Epic (Cool Dudes Only) Dungeons and Dragons Discussion Thread

[Qawsedf234]

Pathfinder crunch wise is identical up to Epic iirc. After Epic and the Divine stuff it varies power wise but I think it ends at 2-A or Low 1-C for Yog and the Pathfinder OG goddess.

 

[Lou_change]

White Plume Mountain, and you're right- I'd forgotten about it in favor of the more famous of the two.

I can probably gather the materials if you want, but these are the sources I can find listed easily:

• White Plume Mountain (1e)
• Evil Tide (2e)
• Return to White Plume Mountain (2e)
• Dragon Magazine issue 299
• Arms and Equipment Guide (3e)
• The Plane Below (4e)

think this about covers what you'd want to go over

Fair, White Plume Mountain (1e) just explains the halve health thing and says it has the ability of 5 other items, Evil Tide and Dragon Magazine just reference it, Return to White plume it features one less item then the previous adventure, Arms and Equipment says it has an intelligence of 19 which is an outlier but it explains 2 composite item’s effects and let’s it know how to read everything plus I can actually find the 3e versions of the items involved but it lost the cube of force. 4e has it from the elemental chaos supports the idea of it being connected to the elemental plane of water so maybe it can plane shift. I found the 3.5e versions of White Plume Mountain and Return to White Plume Mountain had Wave as a legacy weapon that explains its features but not how legacy weapons work. It seems Wave might also have appeared in the Greyhawk Classics Series.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Fair, White Plume Mountain (1e) just explains the halve health thing and says it has the ability of 5 other items, Evil Tide and Dragon Magazine just reference it, Return to White plume it features one less item then the previous adventure, Arms and Equipment says it has an intelligence of 19 which is an outlier but it explains 2 composite item’s effects and let’s it know how to read everything plus I can actually find the 3e versions of the items involved but it lost the cube of force. 4e has it from the elemental chaos supports the idea of it being connected to the elemental plane of water so maybe it can plane shift. I found the 3.5e versions of White Plume Mountain and Return to White Plume Mountain had Wave as a legacy weapon that explains its features but not how legacy weapons work. It seems Wave might also have appeared in the Greyhawk Classics Series.

There's a book for 3.x called "Weapons of Legacy" that would explain the concept in detail. I have it and can give it to you, if you'd want, although given that you found the others it should be fairly simple for you to find it, too.

 

[Lou_change]

So do weapons of legacy have a reaction speed given they have a +20 bonus to Reflex saves?

 

[Mr. Bambu]

We generally don't assign a higher reaction speed for that. Reactions are all based on the fastest creature in a given tier and the fact that everyone in a tier has at least generally good odds to hit everyone else- so the Hypersonic+ all have High Hypersonic+ reactions, the Relativistic+ all have FTL+ reactions, etc.

 

[Lou_change]

Then could we use the levels required to do legacy stuff, 5th, 11th, 17th or the level of the adventure it is from (7th)

 

[Mr. Bambu]

As you can see, BG3 profiles are being made for only the most important and relevant characters.

 

[Tllmbrg]

Utterly based

 

[PsychoWarper]

Peak

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Hey, you know what, I'll share my uncertainty here with the rest of the class instead of the Discord. This post is gonna talk about tiering Baldur's Gate 3, so don't read if you don't want spoilers (nothing I've written for is super spoilery, but there is some stuff).

The levels of Baldur's Gate 3 enemies is terribly inconsistent with implications, statements, and standing lore. Taking an extreme example, nothing like Grym (the boss from Act One in Grymforge) should be able to exist below Low 7-B, as the strength of a golem is usually discernible by its size and material. Grym is forged from Adamantine but is notably significantly smaller than the lore-existent Adamantine Golem (which is good because those guys are Tier 6 and I wouldn't want to explain that). He is of appropriate size to confidently state that he's above Iron Golems, and yet he is listed as like Level 6- this is lower than people like Gekh Coal, even, and is mixed with a lot of statements that suggest Low 7-B would be definitely more appropriate: lore texts referring to Grymforge talk about this thing like it is unbeatable and extremely powerful by ostensibly knowledgeable people.

