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Not what I said. The idea that being a common take inherently makes it a good one is just sheep mentality
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Fairy Tail 100 Year Quest Discussion Thread: Post-Void Saga
- Thread starter DemonGodMitchAubin
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Twisted_Little_Raven
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My thing with Natsu is I feel like he hasn't changed. All I know is he's always itchin for a fight. I put his character on same level as Goku. I feel like they don't really go through a development lol
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I've talked before with some friends about some super underappreciated development he goes through following the second timeskip. We even see the effects of this concluded development in 100YQ. In addition, there's also Gildarts's lesson to Natsu, which people seem to believe went nowhere - something I don't necessarily believe given some things later on. Now, I'm not saying you must see Natsu as this paragon for all shonen protags to follow, now do you even have to agree with me to begin with, but I personally don't agree with the assessments of Natsu's character.
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People who think Natsu never changes or hasn’t changed… I mean did you read the series…?
Twisted_Little_Raven
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I mean you would have to explain it because from what I know, he's just a tough guy that won't back down from a fight. And he doesn't seem remotely interested in romance. The latter hasn't changed either. Other than someone who isn't afraid of a fight and will protect his friends who is Natsu really. Because that's who he always was. I'm not even saying that's bad, because I like combat hungry characters. I only like Natsu when he turns me up. He acts like a gag sometimes, he likes fighting, he'll protect his friends. The only way I can explain natsu
Twisted_Little_Raven
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This isn't even just a Natsu problem i don't think anybody in fairy tail goes through much development but Lucy, Laxus, Jellal, Gajeel. Probably some more I'm missing
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@Twisted_Little_Raven I'd be inclined to disagree. Several characters not listed go through notable development like Natsu (for reasons I already mentioned), Gray, Erza, Wendy, Sting, Minerva, Juvia, etc.
I'm not so naïve as to not recognize that even now, Fairy Tail is considered not good with a shallow cast by a number of people. That doesn't mean I agree with the sentiment, though.
I'm not so naïve as to not recognize that even now, Fairy Tail is considered not good with a shallow cast by a number of people. That doesn't mean I agree with the sentiment, though.
Twisted_Little_Raven
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Gray I'm not sure. Erza I'm not sure (even though is my favorite nowadays), Wendy sure, Minerva yes but it's also the classic villian to good guy automatic development. She has automatic development just because she used to be a villain those ppl are by default. Juvia I agree but at the same time not. From when shes first appeared to now big difference. But I think Gray is the only one that matters to her but I think recently something happened that made me think she actually cares about others too which is something I was waiting for.
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Bro I started a war on accident, I wasn't even talking about character writing I was talking about scaling one dumbass just used it as a way to express his distaste for natsu
Also no goku slander or I swear to god
Also no goku slander or I swear to god
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Juvia has shown to care for others beyond Gray as early as the Battle of Fairy Tail Arc when she willingly got severely injured by attacking Laxus's Thunder Palace so she wouldn't have to fight Cana
Also, Minerva having "automatic development" doesn't mean much given that the execution matters more than the concept. And well, I'd say Minerva's was executed well.
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Natsu carrying Gray to 5A because I asked Mashima why Gray was so weak once has been a wild chain of events
Twisted_Little_Raven
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It does yes but I'm just saying you can list every single former villian. Their development is easier to show. These characters always stand out more than good characters with good development because going from evil to good is always the strongest by default. This is why Octavia from the 100 is my favorite case of development because it goes from innocence, to warrior, to bloodthirsty dictator, to coming back to her warrior but not evil self instead of fully going back to innocence. Cause I like the concept of somewhat broken not able to fully go back
Twisted_Little_Raven
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The reason I said Gajeel because he's the last person you would ever think would care about fatherhood and settling down. Even though he got dogged by Serena the mission was more important than the beating and ego. But yes I agree with Minerva.
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So does Natsu scrapping with Viernes in base make him blatantly stronger than just about everyone?
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Yeah, that's currently used to scale Base Natsu far above the likes of Suzaku and Georg Raizen
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Not necessarily, but regardless being commonly called a flat character for a variety of reasons by a variety of people to the point that you’re one of the first reasons people list for dropping or not liking a series does not a deep or truly likeable character make.
I don’t think I ever really said, nor is anyone here denying that something happen, but like that something isn’t deep enough for you to try to point it out, in comparison to say Lucy finding a place for where she belongs after years of neglect and in turn finding her own power and worth, Mirajane literally losing her powers after she sees her sister “die”, feeling worthless and weak because of her loss of power, and then gaining it back to prevent another loss in her family, Laxus going from wanting to basically destroy the guild to fighting for his family [and even a little moment in 100 year quest that has him acknowledging Lucy’s power when his on screen appearance was him claiming she was weak] or Cana accepting that she doesn’t have to be S class to tell her father the truth about her identity, like Natsu never really has a real moment like this, and the only time I can think that he is, was like across the span of like 3 chapters, and after the arc isn’t never real highlighted again.
