Even Further Beyond: The Hypertime of Sonic the Hedgehog

[ElAlekaPL]

Well the Egg Salamander isn't considered a peak Super Form level opponent, so no atm

Considering the mechas piloting by two Eggmans they need at least two Super Forms to be defeated, Egg Salamander would be considered SS peak since was a mecha piloted by Eggman and Nega

I'm agree with the thread btw

 

[ShakeResounding]

Back when I tried to do a hypertimeline upgrade thread myself, I based it on the idea of just having time hierarchies, but the argument here is that even when a space-time continuum is destroyed, you can still engage in time manipulation along an alternate temporal axis, one that supersedes the destroyed one and contains an infinite amount of versions of the space time continuum along its path.

Exactly correct, you nailed it! What a long way a succinct argument goes.

I understand this with Solaris, not as much with Time Eater.

Time Eater scales via fighting the full power Super Sonics, while his timehax obviously scales to that potency as well.

 

[Theuser789]

Considering the mechas piloting by two Eggmans they need at least two Super Forms to be defeated, Egg Salamander would be considered SS peak since was a mecha piloted by Eggman and Nega

Needing multiple super forms is not enough to scale to peak emeralds.

 

[JJSliderman]

6-D game Sonic…never thought I’d see the day.

Although I think if it happened, I’d consider dropping 7-D for Solaris’s HDE. Previously I was okay with it based on Solaris upscaling Illumina, but now 6-D is based on cosmology wiping and not Maginaryworld. Unsure I suppose.

 

[Qawsedf234]

I'll just quote the FAQ to I can reference back to it

Q: How do temporal dimensions impact on tiering?​

A: The relationship between the spatial dimensions of a universe and the additional temporal dimension(s) may be visualized as something akin to the frames of a movie placed side-by-side. Basically, the time-like direction may be thought of as a line comprised of uncountably infinite points, each of which is a static "snapshot" of the whole universe at any given moment, with the set of all such events comprising the totality of spacetime.

This structure can then be generalized to any number of dimensions, which is why destroying a spacetime continuum is a greater feat than destroying only the contents of the physical universe (Low 2-C, rather than 3-A or High 3-A).

A spacetime continuum with two time axes, instead of just one, could likewise be visualized as a line comprised of uncountably infinite points, each of which is a static "snapshot" of the entire regular timeline with 3 space and 1 time dimension. It would hence be one level of qualitative superiority above a timeline and as such baseline Low 1-C. Similarily, adding even more time dimensions would add one level of qualitative superiority each time.

Outside of explanations which state that multiple time dimensions exist it is difficult to show that a fiction has more than one. The key point that has to be established is that there is a kind of time that flows in a different direction than the past or the future or any of the spatial directions.

Things like timelines having time that passes at different rates would not qualify, as even the theory of general relativity already establishes that with just one regular time dimension time can flow at different rates in different places. Time flowing backwards in another universe would also not qualify it to have an additional time dimension, as it would still use the same directions of past and future as regular time, just with events playing out in reverse. For the same reasons, statements about independent time streams or of separate kinds of time, which could flow parallel to the original time, would not qualify.
Neither would dimensions that are timeless voids or are described as beyond spacetime in general qualify. Unless they cotradict themselves, these realms should not have a time dimension at all, with change in them happening according to other principles. If they, on the other hand, do contradict themselves, the statement of them not having regular time would inherently not be reliable, making the idea equally unusable.