Currently, I have Grym listed as At least 9-A, likely far higher, possibly Low 7-B, but I don't think this amends the issue. I think we ought to consider Grym outright to be a Low 7-B scaling to an inferior type of golem. This comes after considerations with other lore inconsistencies- like Vlaakith considering her inquisitor to be an incredibly potent guy despite being, stated level-wise, on-par with relatively low-tier Githyanki warriors. I could look past the Kithrak of the Act One Creche being only 9-A, as it seems to be implied that she's a shitty Kithrak anyways, but the Inquisitor has no reason to be considered so low (given that he seems to be commanding multiple Kithraks, such as Voss, he'd likely scale to their normal level, which is At least High 8-C, likely 8-B, possibly 8-A, noting here that Voss is definitely significantly stronger than normal Kithraks).

There's also problems the other way down: where normal Flaming Fist mercenaries in BG3 seem to have been given levels like 9 or 10 despite being rank and file people and earlier lore stuff establishing their membership as usually levels 3 to 5- it's noted in 5e that most Flaming Fist are equal to the Veteran statblock (CR 3). So having all of the Flaming Fists in existence jump from 9-B/9-A to strongly 8-C is madness. Ulder Ravengard being level 11 isn't complete madness, but it represents a helluva buff.

So, that's the situation. I plan to post these pages presently, but if you have strong thoughts one way or the other, share 'em if you like. It's a vaguer situation than D&D normally deals in so everyone is welcome to give their opinion if they have one worth giving.

 

[PsychoWarper]

Tbh I feel like lore, feats and statements should have more importance then levels for tiering enemies in BG3, now obviously it shouldnt be ignored and should be considered but if the lore and feats are pointing to one thing but its level is a bit different I think it would be fine to maybe overlook the level and just regard that as video game stuff (Where things are restricted to certain levels of power due to making the game actually playable and beatable).

I dont feel super strongingly about this and am not against using levels obviously but I feel like they shouldnt be the end all especially if more things point to it being wrong.

Looking at Grym it doesnt particularly take much to say Grym is SIGNIFICANTLY stronger then any level 6, hell without the lava you legitimately cant even harm him.

 

[Tllmbrg]

Yah I feel like in here level scaling should be used as a last method of scaling rather than the primary
So anyone who doesn't have some lore behind them to justify higher or lower power gets scaled to levels while the rest go by lore/feats

 

[Lou_change]

Would the increase in hardness magic items have be damage reduction or just increased durability?

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Would the increase in hardness magic items have be damage reduction or just increased durability?

Man, never even saw this question.

Tough call, it's really just an increase in durability for that.

Now, for what I came to announce: the first batch of Baldur's Gate 3 pages are published, twelve of the ******* ranging in importance from a frog I thought was funny to everybody's favorite Auntie

The following is a spoiler based on my understanding of the game:

Spoiler: Spoilers for Baldur's Gate 3 about scaling

Insofar as I can tell, in spite of in-game levels, the upper echelons of characters playable and combatable in this game are Tier 6, most notably characters like Jaheira who should scale to BG2 maximum levels, which would be about level 30ish, as well as of course the Netherbrain, which is regarded as a particularly potent Elder Brain, which vary in potency from Low 7-B to 6-B. This is consistent with other carry-overs from other Baldur's Gate entries, such as the appearance of the Slayer, which as far as I'm aware can be considered At least Low 6-B, likely 6-B via scaling to Jon Irenicus, the antagonist of the second title.

 

[Lou_change]

So, weapons of legacy have the most niche durability negation and power absorption?

 

[CrackerVolley]

Hey, is there a reason why the Almiraj doesn't have CR scaling, or is it just outdated?

 

[Tllmbrg]

Hey, is there a reason why the Almiraj doesn't have CR scaling, or is it just outdated?