Such a good lesson only for it to only really be acknowledged once afterwards and ever brought up again.
Honestly at least the most you guys have to say is this because I thought I’d come back to this thread having to read some extremely dragged out think piece to make Natsu seem like more than he is, but you literally can’t do that because there isn’t anything there, for a character connected to so many plot lines you’d think there’d be something but no, I’d go as far to say Cana, and Mirajane have more depth and they have probably 1/10 amount of screen time and plot relevance than he does, it’s not like it’s a terrible thing but it just is idk, I’m shocked there are people think this is a hot take
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That is almost certainly an outlier. If base natsu was strong enough to fight Viernes then why bother with the buffed dragon force.
My point was that natsu has the ability to defeat most any character in his verse but uses his power poorly. Take his encounters with suzaku for example.
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Make a crt then lol
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Also I'm pretty critical of FT's writing, far more than you think possible, hell I despise Gildart's lesson, but that rant on character writing was a big fat reductive nothing burger. It was an opinion dressed up as fact. Have the opinion, you do you, but deeming any sort of possible opposing opinion as a 'dragged out think piece' screams bad faith.
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I didn’t call their post dragged out think pieces, I was saying I expected to come back to some Natsu’s character development analysis that drew on a bunch of minute details that make him seem more than what he is, neither of them posted that.
I do think I dropped the ball a bit on describing their character arcs but the general point still stands, you can’t be shocked people don’t like Natsu much if at all when he’s in a series surronded by characters like Laxus that have a clear and enjoyable A to B progression
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When he clashed with Viernes, it means he scales above the likes of Suzaku and Georg. That is pretty high in base form. But definitely not stronger than Dragon Force.
The Suzaku encounter in the Labyrinth Arc doesn't try to disprove what is happening in future arcs. As I said before that the fact Natsu can clash with Viernes compared to Suzaku and Georg failing to react plus Georg (who is stronger than Suzaku) got kill by a Dragon stomp from Selene.
I don't see the outlier on your point if Natsu has actually proven feats in current arcs. The only outlier I saw was people claiming Lucy scales to Natsu and Erza because of the Aquarius X Gemini form making water copies (because of Gemini only able to copy those less than or equal to). But pretty much what happened during Gold Owl still shows Natsu and Erza being more powerful than Lucy. This is an example of an outlier.
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You deemed any possible counter arguements as dragged out think pieces and making 'Natsu more than he is'. So you've just shown your not willing to hear any disagreements because you've already wrapped them up tight in a nice little box and will frame anything anyone says so that it fits in said box.
I don't care what you think of Natsu, I'm not shocked people don't like him, I don't care if you enjoy other characters more, that's the most subjective part of media, I was saying your approach to this discussion is myopic as hell.
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I have not, based on what I know about the character I don’t see what else they could elaborate on, and what I do see would need to be extrapolated for them to make the point of him being as dynamic and depth having as the rest of the cast.
You’re thinking that if I was confronted with something new or if someone brought up a character arc I missed I would ignore it or disregard it when that was never the case, nor did I imply it was, you just assumed it was because I referred to a hypothetical post as a “dragged out think piece”
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Using the term 'dragged out hit piece' has pretty blatant implications/connotations as to how you'd view push back, play coy all you want your phrasing speaks for itself. You said it yourself, no had yet to directly respond to you, so you made a pre-emptive assertion on points you had yet to hear as 'people making Natsu more than he is'. I cannot spell it out any clearer how reductive that is.
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I said I expected to come back to one and was shocked to see no one had posted one, I never said that any retort to my post would be therefore be a drawn out think piece, that’s something you assumed.
This whole discussion is going around in circles because you have a one track opinion on how I would respond to any points against my opinion despite me myself telling you otherwise. If the op was worded in a way that gave that impression off it wasn’t the intention but I’ve already clarified that so there’s really nothing else for me to say on this topic.
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OK, this whole argument is really getting pointless. Let's end this. We all have our views. But don't repeat yourself on it again and again. It just sounds like we're all shoving it on each other's faces and it just feels disrespectful.
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Fine by me, no point in engaging in endless semantics
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Natsu changes a great deal, just very subtly. X784 Natsu is a lot more a dick who doesn’t open up about his feelings
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I do agree. Natsu back at the beginning only cared about winning and losing a fight. But from Alvarez onward, he completely changed about fighting to continue living, not to win. Like even put aside his fight with Suzaku to stop Ignia at the Labyrinth.