Of particular consideration are instances in which timelines as a whole being changed, such that there is a timeline (or multiple timelines) before they were changed and after they were changed or created / destroyed. As the timelines as a whole are changed, the before and after in this context can't be the past and future the timelines usually use, but should be a separate direction.
However, caution is necessary. As explained above, we require that the additional time dimension is "a line comprised of uncountably infinite points". If new versions of timelines are only created if they are changed, due to time travel for example, then the number of "snapshots" of the timeline would be far more limited. The amount of snapshots would be one more than the times the timeline was changed. So, for example, if the timeline is rewritten 2 times, there would be 3 snapshots of the timeline: the original, the timeline after the first rewrite and the timeline after the second rewrite. That are far less than the required uncountably infinite many.
Aside from direct statements, the easiest way to confirm that the line is comprised of uncountably infinite points/"snapshots" is to show that the development of the timelines is time-like. I.e. typically one would want a statement like the alteration of the timelines being subject to its own flow of time or by saying that special time travel can go to prior versions of the timelines instead of the past. The keyword in the latter case is time travel, as that specifies that the action happens through movement through something like time. Note that such statements can be considered contradicted if the fiction specifies that new versions of the timeline, i.e. additional snapshots, are only created when the timeline is altered or similar.
One other pitfall to consider is the case of branching timelines, where one can return to a past with less timelines by just going back to a point in the regular past that was before the split happened. In such cases one has to decide based on context if that is meant or if a prior version where the splits also didn't exist in the regular future is meant. The former case doesn't qualify for an additional time dimension, while the latter might if it meets the other outlined criteria.

For the points

End of Time​

This section has no justifications for two temporal dimensions. Have separate timestreams isn't enough for the rating, since they can still flow in the same directions of front and back.

• Supplementary (Game Guide): White Space is an endless white void said to be both a dimension between realities[7] and a realm between dimensions where time does not exist. Time Eater's lair is a dimension of its own,[3] and we know due to Tails' statement during the initial moments of the Time Eater fight that the End of Time is a separate dimension from the Time Eater's lair[4] they remained there when the Super Sonics left.

Time not existing isn't a justification either per the FAQ

Neither would dimensions that are timeless voids or are described as beyond spacetime in general qualify. Unless they cotradict themselves, these realms should not have a time dimension at all, with change in them happening according to other principles. If they, on the other hand, do contradict themselves, the statement of them not having regular time would inherently not be reliable, making the idea equally unusable.

So the white void of nothing isn't a justification, neither is a separate realm having space time. Since they're independent from each other but still share the same temporal direction.

• Supplementary (Game Guide): Crisis City is referred to as a "distorted version of a timeline that never was", directly referencing it being erased from existence once Elise blew out Solaris when it was still the Flame of Hope.

This is the only one that may qualify as having two temporal axis, as your going to a timeline that was erased because of the White Space created by the Time Eater.

Sonic the Hedgehog (2006)​

Nothing provided here is a justification for two temporal axis. Just one.

Sonic Prime​

Nothing provided here is evidence for two temporal axis.

For most of the confusion I think you're misunderstanding what the "previous version of the multiverse" means. The original multiverse is required to exist and you're travelling to a previous iteration before an event happened. Sonic going back before the Prism Splits or traveling before Solaris nukes reality isn't two temporal dimensions.

The only one that would count is Iblis, since the multiverse was changed that Solaris never existed in the first place and being able to go to a previous iteration where it did exist might qualify.

Overall though that is the only evidence in the blog that would count in my view. For the upgrade I guess I'm neutral.

 

[FaceOff81]

I whole-heartedely agree with ShakeResounding's CRT. The sooner added, the better accuracy present regarding the given profiles (powerscaling wise).

 

[XxZetsuxX]

Rip the legend Akira Toriyama, He was the goat of the anime ;c

As for the CRT, Does this mean the characters who scale to 5D will get bumped to 6D AP and 7D range?

And i agree with everything btw

 

[Peptocoptr27]

I'll just quote the FAQ to I can reference back to it

For the points

This section has no justifications for two temporal dimensions. Have separate timestreams isn't enough for the rating, since they can still flow in the same directions of front and back.

Time not existing isn't a justification either per the FAQ

So the white void of nothing isn't a justification, neither is a separate realm having space time. Since they're independent from each other but still share the same temporal direction.

This is the only one that may qualify as having two temporal axis, as your going to a timeline that was erased because of the White Space created by the Time Eater.

Nothing provided here is a justification for two temporal axis. Just one.

