Equal Stats Enemy Duos Tournament: Kamen Rider? I barely even know 'er!

[SlendVeny]

All stats equal.

Durendal and Slash vs Sasuke and Naruto

For the Kamen Riders, I believe I heard something about it being a Solomon Arc? Idk.

Sasuke and Naruto are their Kaguya Fight variants, so Sasuke does not have Bijuu Batteries for his Indra Susano'o. Naruto starts with SPSM, and Sasuke has his EMS and Rinnegan active.

Kamen Riders:

Shinobi:

 

[Shadowslash125]

Following and I should be helping out in a bit.

 

[Nicetoderp]

I wonder if Sasuke Genjutsu would work against the Saber Riders obscene willpower (they powered through 4-D Type 1 Concept body control)

 

[GrayCraft_Dragon]

e

 

[DontTalkDT]

I don't think Genjutsu can be countered by willpower.

 

[Nicetoderp]

I don't think Genjutsu can be countered by willpower.

Why not? Saber Riders already powered through 4D manipulation of the body, which from the last time I heard was how Genjutsu operated.

And if that still isn't enough, then Durendal can just causality manip and erase the event where one of them get Genjutsu.

 

[SlendVeny]

And if that still isn't enough, then Durendal can just causality manip and erase the event where one of them get Genjutsu.

Is it passive?

 

[DavidTPPM]

Why not? Saber Riders already powered through 4D manipulation of the body, which from the last time I heard was how Genjutsu operated

No genjutsu is mind and illusion manipulation. Sasuke will basically control her mind with just a look.

 

[Nicetoderp]

Is it passive?

Not quite, but it happened almost instantly. Ever heard of King Crimson from JoJo?

No genjutsu is mind and illusion manipulation. Sasuke will basically control her mind with just a look.

So Durendal, just Causality hax and erased the event from happening, unless you can guarantee that Sasuke always starts with Genjutsu. Durendal always starts with Time Erasure, even on opponent who's 6 tier below him.

 

[DontTalkDT]

One problem with good genjutsu is the fact that you don't notice that you are caught in a genjutsu.
Like, if you look at fights such as Sasuke vs Itachi, he will fight an illusion in a realistic fight until he kills it and only then notice that he fought absolutely nothing the whole time. But by that time Sasuke already stands ready to cut his head off or something.

 

[DavidTPPM]

So Durendal, just Causality hax and erased the event from happening, unless you can guarantee that Sasuke always starts with Genjutsu. Durendal always starts with Time Erasure, even on opponent who's 6 tier below him.

That really depends on the opponent. Majority of the people Sasuke fights are genjutsu resistant, but he's not against the idea of starting with it. For example when he put all 9 bijuu under a genjutsu in a single look the moment they showed antagonism.

So realistically Sasuke might start with genjustu if he sees his opponent doesn't have a dojutsu that counters it and isn't an otsutsuki. Especially with SBA

 

[DontTalkDT]

Sauceke and Naruko FRA

 

[DavidTPPM]

Yeah Nard and Saucer FRA

 

[IxaSaga2]

Wait hold up a second. Not tagged so I'm here late.

From what I see, this sounds like how Durendal fights. If I'm not mistaken, Sasuke looks at them and they go into an illusion, right? Durendal starts with his Time Manipulation which is him going out of space and time and observing from his own space. The Durendal that is currently fighting would be akin to an illusion because that wouldn't be the real Durendal. In this state, Durendal can't be interacted with and seen unless they've got a resistance or something. I'd imagine Durendal going into this state and observing it to be an illusion first. Then, the fake Durendal would reveal the illusion to be fake while the real one would be out of space and time.

Slash also has a passive with his sound manip that is a power null that negates and dispels things by being the antithesis of it so it might work against genjustu. He is also good enough to dodge invisible things coming at him, so if Sasuke does go for an attack like that, I'd imagine Slash can defend against it. His sound is also an aoe explosion manip so that would deter the opponents away.

 

[SlendVeny]

Wait hold up a second. Not tagged so I'm here late.

From what I see, this sounds like how Durendal fights. If I'm not mistaken, Sasuke looks at them and they go into an illusion, right? Durendal starts with his Time Manipulation which is him going out of space and time and observing from his own space. The Durendal that is currently fighting would be akin to an illusion because that wouldn't be the real Durendal. In this state, Durendal can't be interacted with and seen unless they've got a resistance or something. I'd imagine Durendal going into this state and observing it to be an illusion first. Then, the fake Durendal would reveal the illusion to be fake while the real one would be out of space and time.

Sasuke and Naruto can perceive beings in other dimensions.

 

[IxaSaga2]

Sasuke and Naruto can perceive beings in other dimensions.