CR 0 doesn't scale to anything inherently so

 

[Lou_change]

So it seems I was mistaken on the sea zombie thing earlier, but they go from swimming, foul smelling, unexplained disease carrying, telepaths to trading their odor, disease, and telepathy for a suffocation aura to trading the aura and their ability to swim for an explained disease and their telepathic back. I know creatures have changed across editions but I can't say they're good swimmers and completely unable to swim at the same time.

 

[PsychoWarper]

Man, never even saw this question.

Tough call, it's really just an increase in durability for that.

Now, for what I came to announce: the first batch of Baldur's Gate 3 pages are published, twelve of the ******* ranging in importance from a frog I thought was funny to everybody's favorite Auntie

The following is a spoiler based on my understanding of the game:

Spoiler: Spoilers for Baldur's Gate 3 about scaling

Insofar as I can tell, in spite of in-game levels, the upper echelons of characters playable and combatable in this game are Tier 6, most notably characters like Jaheira who should scale to BG2 maximum levels, which would be about level 30ish, as well as of course the Netherbrain, which is regarded as a particularly potent Elder Brain, which vary in potency from Low 7-B to 6-B. This is consistent with other carry-overs from other Baldur's Gate entries, such as the appearance of the Slayer, which as far as I'm aware can be considered At least Low 6-B, likely 6-B via scaling to Jon Irenicus, the antagonist of the second title.

Frog hype

 

[Mr. Bambu]

So it seems I was mistaken on the sea zombie thing earlier, but they go from swimming, foul smelling, unexplained disease carrying, telepaths to trading their odor, disease, and telepathy for a suffocation aura to trading the aura and their ability to swim for an explained disease and their telepathic back. I know creatures have changed across editions but I can't say they're good swimmers and completely unable to swim at the same time.

Sometimes you get a full retcon (easy example is Firbolgs) and sometimes those aren't explained. I'm curious which edition describes them as being unable to swim, however, if that's the primary objective contradiction, seeing as swimming is the main distinction between Drowned Ones and normal zombies.

 

[Lou_change]

5th edition notably none use either common name drowned one or sea zombie, the "one" part of the first is replaced with a title including and limited to ascetic, assassin, blade, and master. The first 3 have the "Bottom Treader" trait below
"The drowned cannot swim, and it sinks to the bottom of any body of water. It takes no penalties to its movement or attacks underwater. It is immune to the effects of being underwater at a depth greater than 100 feet."

The Drown master can swim but doesn't have a swim speed and has shadow tentacles instead of legs.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

So 5e just replaces swimming with walking along the bottom of the ocean? More of a tweak than a contradiction, I'd just use the 5e rendition as the most recent.

 

[Lou_change]

The problem is explicitly good swimmers versus can't swim at all since there are no normal ones in 5e would just making them keys separate from the original noting that they can't swim work?

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Unlikely, more probable that they were just changed. Editions are additive, not overwritten- the contents of old editions are added upon by the new. So I would argue that something caused them to be changed, and that they now don't swim- they walk along the bottom of the water.

 

[CrackerVolley]

CR 0 doesn't scale to anything inherently so

I was looking at this again because I was convinced they were CR 1/4 but as I turns out I was looking at a homebrew wiki.

 

[Kingofwolves999]

Question: shouldn’t any “At least Low 6-B, likely 6-B” character noted as stronger than the calc just be straight up 6-B? 6.87 is basically baseline 6-B anyways, so someone like Iggwilv who is notably stronger than Father Llymic should just upscale no?

 

[CrackerVolley]

Oh right also I'm planning on making a matchup for one of the 1/4 CR enemies against a sentient stock race car.

I'm currently mulling over a Lizardfolk, a Kenku Ringleader, or an Anchorite of Talos. Which do you think would be the funniest?

 

[CrackerVolley]

Wait I just realized something else that would be way funnier.

