank in STR mountain level? We just do the same thing for the characters that haven't fought directly with a 7-A.

" Despite having E- Rank Strength, she is strong enough to give other physically inclined Servants, such as Shielder, a serious challenge"

Since Mash is 7-A, wouldn't this make Servant Shiki 7-A as well? And I know she has the MeDoP but if she had used that on Mash it would've just killed her, not damage her.
 
We give them all mountain, but there is a MASSIVE range for the servants in 7-A. Again, up scaling to back scaling and vice versa. Hercules can shit on a bunch of other mountain levelers, and Asterios is superior to him but Hector can pierce him with his NP. Romulus is supposed to be far superior to most of the other Roman servants including Caesar (it is implied him losing to Nero was because he was holding back, which makes sense), and defeated Lancer Artoria with moderate difficulty, who ******* one shot Mordred casually and ripped through her armor like paper. Ruler Servants are supposed to be capable of taking on most any other servant, but very in power between themselves. Spartacus can one shot most other combat applicable servants even without Crying warmonger, even those on the level of Cu and Archer EMIYA. Jeanne can also block blows from Spartacus, and is comparable to her Alter form, who Archer of Shinjuku back scales from, who can engage in combat with Saber Alter who is physically superior or equal to Hercules.

Do you see the issue? The ranges between these people by metrics of one shots, back scaling, catagorical extremes, and various combinations of these things. The reason for this is the skill of Fate servants is world class. There are mountain level servants who can take out Country level beings with skill and tactics alone. The range of them is massive, but can keep up with eachother by almost raw skill alone. I made a small scaling chain above just to illustrate my point, and as you can see it loops back in on itself. Most of what I mentioned above was all within the mountain level range as well. Do you honestly think we could actually quantify where all these people stand without accounting for skill. Servant stats at least allow us to know that some of these people are a good bit lower than others.

As for your Shiki point: Potentially, but we never saw the battle. Knowing how Shiki fights in the show, it was probably mostly skill, but had the stats to at least block attacks.
 
Monarch Laciel said:
Neither do I

We don't exactly know how much weaker the Servants at 7-B+ are than the 7-As so idk.
Click to expand...
Kojiro's bjade was nearly broken after 3 direct blacks from Saber's blade
 
" There are mountain level servants who can take out Country level beings with skill and tactics alone. "

There's a difference between using pure skill and tactics to beat someone, and being able to tank their hits and hurt them back.

" Hercules can shit on a bunch of other mountain levelers, and Asterios is superior to him but Hector can pierce him with his NP."

Noble Phantasms are way stronger than a normal attack, being able to hurt a Servant with one is considered something most offensive noble phantasms can do, especially when Hector's noble phantasm is A rank. Something like that would even kill Hercules. (not permanently, but it would take a life or a few)

"Romulus is supposed to be far superior to most of the other Roman servants including Caesar (it is implied him losing to Nero was because he was holding back, which makes sense), and defeated Lancer Artoria with moderate difficulty, who ******* one shot Mordred casually and ripped through her armor like paper"

I don't see the problem here. That's just a generic scaling chain. Romulus is stronger than Lancer who is stronger than Mordred who is comparable to Saber who is comparable to Berserker.

"Jeanne can also block blows from Spartacus, and is comparable to her Alter form, who Archer of Shinjuku back scales from, who can engage in combat with Saber Alter who is physically superior or equal to Hercules."

Again, not really seeing a problem here. These people just scale to each other.
 
Schnee One said:
Monarch Laciel said:
Neither do I

We don't exactly know how much weaker the Servants at 7-B+ are than the 7-As so idk.
Click to expand...
Kojiro's bjade was nearly broken after 3 direct blacks from Saber's blade
Click to expand...
Alright, that's a good example of him being weaker. Saber's almost four times baseline 7-A and surviving 3 direct attacks is something a baseline could do.
 
