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Fairy Tail Revision

LordLuminous

LordLuminous

178
3
Attacking Potency:

Brandish's feat is not an outlier "hax" because in Fairy Tail it is noted that pulling off powerful spells of high stature takes a great feat. If Brandy can shrink down an island easily, it can't be an outlier. She has to be atleast Island Level. In FT it's established that using Magic so extensively takes immense strength (like for example, Lucy with her keys and why summoning three spirits is considered so great; because it takes immense power), so if Brandy can shrink an entire island (be it big or small), it is still an Island feat and that makes the rest of the Spriggan comparable to her. and by extension, those the fight and exchange blows with the Spriggan should also be considered atleast Island level.

Besides, even if you guys don't agree with the above, Brandish's hax feat should still extend to the Spriggans, because that's how she is at their level and how the other Spriggan can equally match her in a fight.


Speed:

It is safe to assume that the Dragons that the Wizard Guilds fought in the GMG arc must be comparable in speed to that of Igneel, Grandeeney, Metalicana, Weisslogia and Skiadrum; it only makes sense considering they're all Dragons. I'm sure that they can fly at similar speeds to the Dragons that disappeared 14/15 years ago. So if Dragon Slayer are able to hit them and dodge them, then the Dragon Slayers have to be Massively Hypersonic as well (and again- extending to those they fight after those events and those who are on their level)

~

Hopefully this made sense. My grammar is not perfect, so if you need a clarification on what I meant, then comment please.
 
Bransdish is debatable

About the speed, dragons like Atlas Flame and Motherglare should be scaled from Metalicana and Grandeeney
 
LordLuminous said:
Why do you suppose that the other Dragons aren't?
Click to expand...
Well, that's irrelevant

I mean, if Natsu were equal in speed to Atlas (who should comparable to Metalicana and Grandeeney) and Gajeel and others DS are comparable to Natsu, thwn the others dragons are comparable too
 
I doubt the wiki would allow that. There is no evidence yet. Besides, "Country Demolisher Brandish" is just a title. I doubt it would be good evidence even if it were true.
 
You are just making vague assumptions with that dragon slayer paragraph.

and we don't scale hax abilities to others.
 
And how are they vague? Atlas Flame and Motherglare are already Massively Hypersonic.

It already says on the profile itself "Speed: Massively Hypersonic (via this calc, should be comparable to the rest of the dragons)"

A shrinking hax is different from a standard hax, especially in FT. When the strength of the hax is measured by how much you can dish out in the first place, similarly to Brandish's magic.
 
The very feat that put the dragons at that speed was one that left the fairy tail members in a pinch, because they couldn't pull it off. If they were as fast as you claimed (and with your reasoning they would have been that fast at that point) then they could have done it without the dragons.

I also don't recall a particular case where one of the characters kept up with a dragon flying in the GMG. They kept up with the dragons on the ground, but their is a meaningful difference between a flying and a walking dragon I would think.


To Brandish: Before even talking about scaling why is that calc even used? I thought back when it was about calculating the feat etc. it was agreed that Ribs version is the one that should be used, given the nature of Brandish's power. Was there some discussion I missed?
 
Well, let me rehash a reason that has been used before. The creator does not realize how fast her made his own characters.

Oh and here http://www.**********.com/fairy-tail/333/12 You can see Sting fighting Scissor Runner.

http://www.**********.com/fairy-tail/331/8 Wendy can hit Zirconis (and by some extension, so can Mira.)

http://www.**********.com/fairy-tail/330/6 Laxus hit Atlas Flame

http://www.**********.com/fairy-tail/330/12 Cobra/Erik attacking the Rock Dragon.


And as for Brandish, I don't know what you're talking about. What happened in this discussion.
 
" The creator does not realize how fast her made his own characters."

That is a thing that happens, but the reason powerscaling is even a thing is that an author still has a certain hierachy in his mind. In other words he doesn't know how strong each character is, but how powerful the characters are in relation to each other.