 

[CrackerVolley]

Sega Hornet vs Rust Monster is a thread now.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Question: shouldn’t any “At least Low 6-B, likely 6-B” character noted as stronger than the calc just be straight up 6-B? 6.87 is basically baseline 6-B anyways, so someone like Iggwilv who is notably stronger than Father Llymic should just upscale no?

This is the entire reason we do "likely 6-B" in the first place. It's likely you're right, not concrete.

I was looking at this again because I was convinced they were CR 1/4 but as I turns out I was looking at a homebrew wiki.

HAH

Sega Hornet vs Rust Monster is a thread now.

This is the funnier option, yes.

 

[Kingofwolves999]

This is the entire reason we do "likely 6-B" in the first place. It's likely you're right, not concrete.


HAH


This is the funnier option, yes.

Well, that’s dependent on which calc is used right? But regardless of the method, anyone stronger than Father Llymic would be 6-B. Or is there another reason they can’t just upscale from him?

At worst that would mean they should be likely 6-B with no mention of Low 6-B since they’re upscaling from that value anyway.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Why would you want to ignore it entirely, anyways? I don't see the value in not mentioning it.

 

[Kingofwolves999]

Why would you want to ignore it entirely, anyways? I don't see the value in not mentioning it.

Mainly just how I view upscaling and cutting down text? It just doesn't seem necessary to have the Low 6-B when, regardless of whether Llymic is Low 6-B or 6-B, anyone stronger than him should be upscaling.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

The text isn't big and I think it's safer to leave the profiles as they are, same reason we did it before. Yes, upscaling exists, but the wiki tends to cut down on moving to actually higher tiers as a result of it, and even in extreme cases like this one (where they upscale from a value very close to the top of its given tier), it is more concrete to say that they may still be restrained to said tier, hence "At least Low 6-B, likely 6-B".

 

[Axl233]

Quick question, whats your guys favorite PC that any of you have played? (could be from any from any edition)

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Quick question, whats your guys favorite PC that any of you have played? (could be any from any edition)

I would have to offer two, both from 3.5e, because one was started a long time ago (2013ish) and the other only recently, when I finally got to play again.

Mogar Briarfoot was a Human Fighter and my first real crack at a player character, when I was a kid playing in a game ran by my dad (who had run D&D for about 35 years at that point). He was also a child, because I wanted someone like me, except he was 6'6'' (randomly rolled height) and had a 20 Strength/6 Intelligence. On his many adventures, he became briefly braindead, managed to die about twenty times in a single session, learned the power of sticking swords into skulls, wasted an entire wish spell, and eventually became the lord of a minor city in the Yeomanry (a territory of the Greyhawk setting). Mogar was played for over six years, and we eventually got to epic level content- my only character to do so starting from level 1. He took an interest in mage slaying, as he was the only party member to not have magical abilities of his own, and ended up in a massive party civil war as a neutral party that assisted those who sought balance and peace. He had an army that followed him and ultimately he was one of the few not consumed by the conflict between the New and Old Guardians, instead forming his own faction based in his city, referred to as the Hunters, whose primary interest lay in dealing with these grander conflicts and hunting down threats for the sake of the common people. Mogar ended as a 42nd level character, all put into Fighter.

Imastrius Kulgar was a Hobgoblin Cleric dedicated to the god Shevarash, who was once a member of a goblin kingdom that was pushed into the Underdark by topside forces that had abused their weaknesses. In the Underdark, his people were captured and enslaved and pitilessly abused by the denizens of the lightless realm, with Imastrius falling into the hands of the drow for several months until one of his comrades caused a stir, and he managed to escape to the surface. Found by elves, he took up their god of revenge, for the two shared a hatred for the drow and their evil ways. A cleric wielder of the longbow, Imastrius took up adventuring to prepare himself for an encounter with the drow, ultimately finding and slaying Durrn, another hobgoblin who was once a member of the same goblin kingdom Imastrius was born to- Durrn revealed that he had been responsible for trading off the weaknesses of the kingdom in return for riches and amnesty, and didn't recognize Imastrius when he saw him. It was Imastrius who slew the Traitor-Bastard. Only ran him for a small time but it was great fun under @Drite77 as the DM, @Armorchompy even made a page for the guy on FC/OC.