Nothing provided here is evidence for two temporal axis.

For most of the confusion I think you're misunderstanding what the "previous version of the multiverse" means. The original multiverse is required to exist and you're travelling to a previous iteration before an event happened. Sonic going back before the Prism Splits or traveling before Solaris nukes reality isn't two temporal dimensions.

The only one that would count is Iblis, since the multiverse was changed that Solaris never existed in the first place and being able to go to a previous iteration where it did exist might qualify.

Overall though that is the only evidence in the blog that would count in my view. For the upgrade I guess I'm neutral.

I do agree that the Sonic Prime reasoning is weak, but the other ones should still be fine since they're all about restoring erased time by going back in time.

 

[omegabronic]

Also the dimension of the time eater fight being directly said to be a time dimension. As flying thought it is the same as flying through time, and we know the normsl time dimension was destroyed by the time eater cosmology wipe

 

[Phsccarvalho]

Staff Agree: 1 (CloverDragon03)

Calculation guys don't have voting power.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Also the dimension of the time eater fight being directly said to be a time dimension. As flying thought it is the same as flying through time, and we know the normsl time dimension was destroyed by the time eater cosmology wipe

Having two zones with time isn't the same as two temporal axis if they're seperate dimensions. The only time it could imply two is if they physically existed in the same space where one section was erased but one kept going on.

but the other ones should still be fine since they're all about restoring erased time by going back in time.

That's only a singular temporal axis again. Reversing erasure with time travel or correcting a paradox wouldn't require an uncountable infinite snapshots of universal space. I only see a single instance that implies two and its 06 levels existing in Generations.

 

[omegabronic]

Having two zones with time isn't the same as two temporal axis if they're seperate dimensions.

It is not "two zones with time" the infinitite tunnel dimension IS a dimension of time, it isn't the case of 2 timelines
also, the faq does say that direct statements of other time dimensions can ease the process of proof

"Outside of explanations which state that multiple time dimensions exist it is difficult to show that a fiction has more than one"

And in this case, we have a statement of such

The only time it could imply two is if they physically existed in the same space where one section was erased but one kept going on.

What you mean by this?

That's only a singular temporal axis again. Reversing erasure with time travel or correcting a paradox wouldn't require an uncountable infinite snapshots of universal space. I only see a single instance that implies two and its 06 levels existing in Generations.

It would in this case since the entire timelines in question were destroy through all of the past, present and future

 

[Qawsedf234]

infinitite tunnel dimension IS a dimension of time, it isn't the case of 2 timelines
also, the faq does say that direct statements of other time dimensions can ease the process of proof

"Outside of explanations which state that multiple time dimensions exist it is difficult to show that a fiction has more than one"

Multiple time dimensions that move in the same temporal direction is a singular temporal dimension. Which is why I don't think it's a valid indicator of a larger hyper timeline.

What you mean by this?

If two zones existed within the same space-time continuum and one section got erased but another kept going on, it would be an indication of an additional time axis. Being separated into another dimension disqualifies it from it, since the destruction of one doesn't effect the other anyways.

would in this case since the entire timelines in question were destroy through all of the past, present and future

You're only getting at most three snap shots, before -> collapses -> fixed space. This isn't an uncountable infinite, since time travel is effecting the events of the story and retcons characters away.

 

[Bobsican]

You're only getting at most three snap shots, before -> collapses -> fixed space. This isn't an uncountable infinite, since time travel is effecting the events of the story and retcons characters away.

By default the snapshots of a timeline are infinitely many in terms of the past, present and future, rather than just 3, so it'd indeed by uncountably infinite on this regard.

Anyways, at this pace someone will have to get Ultima to comment here.

 

[Qawsedf234]

By default the snapshots of a timeline are infinitely many in terms of the past, present and future, rather than just 3, so it'd indeed by uncountably infinite on this regard

The FAQ states it's not an uncountable infinite

So, for example, if the timeline is rewritten 2 times, there would be 3 snapshots of the timeline: the original, the timeline after the first rewrite and the timeline after the second rewrite. That are far less than the required uncountably infinite many.