The dragons in that arc weren't even overly serious IIRC and most of the fighting was on the ground not agile air battles or anything.

Fact is in later arcs Dragons could perform feats that the mages weren't capable of at that time, so scaling like this doesn't particulary make sense.


About the brandish thing: The discussion was about that Potential energy of the whole enlarged island can not be used given that we are talking about grwoing magic not lifting magic. I am not sure of brandish growing / shrinking things was even shown to change its weight (which is what would be the relevant part here), but either way since the island was grown from its bottom and not the badrock grown upwards PE for the whole thing is actually not useable, but only for the lifting of the island itself, which is what ribs calc refelexts upon.
 
If I recall, doesn't the fact that they are even to land blows on the enemy constitute as grounds to being at that speed? I believe this was done in Tifa Lockhart's case because she could keep up with Loz in that battle before she lost (even when it is established that he got serious at the final moments of their battle that he could outspeed her, she is still FTL.)

It's certain that the Dragons are much more powerful than the Mages. But I feel like putting them at a similar speed does not change that fact that Dragons are stronger.

Besides that, your argument on powerscaling seems more toward Attacking Potency than Speed. It's evident that the Dragons Slayers are able to dodge attacks from them as well as attack them. If the Dragons are as fast as stated, how are they being attacked in the first place? It should be noted that the Dragons were out to kill everyone at the behest of Future Rogue. So they were serious enough when trying to kill their opponents that they were fighting.


As for the Brandish thing, I'm not sure if I truly understand the problem, but if this fact might be of some use to that: when she shrunk Marin down to miniature size, she could still pick him up rather easily. So the weight must have been altered in accordance to size. I still think that shrinking an Island should not be considered easy because how Magic works in FT.
 
No, it's very clear that the feat the dragons did to destroy FACE was above and beyond the other characters at that point. Scaling them is nonsensical.

As for Brandish, her calc indeed relies upon a shift in weight which has never been proven. Picking up Marin doesn't prove his weight changed. Fairy Tail characters are extremely strong. I have no doubt any of the Spriggan 12 can pick up a full grown man easily.
 
Why do I get the feeling you guys are thinking that if they do get scaled, the Mages would be able to par with a Dragon in terms of speed? Massively Hypersonic is a very wide range to begin with. We can assume that the Dragons can be faster than the Mages that they battle, (and even write in brackets that they can be faster than Humans) but the fact that they can be hit by Mages does not change. How does a Hypersonic entity attack a Massively Hypersonic entity? There is wide speed difference. If we are accustom to believe that speed can decide a battle by a "speedblitz" then why is that not the case in the GMG arc? If the Dragons are proven Massively Hypersonic, why aren't the Mages that can land blows on them be?

It would only seem logically if the weight of an object would shift because the size changes. That only seems logical. What proof is there that it doesn't? It is simple a hypothesis. Also, you should know that Brandish picked him up with her toe if that's any consolation.
 
Alakabamm said:
No, it's very clear that the feat the dragons did to destroy FACE was above and beyond the other characters at that point. Scaling them is nonsensical.
As for Brandish, her calc indeed relies upon a shift in weight which has never been proven. Picking up Marin doesn't prove his weight changed. Fairy Tail characters are extremely strong. I have no doubt any of the Spriggan 12 can pick up a full grown man easily.
Click to expand...
Brandish manipulates Mass though
 
The question wether the things changes mass or not isn't even relevant. Since the point at which she altered the size isn't known, we might as well assume she changed the size of the ground always at the point closest to her (which also is the only point that doesn't happen to shift relative to her).

In other words the size alteration magic didn't have to lift the parts it created itself, since it didn't necessarily moved the already created parts up, but just created/enlarged a new part on the top of them to lift the island, actually only the original island is moved. The rest is simply created / size altered in the place it stays for all we know.

Or to explain it differently it might be like a crane building itself does only lift its top part up not everytime the whole structure it stands on.
 