 

[Kingofwolves999]

Quick question, whats your guys favorite PC that any of you have played? (could be from any from any edition)

My current PC, Kazan Mualtio, is definitely my favorite played character. Been playing her for 2+ years now and still going.

The daughter of a gang lord, she became a pirate at 6 when her family died and did nothing but prepare for retaking her homeland from the other gang lords by building her notoriety until she felt ready to come back. But she ran into the party and everything changed as, after an incident with a bag of holding into another bag of holding, they decided to see if they could find a way into the Astral Plane and become Astral Pirates. Long story short, we needed crystals, blew up 1/3rd of the dwarven navy after robbing their stores under the guise of health inspectors, and sailed to a different continent in search of answers to a book Kazan was given. We met Leviathan who decided to go and kill the singular god that existed on the Material Plane, the Great Wyrm, and tasked us with reviving dead gods from the past in order to fix reality and defeating the beings that made the Great Wyrm in order to control the diminished population. As it turns out, we're in Feyrun but the future after a wizard unleashed a calamity that killed all the gods and broke all of reality.

After that it was a bunch of other adventuring with insane things. We've delved the underdark, nearly died on a Lich's island, revived a god of rats, revived the Raven Queen, my character is apparently the granddaughter of Baba Yaga and is currently Queen of the Witches, I pulled 3 wishes from a deck of many things and revived my parents, used a super powerful artifact to banish a still living Asmodeus out of the Material Plane entirely, and we just got done with a war against a society of dragon riding paladins that rode Ancient Dragons on par with an alive Dragotha, which ended with a new Sun God replacing Lothander's name across all time, after we nearly sundered every dimension by stabbing the concept of the sun with a Blade of Disaster spawned from a revived Vecna who is our friend because he has no other choice.

We just turned level 17/18

 

[SlendVeny]

Quick question, whats your guys favorite PC that any of you have played? (could be from1 any from any edition)

My first guy. He's a Half-Orc Barbarian from a campaig where the first batch of characters were just jacked. His whole thing is that he's actually a very calm and intelligent guy, despite stereotypes, and he wanted to train future adventurers. I unironically didn't use Rage until like level 6, and I think I was playing like 8 characters at once last time I ran that campaign.

 

[Armorchompy]

Quick question, whats your guys favorite PC that any of you have played? (could be from any from any edition)

I haven't had anything I played in last long enough to sort of be more than "neat" but I would submit Gur-Shaak from the same campaign as Bambu's Imastrius. She was a Jungle Orc (not half-orc, full orc) Barbarian with 20 strength and 7 intelligence, and I like to think I struck a good enough balance at playing her as somewhat of an idiot without being too annoying. Plus she was just fun to play because she would trip someone, kill them in one hit, get a second attack and kill someone else in one hit on basically every turn, I think she probably had as much of a body count as the rest of the party combined (though our Druid definitely ended up carrying way more on the harder fights).

I don't think I'm 100% happy with her as a whole but my first character, Lilli a Fairy Rogue, had a pretty fun (read: absolutely ******* abysmal but in a fun way) ending, her cleric friend died while they were trying to stop some bad guy, so she literally just made a deal with a devil (thanks to a very conveniently nearby item) to revive her, and what the devil was probably expecting was to bring her misfortune through the cursed hoard she also got, but then she left in shame and the cleric gave away all of that cursed money to poor people which means literally the entire country got hit with the curse. The bad guy that they failed to stop ended up causing tens of thousands of deaths before being stopped, the cursed money caused hundreds of thousands with no obvious end to the misery in sight. And then a devil came knocking at her door.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Very pleased with Lilli's ending, one of the most glorious cascading tragedies I've ever DM'd for.