It's at best three and doesn't qualify for a Hyper Timeline.

 

[Peptocoptr27]

The FAQ states it's not an uncountable infinite

Seems kinda dumb ngl

 

[Qawsedf234]

Seems kinda dumb ngl

Because it's not a snapshot of timelines, merely the existence of different states of space times. With the void you're going to a previous iteration of a timeline where a thing existed, which can then be expanded out to included further iterations of previous timelines which is where an uncountable infinity can come from.

 

[omegabronic]

The FAQ states it's not an uncountable infinite

It's at best three and doesn't qualify for a Hyper Timeline.

Well, it isn't 2 timeline in this case

Multiple time dimensions that move in the same temporal direction is a singular temporal dimension. Which is why I don't think it's a valid indicator of a larger hyper timeline.

OK, so the only way for it to be a different time dimension is if it moves in a different direction, we are stated/explained directly that it is a different time dimension, which is backed up by the time travel examples given, one of which you agreef with, so it is a different direction since it is a different time dimension

The faq says as much that an explanation is a proof of it, an easier proof at that

Btw i have to ask, if you accepted that it is saying that it is a different time dimension, and we have 2 example that you agree that shows a different direction, then what is holding you from an "agree" to a "neutral" exactly?

 

[Qawsedf234]

Well, it isn't 2 timeline in this case

The evidence for that section wouldn't indicate an uncountable infinite number of snapshots.

OK, so the only way for it to be a different time dimension is if it moves in a different direction, we are stated/explained directly that it is a different time dimension, which is backed up by the time travel examples given, one of which you agreef with, so it is a different direction since it is a different time dimension

No. Being a different time dimension is irrelevant, since different temporal dimensions with different flow rates can still move in the same time direction. Multiple time dimensions means multiple directions of time, which isn't indicated anywhere from what I see.

What I agree with is that in one example with Sonic 06 there's an indication of going to a previous iteration of the timestream, but that's the only one I see as being valid for a hyper timeline.

The faq says as much that an explanation is a proof of it, an easier proof at that

What the FAQ wants as a justification isn't provided by the OP outside of maybe one instance.

then what is holding you from an "agree" to a "neutral" exactly?

Because a singular instance of it maybe counting isn't enough for me.

 

[Brogeefrong]

Because a singular instance of it maybe counting isn't enough for me.

Not even for a Possibly?

 

[Qawsedf234]

Not even for a Possibly?

It either is or isn't. There's not a possibly imo.

 

[Brogeefrong]

It either is or isn't. There's not a possibly imo.

But isnt the "Maybe" it counting, the grounds for a Likely/Possibly?

 

[Robo432343]

i change from agree to disagree fra

 

[Brogeefrong]

Bump

 

[ShakeResounding]

This section has no justifications for two temporal dimensions. Have separate timestreams isn't enough for the rating, since they can still flow in the same directions of front and back.

When the entirety of the cosmology has its space-time erased and the End of Time exists "above" White Space, I think there's more evidence that seems to indicate it as a separate flow altogether than it using the same timeflow

So the white void of nothing isn't a justification, neither is a separate realm having space time. Since they're independent from each other but still share the same temporal direction.

How do you gather they share the same temporal direction when tine has gone kaput? The very space-time of the cosmology being erased is what makes White Space, this is stated both within the game and within summaries of the game within official guides. So how that time going to remain intact when time as a whole is destroyed?

Nothing provided here is a justification for two temporal axis. Just one.

Changing the state of a timeline as a whole to a previous state is absolutely indicative of hypertime going by the FAQ section I quoted. The End of Time IS that second temporal dimension, existing above the cosmology and independent of time being erased across the cosmology. I don't think you have any evidence to support that claim when context of the title indicates otherwise.

The only one that would count is Iblis, since the multiverse was changed that Solaris never existed in the first place and being able to go to a previous iteration where it did exist might qualify.