Its kinda hard to explain. The essence is that if you are using growing / enlargement magic you don't need to lift the weight of the part you enlarged, but only the weight of that which is on top of that part.

It isn't exactly as I meant, but lets think of the magic like the magic to create building blocks through magic. You start by creating a block and climb on it. Then you create a second bloack on the first and also climb on that one. Then you create a third block on the second and climb on that one and so on.

What would be the potential energy needed for this? Well the energy actually used is just the one necessary for yourself to climb that high. After all since the blocks (and their mass) was only created on top of the tower you didn't have to carry blocks with you when climbing on top of each block. So this method of building a tower and climbig on top of it requires much less energy than carrying each block up from the ground with you.

A similar principle applys to growing magic, wether it uses mass or not, just that instead of separate blocks one basically uses a fluent transition. So you actually don't have to carry the part that is enlarged, since the next part isn't necessarily made below what already is enlarged, but above that.
 
Before I begin trying to make sense to that explanation. Does anyone have any objections to the Speed argument?
 
Yes as already said they were not capable to perform even remotely on par with the dragons in later arcs, so the scaling doesn't make sense.

They fought the dragons on the ground, which isn't a dragons strong point when fighting and the dragons were not really all that serious actually, given that the opponents could hardly even damage them. We even have comments like this saying that they can usually not even see their movements.

So no scaling the mages from back then to the vastly superior dragons just for holding out against them, while the dragons are on the ground (as said, dragons are flying creatures and as such of a different speed in an air battle) just doesn't fit in the plot at all.
 
The fact that they were on the ground is debately moot and almost irrelevant. Since their speed is Massively Hypersonic they should have been able to blitz the Mages, but were not. As for seriousness, I already told you that the dragons were in for the kill at Future Rogue's orders - the only exception to this order was present Rogue. So this would mean that the Speed should apply in this case. And another thing, just because they on the ground, doesn't mean their speed drops in Mach. Their Speed should still been in the Massively Hypersonic area even when the argument of "they were on the ground" is applied.

As for not seeing through movements, again the Dragons can be faster, but that doesn't disapprove that the Dragon Slayers were still able to hit the Dragons for an extensive period of time. I've said it before, just because the Dragons are fast in movement doesn't mean putting Mages at a similar speed does not change that fact that Dragons are stronger or faster in movement. We can all agree that Dragons are faster than Mages, but if they were at a difference of Hypersonic to Massively Hypersonic, the Mages would have been speedblitzed in moments with no protest.

This would mean that they have to been somewhere close to Dragons otherwise it would not make sense. And that is that they are atleast Massively Hypersonic.
 
The only time dragons have ever shown that type of speed is in flight. You have no basis for talking about their speed on the ground.

Furthermore, linking together their ground and air speed is clearly wrong. The dragon slayers could not have even begun to take out all those faces in that time span. It was a hopeless situation. The dragons only solved it because they had speed unattainable to the mages on the ground. This is irrefutable.

Furthermore, human Acnologia just speedblitzed a mage that was >>>> than any mage that fought the dragons that came back. This is the same Acnologia that fought Igneel, possibly even weaker because of his lost arm.

Scaling speed like you are suggesting has no internal series logic and also ignores the important flight speed difference we advocate on this site (and OBD advocates as well).
 
Are you saying that their speed changes drastically in Mach just because they aren't flying? Mind you that while they are flying they were attacking and destroying FACEs across the country while flying around. I doubt that their fighting speed drops because they aren't exactly "moving" and are on the ground. While they are flying, they are also attacking, so that means that they attacking speed has to be Massively Hypersonic. It's the only reason that their speed is not mentioned as "Travel Speed"

It's not irrefutable. The creator doesn't know how fast he made his own characters. This is an accepted defence on this wiki. And even then, maybe it was a better explanation that the Dragons are moving at that speed then the Mages because that would have made no sense. They were all tired to begin with considering they spent their time fighting Tartaros and Mashima probably doesn't understand that his characters attacking Dragons prior put them at a higher speed level.