Not sure if that equates. Durendal is outside space and time, not really in another dimension. More specifically, a place where time has been erase or doesn't exist, hence its name, "Erased Time".

 

[Shadowslash125]

Bump because the riders are in risk of elimination. We have to address the elephant in the room that is Durendal going outside space and time where time is completely erased.

 

[IxaSaga2]

I'm gonna put the main points of the KRs and go from there.

From the way I see it, Durendal's time manipulation keeps both him and Slash safe. I don't think Genjutsu would have much of an effect even if it hits. Not only does Durendal go into Erased Time and is unable to be interacted with so he can just wait it out, but he can also save Slash from that spot too by, long story short, warping him out of bad positions.

Furthermore, Slash has an overall stats amplification by changing forms and Durendal has RPL which boosts his AP every time he uses his time manip and he is a known spammer. If the fight drags out, Durendal's AP is going to get higher and higher. Their attacks also get far stronger by activating finisher moves.

If Naruto and Sasuke doesn't have an answer to these then I'm inclined to lean KRs.

 

[Shadowslash125]

Bump

 

[DavidTPPM]

I'm gonna put the main points of the KRs and go from there.

From the way I see it, Durendal's time manipulation keeps both him and Slash safe. I don't think Genjutsu would have much of an effect even if it hits. Not only does Durendal go into Erased Time and is unable to be interacted with so he can just wait it out, but he can also save Slash from that spot too by, long story short, warping him out of bad positions.

That's not really going to work since genjutsu completely paralyzes them and either knocks them unconscious or gives Sasuke full control over their minds.

Furthermore, Slash has an overall stats amplification by changing forms and Durendal has RPL which boosts his AP every time he uses his time manip and he is a known spammer. If the fight drags out, Durendal's AP is going to get higher and higher. Their attacks also get far stronger by activating finisher moves.

I mean, Naruto and Sasuke have access to those jumps from the start.The rasengan is a one shot AP amp over physical stats, rasengan barrage doubles the power of a rasengan, bijuu bomb is a league above that, kyubi avatar is at least relative to it, and Ashura avatar is at least 3x above that with dual rasen shurikens being additionally 2x above that.

Basically Narutos full power attack would be
Ashura rasen shurikens >> Ashura avatar >>> kyubi avatar >~ tailed beast bomb > rasengan barrage > rasengan > physical stats.

Sasuke basically has the same scaling except for the last 2 steps. Meaning they both have insane AP jumps as well

 

[Psychomaster35]

Sauce Cake X Naruto FRA

 

[IxaSaga2]

That's not really going to work since genjutsu completely paralyzes them and either knocks them unconscious or gives Sasuke full control over their minds.

Assuming we start at SBA, would Genjutsu reach the KRs which would be several - tens km away? Wanna ask this first cause I got something for the scaling and multipliers but it mostly hinges on this.

 

[DavidTPPM]

Assuming we start at SBA, would Genjutsu reach the KRs which would be several - tens km away? Wanna ask this first cause I got something for the scaling and multipliers but it mostly hinges on this.

Difficult to say. Technically Sasuke never activated genjutsu from that distance. At least not as far as I'm aware. But he did control beings already under genjutsu from a country away, and Kaguyas IT covered the entire earth and Sasukes dojutsu states it's a rinnegan genjutsu (and so is Sasukes).

So while he never used specifically genjutsu across a 4+km distance, you could reason that he should be capable since other rinnegan genjutsus did, and his rinnegan could clearly control the bijuu and chibaku tensei more than 4km away.

 

[IxaSaga2]

Difficult to say. Technically Sasuke never activated genjutsu from that distance. At least not as far as I'm aware. But he did control beings already under genjutsu from a country away, and Kaguyas IT covered the entire earth and Sasukes dojutsu states it's a rinnegan genjutsu (and so is Sasukes).

So while he never used specifically genjutsu across a 4+km distance, you could reason that he should be capable since other rinnegan genjutsus did, and his rinnegan could clearly control the bijuu and chibaku tensei more than 4km away.

Then, I think the apparent problem with this is would Sasuke think of using Genjutsu at 4km away as a first move. Durendal, I guarantee you is going to use Time first known one trick pony.

If Durendal gets his first Time manip off, then it leads to quite a disadvantage for Naruto and Sasuke. I'll elaborate further if needed, but I want to get the above figured out first.

Multipliers for Slash would be 3x physically + higher for finishers, Durendal would be 9x+ + higher for finishers. Technically now, they can potentially get 2187x stronger but the revision hasn't gone through yet, so I won't use that lol

Edit: I'm sleep after this, will pick up tmr. Will silently judge FRA trains if I wake up to one.