Considering Solaris' existence being removed is the catalyst for reality being brought back to normal, I'm pretty sure this is the most overt example so I don't think it's a "might qualify" as much as "does qualify".

Sorry for my super late response. I've been swamped with IRL matters and the wiki has become a secondary thing to me as of late.

 

[Qawsedf234]

When the entirety of the cosmology has its space-time erased and the End of Time exists "above" White Space, I think there's more evidence that seems to indicate it as a separate flow altogether than it using the same timeflow

It being separated means nothing. It's about the direction of the temporal stream which can still follow the same pattern as the other multiverse set.

How do you gather they share the same temporal direction when tine has gone kaput?

Because Eggman and Tails are talking and time is progressing forward. It's on you to prove the flow of time is going differently and I don’t see that here.

Changing the state of a timeline as a whole to a previous state is absolutely indicative of hypertime going by the FAQ section I quoted.

It's not. It's going back to a previous iteration while the current remains. Going to a previous state isn't indicative of an uncountable infinite snapshot.

I'm pretty sure this is the most overt example so I don't think it's a "might qualify" as much as "does qualify".

Sure I guess, but it's the only one I see as having any substance of your given list.

existing above the cosmology and independent of time being erased across the cosmology.

This still wouldn't be indicative of a different temporal direction. Just that the End of Time wasn't erased.

 

[ShakeResounding]

It being separated means nothing. It's about the direction of the temporal stream which can still follow the same pattern as the other multiverse set.

Considering everything else below it was erased, pretty sure absolutely does.

Whatever time existed was erased, and you have no evidence that points to time somehow simultaneously being erased yet left intact without involving an additional temporal dimension. What you're putting for just makes no sense within the context of the game.

Because Eggman and Tails are talking and time is progressing forward. It's on you to prove the flow of time is going differently and I don’t see that here.

Uh, pretty sure the FAQ says moving at different temporal speeds does nothing to prove it because it's theorized different places in our own universe may be able to function at differing timerates.

Also, looking at it again. this seems to just be blatant game mechanics that neither helps you nor me here so I'm likely going to remove it from the blog unless other people/staff see it as important.

It's not. It's going back to a previous iteration while the current remains. Going to a previous state isn't indicative of an uncountable infinite snapshot.

A dimension of time is assumed to be uncountably infinite in terms of snapshots unless elaborated otherwise, is it not? I'm not sure what makes hypertime any different when the End of Time is highlighted to be infinite verbatim.

Sure I guess, but it's the only one I see as having any substance of your given list.

Fair.

This still wouldn't be indicative of a different temporal direction. Just that the End of Time wasn't erased.

Sounds circular. It's a being that entirely revolves around the erasure of space-time and is said on multiple occasions out of the game to have erased all of it (space-time) after being unleashed by Eggman.

Which only aligns with there being a hypertime, as we know in the game that Eggman isn't overhyping it. Time Eater did exactly that.

 

[ShakeResounding]

Also also. About Solaris and Prime. Is it not indicative of a hypertime even when even only one timeline is being altered entirely after what should be irreparable damage being done to its space-time continuum? I was under the impression that it didn't matter so long as we know for sure it's the state of the entire timeline being changed, as I'm not seeing anything about the necessity for an event to affect the whole multiverse when the FAQ uses "timeline" terminology.

Regardless, thank you for your input to get the thread going @Qawsedf234! I've noted you as neutral at the moment and will try and be diligent with responses in my free time

 

[Qawsedf234]

Whatever time existed was erased, and you have no evidence that points to time somehow simultaneously being erased yet left intact without involving an additional temporal dimension. What you're putting for just makes no sense within the context of the game.

It's already a seperate space. They would need to occupy the same physical realm for it to count as two independent temporal directions. You can have an infinite amount of seperate time streams but if they all progress in the same fashion then you only have a single temporal axis.