Again, the range for Massively Hypersonic is wide. I'm not saying put them at the same exact Mach as the Dragons. As for Human Acno speedblitzing, maybe their speed had not changed so drastically that they could keep up with Acno. As mentioned, Acno can be faster then them, that does not mean they can't be Massively Hypersonic.

My scaling speeds are only based on the profile, and even then, there is substantial proof that the Dragons' speed was not just travel speed.
 
It doesn't matter. The scaling logic is nonsensical. They required a minute of pre-emptive logic to win and the dragons speed was very clearly shown as superior to the regular mages. The fact that God Serena god owned hard just hammers that point in more.
 
It does matter. While they did require a pre-emptive logic to win, it does not discount that they were able to stand against the Dragons for an extensive period of time. A defence that is also accepted in this wiki. The fact that God Serena was beaten does not discount the fact that this feat is done in the GMG arc. Besides, if you take into account Serena's personality, he was being rather cocking. He probably underestimated Acno and that led to his downfall.
 
LordLuminous said:
Besides, if you take into account Serena's personality, he was being rather cocking. He probably underestimated Acno and that led to his downfall.
Click to expand...
He don't even saw Acnologia
 
No way dude. You're trying to do a second order scaling, which is scaling from the dead dragons to the future dragons to the dragon slayers. That's far less legitimate than straight up competing with the dragons that completed the feat and unacceptable once we consider that those same characters, who got even stronger than they were before, were useless against Face and not even in the same category as the dragons in terms of speed.
 
This wiki already established that the past dragons are comparable enough to the 5 Dragons in the present. Besides, how different could they be Igneel and the rest were not actually training?

Why do you find it so difficult to Speed-compare? It seems logical when you think about the scaling by how they were attacked. You make it sound like the Speed difference is like a Power difference. Those are two totally different things. They were not useless against FACE. You sound like you're having a hard time accepting that they can be comparable in the first place. - It is fair for you to think that, but when you added it all up, the Mages should atleast be around the speed of the Dragons. Not the same speed exactly, but somewhere there.
 
It tooks Wendy minutes at best to reach one FACE and they destroyed thousands across an entire country in that timespan. When the mages who were fighting realized that faces were all across the country, they did nothing because they couldn't. There's no justification for any sort of scaling to that.

Your argument is based on a second-hand comparison that ignores everything the manga showed.
 
It's not really, they attacked all the thousands of faces while flying through the continent.
 
Does "The creator doesn't understand how fast he made his character" mean nothing to you? Also, at the time Wendy had to go to FACE, it was at distance because only ONE had activated. It is later revealed that their was a "glitch" and it was meant spur out 3000 or so FACEs. You can't assume that the Dragons roamed the entire country to destroy the FACEs one at a time. This picture shows that they were mostly close by http://www.**********.com/fairy-tail/387/20 Furthermore, it is impossible to calcuate how far the FACE that Wendy went to was.

Second-hand scaling isn't wrong when it is done correctly. As for whether or not it ignores everything the manga showed is yet to be seen.
 
They didn't roam the entire country. The roamed the entire CONTINENT.

This is what the calc itself is based upon.

The FACES that appeared were confirmed to be 3000 by the person who activated them. Even the Magic Council staff estimated the number of active FACES to be above 2000. A map of the FACES being destroyed even shows them clearly being destroyed across the entire country and in a 1-by-1 fashion from each of the four dragons doing it.

Second hand scaling this type of feat to someone who took a good deal of time to barely cross a country at best when the dragons had no sweat over crossing a continent in that timespan is not really good scaling at all.
 
Continent* My bad.

However, the link I gave you also showed that some FACEs are together. Of course, it could be likely that they destroyed many 1-by-1, but the link can provide proof that some of them were together.

Are you sure? Happy was able to cross a continent in a matter of what it looked like were moments. It is never clearly shown how far exactly the FACE Wendy went to was from the Tartaros Cube.
 
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