 

[Shadowslash125]

Kaguyas IT covered the entire earth and Sasukes dojutsu states it's a rinnegan genjutsu (and so is Sasukes).

Hold up, isn't IT specifically made for that purpose? I can't say Sasuke's dojutsu would be able to work that far since IT needed to be set up elaborately to even work. Otherwise, Madara wouldn't even need to go that far for his grand plan in the first place.

you could reason that he should be capable since other rinnegan genjutsus did, and his rinnegan could clearly control the bijuu and chibaku tensei more than 4km away.

Not sure if sasuke's genjutsu range can be equated to the IW since those two are substantially different genjutsu scales. It's been a long while since I've watched Naruto but I don't remember any unique genjutsu specific to the Rinnegan and the Rinne Sharingan (except for IW). And even if he's able to control the bijuu from extremely far, he still has to cast them in a genjutsu first.

 

[DavidTPPM]

Then, I think the apparent problem with this is would Sasuke think of using Genjutsu at 4km away as a first move. Durendal, I guarantee you is going to use Time first known one trick pony.

Uhhh idk, why not? Sasuke literally never fought an opponent that's 4km away from the very start, those are pretty comical distances for a realistic fight.

If Durendal gets his first Time manip off, then it leads to quite a disadvantage for Naruto and Sasuke. I'll elaborate further if needed, but I want to get the above figured out first.

You can elaborate regardless I think.

Multipliers for Slash would be 3x physically + higher for finishers, Durendal would be 9x+ + higher for finishers. Technically now, they can potentially get 2187x stronger but the revision hasn't gone through yet, so I won't use that lol

Sure ig? I'm not sure how high the AP multipliers get rn for Nard ngl but I think it is on his profile.

Edit: I'm sleep after this, will pick up tmr. Will silently judge FRA trains if I wake up to one.

Good night, sleep tight

 

[Shadowslash125]

Hold up, isn't IT specifically made for that purpose? I can't say Sasuke's dojutsu would be able to work that far since IT needed to be set up elaborately to even work. Otherwise, Madara wouldn't even need to go that far for his grand plan in the first place.


Not sure if sasuke's genjutsu range can be equated to the IW since those two are substantially different genjutsu scales. It's been a long while since I've watched Naruto but I don't remember any unique genjutsu specific to the Rinnegan and the Rinne Sharingan (except for IW). And even if he's able to control the bijuu from extremely far, he still has to cast them in a genjutsu first.

Bumpity bump

 

[DavidTPPM]

Bumpity bump

I somehow missed your reply ngl. Sorry

Hold up, isn't IT specifically made for that purpose?

Uhhhh hard to say.

I can't say Sasuke's dojutsu would be able to work that far since IT needed to be set up elaborately to even work. Otherwise, Madara wouldn't even need to go that far for his grand plan in the first place.

I'm not suggesting Sasuke has inter-planetary range like IT. I'm simply saying IT, a similarly potent rinnegan genjutsu, has range waaaayyyy above 4 kilometers meaning it's not farfetched to say Sasukes would as well.

Not sure if sasuke's genjutsu range can be equated to the IW since those two are substantially different genjutsu scales. It's been a long while since I've watched Naruto but I don't remember any unique genjutsu specific to the Rinnegan and the Rinne Sharingan (except for IW).

IW? You mean IT? Anyway Sasuke uses specifically his rinnegan for genjutsu in the war.

And even if he's able to control the bijuu from extremely far, he still has to cast them in a genjutsu first.

Yeah which is why I said it's not 100% that he can do so. But he can use the rinnegan to control the already in-genjutsu bijuu and move the chibaku tensei from that distance so his rinnegan general range should be more than 4km. And there are no anti feats to suggest he can't.

 

[Shadowslash125]

I somehow missed your reply ngl. Sorry

I think it's because our replies got sent at the same time (or a very short time span) so it's aight.

Uhhhh hard to say.

I meant to say that something as potent as IT has to be set up in an elaborate way to cast its genjutsu.

I'm not suggesting Sasuke has inter-planetary range like IT. I'm simply saying IT, a similarly potent rinnegan genjutsu, has range waaaayyyy above 4 kilometers meaning it's not farfetched to say Sasukes would as well.

Anyway Sasuke uses specifically his rinnegan for genjutsu in the war.

I don't think we can really equate the rinne sharingan that Madara and Kaguya have on their forehead with Sasuke's Rinnegan which happens to have a few tomoes in it. The rinnegan will bring rinnegan specific abilities while the rinne sharingan was specifically used to cast Infinite Tsukuyomi.