"There's a difference between using pure skill and tactics to beat someone, and being able to tank their hits and hurt them back. "

Yes, but the servant who pulled this off isn't close to the most skilled saber servant in the verse, yet his skill was enough to pull out a victory regardless. My point is that skill here is incrdibly important and a range is necesary to be accurate

" Noble Phantasms are way stronger than a normal attack, being able to hurt a Servant with one is considered something most offensive noble phantasms can do, especially when Hector's noble phantasm is A rank. Something like that would even kill Hercules. (not permanently, but it would take a life or a few) "

I am aware. I tossed in the Hector thing just cuz it was in the mountain range, and I was more focussed on the Herc and Asterios

" I don't see the problem here. That's just a generic scaling chain. Romulus is stronger than Lancer who is stronger than Mordred who is comparable to Saber who is comparable to Berserker. "

Yes, its a scaling chain, which moves up leaps and bounds but are "In The Same Range." That's my point. The range at which servants on the same level can be is ******* massive. Hence why the large range is safer since even segnificanly weaker servants can keep up with skill. The latter part of the chain is important because it loops back around onto hercules.

You cut off the upper part where It circles back in on itself and, if we did this linearly, would be self contradictory. Hercules and Ruler Servants not ******* oneshotting every combat applicable servant they come across is itself important. Skill and the varying degrees of servant on the level of power is too inconsistent to not have a big enough range.
 
" Hercules and Ruler Servants not ******* oneshotting every combat applicable servant they come across is itself important. The latter part of the chain is important because it loops back around onto hercules.You cut off the upper part where It circles back in on itself and, if we did this linearly, would be self contradictory."

What do you mean? We get how strong Hercules is and you explained all Rulers weren't equal. Like you said, they're meant to be able to take down servants and you gave a scaling chain for why Jeanne would be 7-A.

" Yes, but the servant who pulled this off isn't close to the most skilled saber servant in the verse, yet his skill was enough to pull out a victory regardless. "

I don't really see how he pulled out a victory based on the information you're giving me. If a 7-A fought a 6-B, then even if that 7-A was so skilled that they managed to dodge every single attack the 6-B used, that 7-A would still not be able to harm the 6-B. Skill doesn't let you jump tiers, it can only take you so far.
 
" What do you mean? We get how strong Hercules is and you explained all Rulers weren't equal. Like you said, they're meant to be able to take down servants and you gave a scaling chain for why Jeanne would be 7-A. "

The Rulers are all comparable, and that doesn't invalidate Herc not one shotting Saber, Cu, and all the other dudes they fought except Saber Alter. Basically Jeanne, Jeanne Alter, Saber Alter, and Herc all should be one shotting other combat applicable servants in servants.

Idk go talk to Fafnir. Dude lost to Saber. Point is, skill goes a long way
 
" Idk go talk to Fafnir. Dude lost to Saber. Point is, skill goes a long way "

Dude, that's a major outlier for Siegfried then. Fafnir's stronger than Lord Chaldeas and Luminosité Eternelle at the same time. Luminosité Eternelle tanked a 6-C explosion from Spartacus and Lord Chaldeas tanked a direct Excalibur Morgan blast which is stronger than a normal Excalibur blast which is comparable to Spartacus's 6-C explosion. Not to mention, Siegfried killed Fafnir while he was alive and that was the kill that made him known as a Dragon Slayer, so he didn't even have the Anti Dragon buff back then. Sieg's not beating that with pure skill, that's ridiculous.
 
"The Rulers are all comparable, and that doesn't invalidate Herc not one shotting Saber, Cu, and all the other dudes they fought except Saber Alter. Basically Jeanne, Jeanne Alter, Saber Alter, and Herc all should be one shotting other combat applicable servants in servants. "

Saber's already 7-A though, and plenty of servants scale to her who scale to each other. They're all 7-A, some are just stronger than others.
 
I am talking about nerfed saber, not the one who is 7-A obviously. Yes, they are stronger than others, but when the scaling chain varies so much by multiple levels of one shots then it is likely a few are gonna drop bellow a mere 3x difference. Hence why they should be "At least City+, Likely Mountain." When going above the scaling chain it can be far above just the multiple of 4x, then down the way should get easily that far too.