Uh, pretty sure the FAQ says moving at different temporal speeds does nothing to prove it because it's theorized different places in our own universe may be able to function at differing timerates.

Moving at different temporal speeds isn't evidence that they're different, meaning what is shown in-game is counter evidence that there's a hypertimeline.

infinite in terms of snapshots unless elaborated otherwise, is it not? I'm not sure what makes hypertime any different when the End of Time is highlighted to be infinite verbatim.

No. The FAQ mentions that reseting your temporal space is just a single snapshot. You have to show that you're going to a previous iteration of the multiverse itself while the original remains to get the implications of infinite snapshots. It's why a reset or reboot like what's in the game isn't evidence for two temporal axis.

Which only aligns with there being a hypertime,

It just means the End of Time is physically separated from the multiverse, which is why the rest of reality being erased didn't effect it. A second axis wouldn't be necessary.

About Solaris and Prime. Is it not indicative of a hypertime even when even only one timeline is being altered entirely after what should be irreparable damage being done to its space-time continuum?

No. Because all you have is [Original] [Broke] [Changed Original]. You have to be like the MCU where Loki time travels when the multiverse physical never existed and them time travels back to when it did. Because in that instance he went to a previous iteration of the multiverse and then the modern with just time travel and both still existed. Which is important since the multiverse is retroactive and canonically began at the Big Bang.

 

[Eseseso]

It's already a seperate space. They would need to occupy the same physical realm for it to count as two independent temporal directions. You can have an infinite amount of seperate time streams but if they all progress in the same fashion then you only have a single temporal axis.


Moving at different temporal speeds isn't evidence that they're different, meaning what is shown in-game is counter evidence that there's a hypertimeline.


No. The FAQ mentions that reseting your temporal space is just a single snapshot. You have to show that you're going to a previous iteration of the multiverse itself while the original remains to get the implications of infinite snapshots. It's why a reset or reboot like what's in the game isn't evidence for two temporal axis.


It just means the End of Time is physically separated from the multiverse, which is why the rest of reality being erased didn't effect it. A second axis wouldn't be necessary.

No. Because all you have is [Original] [Broke] [Changed Original]. You have to be like the MCU where Loki time travels when the multiverse physical never existed and them time travels back to when it did. Because in that instance he went to a previous iteration of the multiverse and then the modern with just time travel and both still existed. Which is important since the multiverse is retroactive and canonically began at the Big Bang.

Quick question: At the end of Sonic 06, Sonic and Elise have to go back in time to undo Solaris wrecking the entire 5D cosmology (as it would include Maginary world, which has 4 spatial dimensions and one time dimension) by altering the timeline through making sure Solaris was never born.

Wouldn't that indicate a higher time dimension above the 5D cosmology?

 

[Qawsedf234]

Wouldn't that indicate a higher time dimension above the 5D cosmology?

You can be High 1-A and only have only one temporal dimension. You would have to prove that time stops working in a higher dimension like in the Archie Comics or that higher dimensions have higher temporal realms.

 

[Theuser789]

Neutral because I have no idea how this works but I feel obligated to comment.

 

[Peptocoptr27]

Neutral because I have no idea how this works but I feel obligated to comment.

I am also super ******* confused, so I'm gonna have to switch to neutral. Still leaning towards agreement since Shake's conclusion is far more straightforward

 

[Omnificence]

Neutral so far.

 

[Eseseso]

Le bump

 

[Lord_Farquaad69420]

whose winning

 

[Eseseso]

whose winning

Considering the only voting staff is neutral...no one.

 

[Peptocoptr27]

Clover agrees

 

[Eseseso]

Clover agrees

Calc staff are unfortunately not voting staff.

Only admins, thread mods, and bureaucrats can give voting agreements. unless it's a calc discussion.

 

[Peptocoptr27]

Calc staff are unfortunately not voting staff.

Only admins, thread mods, and bureaucrats can give voting agreements. unless it's a calc discussion.

I recall Antvasima saying otherwise at some point. I might be misremembering though