Yeah which is why I said it's not 100% that he can do so. But he can use the rinnegan to control the already in-genjutsu bijuu and move the chibaku tensei from that distance so his rinnegan general range should be more than 4km. And there are no anti feats to suggest he can't.

I can concede with the higher than 4km range for all the other stuff you mentioned but it's kinda up in the air for me if he can actually genjutsu someone from that range or not. Then again I'm not a naruto scaler so I don't know.

IW? You mean IT?

Nah I meant IW. IW for infinite wealth

 

[DavidTPPM]

I think it's because our replies got sent at the same time (or a very short time span) so it's aight.

Yeah that's likely.

I meant to say that something as potent as IT has to be set up in an elaborate way to cast its genjutsu.

Uhhh no not really. It doesn't need set up, Kaguya just uses the moon to reflect the light in order to increase its range but that inherently means it's range is already enough to cover the entire moon.

I don't think we can really equate the rinne sharingan that Madara and Kaguya have on their forehead with Sasuke's Rinnegan which happens to have a few tomoes in it. The rinnegan will bring rinnegan specific abilities while the rinne sharingan was specifically used to cast Infinite Tsukuyomi.

Yeah but Sasuke specifically refers to Kaguyas IT genjustu as a "rinnegan genjutsu".

I can concede with the higher than 4km range for all the other stuff you mentioned but it's kinda up in the air for me if he can actually genjutsu someone from that range or not. Then again I'm not a naruto scaler so I don't know.

Fair

Nah I meant IW. IW for infinite wealth

 

[Shadowslash125]

Uhhh no not really. It doesn't need set up, Kaguya just uses the moon to reflect the light in order to increase its range but that inherently means it's range is already enough to cover the entire moon.

I meant Madara's way of using the ten tails to make it become some plant and then open his third eye to use Infinite Tsukuyomi. From what you are saying, Kaguya can casually do this? I could be wrong.

Yeah but Sasuke specifically refers to Kaguyas IT genjustu as a "rinnegan genjutsu".

That's interesting because not many people would have known the existence of the Rinne Sharingan and I figure Sasuke would be no different? Mayhaps he just looked at the third eye, see the similarities and chalked it off as another form of rinnegan when it's something else entirely.

Hehehehehehe

 

[DavidTPPM]

I meant Madara's way of using the ten tails to make it become some plant and then open his third eye to use Infinite Tsukuyomi. From what you are saying, Kaguya can casually do this? I could be wrong.

Uhh that's because Madara didn't actually have the dojutsu. The set up he needed was to gain the rinnesharingan.
But when he absorbed the tree and gained the dojutsu, he basically instantly activated IT.

That's interesting because not many people would have known the existence of the Rinne Sharingan and I figure Sasuke would be no different? Mayhaps he just looked at the third eye, see the similarities and chalked it off as another form of rinnegan when it's something else entirely.

I mean, he has eyes that can analyze the and perfectly copy the opponent, and he's seen Madara gain the dojutsu. He probably just saw the chakra and flesh that made up the eyeball and found out that way.

Most importantly he was right. His rinnegan CAN end IT on a global scale, and is a necessity to do so.

 

[Shadowslash125]

Well that puts my inquiries to rest.
Now it's basically a who procs their hax faster match. Who would win: a guy that has the abilities of King Crimson but doesn't resist Genjutsu or the rinnegan guy who we're not sure whether he can genjutsu someone from SBA max distance?
I'm leaning towards incon now (if that's actually the option).

 

[Topaz404]

Alright, so
From what i see so far- i may be leaning towards more the Kamen Riders. I know Genjutsu CAN effect them, but still unsure if Sasuke/Naruto would be able to pull it off at all.
If they can, might lean to Team Naruto, but for now im leaning Team KR

 

[Shadowslash125]

One thing I can see happening is that since Durendal tends to start off with time erasure ability even from far away, he's going to be able to figure out Sasuke's genjutsu shtick from observing how his current time counterpart is fighting against them. Once he sees the effects of genjutsu affecting his unerased counterpart and Slash, he's going to figure it out and not fall for that stuff again. Slash would also be notified of this after he gets awakened by a flick to the forehead or some other painful attack from Durendal.

 

[Topaz404]

Yeah. Methinks im gonna lean towards Team KR, even if it means whoever wins 1-8 may have a tougher time lol

 

[Shadowslash125]

So this is literally dead, huh?

 

[DavidTPPM]

Unless I'm missing something we have 3 votes for team Sauce, 1 vote for incon, and one vote for team Durendal.

I think that should be enough for a tournament battle that can't be put into profiles anyway

 

[SlendVeny]

Naruto and Sasuke seem to have won.