" Dude, that's a major outlier for Siegfried then. Fafnir's stronger than Lord Chaldeas and Luminosité Eternelle at the same time. Luminosité Eternelle tanked a 6-C explosion from Spartacus and Lord Chaldeas tanked a direct Excalibur Morgan blast which is stronger than a normal Excalibur blast which is comparable to Spartacus's 6-C explosion. Not to mention, Siegfried killed Fafnir while he was alive and that was the kill that made him known as a Dragon Slayer, so he didn't even have the Anti Dragon buff back then. Sieg's not beating that with pure skill, that's ridiculous. "

He did it through skill and abusing weak points iirc. something along those lines.
 
Schnee One said:
I agree with possibly 7A or solid 7A but I don't think 7B+ is accurate
Click to expand...
Let me ask you this. Do you think the difference between a dude that can shit on other 7-As and a combat inapplicable servant who isn't even supposed to be able to fight 7-As is more than 4x? If yes, then a few could potentially be in 7-B+. If Yes, then all the servants need to be solidly 7-A
 
" I am talking about nerfed saber, not the one who is 7-A obviously. Yes, they are stronger than others, but when the scaling chain varies so much by multiple levels of one shots then it is likely a few are gonna drop bellow a mere 3x difference. Hence why they should be "At least City+, Likely Mountain." When going above the scaling chain it can be far above just the multiple of 4x, then down the way should get easily that far too."

It's not like it starts from Hercules and trickles down. Lancer Artoria and Romulus should be comparable to Hercules if not stronger. There aren't really that many oneshots to be had. The weaker servants aren't weaker to the point where they would be under baseline 7-A, especially when they're not that far apart from each other. Nero, who is 7-B right now, can beat Gawain who is 7-A for being explicitly comparable to Saber.

" He did it through skill and abusing weak points iirc. something along those lines. "

Honestly, skill doesn't matter when your opponent could kill you just by breathing at you.
 
" It's not like it starts from Hercules and trickles down. Lancer Artoria and Romulus should be comparable to Hercules if not stronger. There aren't really that many oneshots to be had. The weaker servants aren't weaker to the point where they would be under baseline 7-A, especially when they're not that far apart from each other. Nero, who is 7-B right now, can beat Gawain who is 7-A for being explicitly comparable to Saber. "

It does. And nah, Romulus and Lancer Artoria are probably higher by a good bit. All it takes to be under baseline 7-A is 4x. That is easily enough, since 2x isn't that much of a difference in combat. The difference between a servant who ***** on other 7-As and a servant who shouldn't even be able to reasonably fight 7-As should definitely be greater than 4x. I'm actually pretty sure Nero should be 7-A anyway, and I may make a thread on that.

I know that a dragon can kill you just by breathing, but that is how skilled he is. You get the point then.
 
Nero Bride is 7-B too, but she could stall Cu Alter who is a physical beast that's A rank STR even before the grail buff he had while fighting her. FSN Archer is 7-B too but he could destroy Illya's Degen when Degen could destroy Rin's barrier who could penetrate Hercules's Godhand.

" I know that a dragon can kill you just by breathing, but that is how skilled he is. You get the point then. "

No, I meant that as in Siegfried's skill does not matter because at any point in the fight Fafnir could have breathed and nuked the area and killed Sieg.
 
I know. That is one of the reasons I think Nero should be 7-A. FSN Archer has the advantage of being able to spawn stronger NP, I would need more context.

" No, I meant that as in Siegfried's skill does not matter because at any point in the fight Fafnir could have breathed and nuked the area and killed Sieg. "

He actually did do that, but he countered by hiding under him or behind him.
 
"John985 said:
This is where Berserker deflect Excalibur.
https://lparchive.org/Fatestay-night/Update 115/
Click to expand...
Thank you.

"
"CALIBUR!!!!"
Berserker blocks the holy sword that breaks the ground.
"Oh."
…The silver armor collapses.
Turning all her remaining magical energy into light, Saber is on her knees.
In front of her is Berserker, still in full shape."

So, the feat of Berserker blocking it is really casual. This means there's more room in 7-A as Berserker seems barely effected by the 385 megaton attack. @Iap, do you still think it's too small of a gap?
 
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