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Even if you disagree with that, which you're free to do, I also think it's at least a bit close-minded to write off any such character analysis as "making them out to be more than they are"
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There are several notable changes to be found in Natsu
Natsu’s relationship with Gray is a lot better, they basically never fight anymore, which is a good end result of their conflict in Alvarez where Natsu openly cries and begs Gray to live
Natsu also becomes a lot more overprotective of Lucy after Future Lucy dies. He basically is constantly looking out for her after the GMG. He also chooses teamwork far more often overtime, with him only kinda rejecting it against Viernes because it’s clear he wanted to test his own strength in preparation for Ignia.
Like to suggest Natsu never changes is foolish. Another thing to remember is that the 100YQ is a job. During Tartaros and Alvarez, it was all out war, Natsu HAD to be serious. In 100YQ, it’s primarily a goofy quest where the world really isn’t at danger, so Natsu acts like a goofball, but when the danger level is clearly above normal like with Aldoron, Ignia, Viernes, and more, Natsu immediately slips back into serious mode.
Yeah Natsu isn’t some masterclass of depth or anything, but he very clearly does grow and evolve, and just because he has typical shonen MC traits don’t mean he’s boring, at least to me
You want boring, look at Yuji Itadori
Natsu’s relationship with Gray is a lot better, they basically never fight anymore, which is a good end result of their conflict in Alvarez where Natsu openly cries and begs Gray to live
Natsu also becomes a lot more overprotective of Lucy after Future Lucy dies. He basically is constantly looking out for her after the GMG. He also chooses teamwork far more often overtime, with him only kinda rejecting it against Viernes because it’s clear he wanted to test his own strength in preparation for Ignia.
Like to suggest Natsu never changes is foolish. Another thing to remember is that the 100YQ is a job. During Tartaros and Alvarez, it was all out war, Natsu HAD to be serious. In 100YQ, it’s primarily a goofy quest where the world really isn’t at danger, so Natsu acts like a goofball, but when the danger level is clearly above normal like with Aldoron, Ignia, Viernes, and more, Natsu immediately slips back into serious mode.
Yeah Natsu isn’t some masterclass of depth or anything, but he very clearly does grow and evolve, and just because he has typical shonen MC traits don’t mean he’s boring, at least to me
You want boring, look at Yuji Itadori
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Tbh I stopped giving FT shit after releasing I can't write any better myself so I try not to judge.
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And we love you for it
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To be fair, Natsu actually didn’t even want to borrow power from his friends, he was confident he could take Viernes by himself and he was doing fairly well in that regard. I’m not saying he directly scales, but he’s definitely not miles behind the Dragon Gods.
He constantly holds back because Dragon Force burns through a lot of power and usually is for well… Killing. Basically Natsu has only ever whipped out Dragon Force from X792 onwards if he’s ready to kill. He tried to kill Zeref, did kill Aldoron, and did kill Viernes. If the fight with Suzaku continued, he probably would have whipped out stronger stuff, but it didn’t, so it’s fine. We can clearly see Natsu is still relative to Suzaku at this point with their performances against Dogramag. I mean Natsu tanked an attack that took out Human Selene
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Meh most folks can't write for shit including myself
Twisted_Little_Raven
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I don't think any version of Natsu would have prioritized Suzaku over Ignia and I think any version of him would protect Lucy as hard as he can. Gray part I don't disagree with not that i disagree with other points u said I just think any version of Natsu would have done those things. I wouldn't call 100yq a goofy job since it's about stopping a bunch of apocalyptic elemental Acnologias. I know they don't pose immediately danger but some of them genuinely wanted to just destroy everything
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I don’t really see it like that at all though, he grew up with him and they are in the same guild, it’s not a conflict resolution for him to cry and beg him not to die it’s completely in character. We already saw him do the exact same thing for Erza in the first major arc in the series, he play fights with her or at least wants to fight with her, as much as he does with Gray, yet also was left in tears when he realized she was trying to sacrifice herself, that’s just how they are for each other it’s nothing new
I’d assume he does but my only problem with this is that it’s never really called out in the series, like we know why he’s so hellbent on helping rogue its brought up, but he’s never not looked out for Lucy so him caring more or being more protective of her isn’t really noticeable, especially when after this he leaves her for a couple years.
Yuji awesome honestly, and Natsu not really bad I just consider him flat in comparison to the rest of the cast, which isn’t really that insulting because I like the fairy tail cast a lot
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Also by the way only viewing character writing as A to B development rather than I don't know, exploration of already existing traits for example is a super shallow way to digest media. No respectable author views writing that way, and character writing takes many shapes.
I expected the handwriting away of counter points and I was proven right, but 'not changing' being an immediate reason for making the assertion that a character isn't interesting is utter sopishm.
I expected the handwriting away of counter points and I was proven right, but 'not changing' being an immediate reason for making the assertion that a character isn't interesting is utter sopishm.
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