Tabletop Games Based On Other Tabletop Games

[Mr. Bambu]

Been contemplating this one for awhile- I feel it is almost definitely fine, but a thread should be made to establish that as fact.

The Context
Tabletop roleplaying games were fathered by Dungeons and Dragons. In 2000, after many years of success and wanting to see their work expand, Dungeons and Dragons owners Wizards of the Coast released what is called the SRD (System Reference Document), basically establishing those core rules as free to the public- not only to use for gameplay purposes, but for the creation of entirely new games from the system referred to, publicly, as the d20 system.

The Issue At Hand
In doing so it allowed other verses to be spawned from the rules released, entirely independent of WotC oversight and very much heading in their own creative directions- most notable amongst these are Pathfinder and Call of Cthulhu, two extremely popular games today. These games have their foundations on D&D, and use a substantial part of its rulesets, but are totally independent of the game otherwise. They are privately owned and maintained by their respective companies (Paizo and Chaosium respectively).

There are other systems with similar predicaments- entire rulesets and games, and therefore verses, spawn from others by taking their rules and creating an entirely new game from them. Examples close to my heart include the many "hacks" of MÖRK BORG, such as Vast Grimm and Demon Dog, or Fleaux! taking elements from Black Sword Hack.

Each of the above games is an entirely independent creation that used some or all rules of its predecessor released for free use- they are unlinked outside of the rules binding the usage of said rules (for example, MORK BORG hacks are expected to specify that they are compatible, as well as to specify that they were not made by Stockholm Kartell, etc etc).

The Question
With all of the above explained and out of the way, here is the question: May I, or others, make verses for these games? We have previously held one of them on-site in the form of Pathfinder, and it caused no issues, but it bears asking to set it in stone.

 

[Tllmbrg]

I don't see why not

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

I personally see absolutely 0 problem with allowing them. As long as they are oficial enough that they follow our notability criteria (so stuff like homebrews would 100% go to FC/OC wiki), shouldn't be a problem.

This is not dissimilar to RPG maker games imo. The SRD gives the tool to develop (just like the program) the world and story, and is the second part what we use to index.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I personally see absolutely 0 problem with allowing them. As long as they are oficial enough that they follow our notability criteria (so stuff like homebrews would 100% go to FC/OC wiki), shouldn't be a problem.

This is not dissimilar to RPG maker games imo. The SRD gives the tool to develop (just like the program) the world and story, and is the second part what we use to index.

RPG Maker is an apt comparison, I think, aye.

 

[Rikimarox2]

This is similar to RPG maker shenanigans. To be honest, I see no problem with making verses for these games.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Question, would this make stuff like completely original D&D campaigns allowed? Ones that are original from the ground up?

 

[Imaginym]

I'd like to know about how this may affect the viability of making a 'verse for when non-game media use this system.

One particular example on my mind is Order of the Stick, a webcomic, which in-universe, uses the D&D 3.5E, as it started out as a comic in Dragon Magazine before becoming a webcomic, & developed a fairly coherent narrative of its own, but still uses the D&D ruleset in-universe, with little variation.
The author, Rich Burlew, even wrote for WotC at one point, if my memory serves correctly.

Would this be considered a derivative work? Would it be allowed to use D&D elements in the construction of its 'verse? Or would the mechanics for the verse have to be assumed to be distinct from D&D 3.5 (Despite that they canonically aren't much supposed to be.) & thus, mechanics would have to be inferred entirely from in-universe context.
Ex: Figure out what a critical hit or a "bad roll" is, as opposed to just assuming they mean the D&D definition of such things.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Question, would this make stuff like completely original D&D campaigns allowed? Ones that are original from the ground up?

I would say no, as they are still dependent on D&D as a whole. So stuff like Odyssey of the Dragonlords is still fan-content of D&D proper, rather than its own entirely original game. That would be my take, at least, open to counterpoints on that front.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I'd like to know about how this may affect the viability of making a 'verse for when non-game media use this system.

One particular example on my mind is Order of the Stick, a webcomic, which in-universe, uses the D&D 3.5E, as it started out as a comic in Dragon Magazine before becoming a webcomic, & developed a fairly coherent narrative of its own, but still uses the D&D ruleset in-universe, with little variation.
The author, Rich Burlew, even wrote for WotC at one point, if my memory serves correctly.

Would this be considered a derivative work? Would it be allowed to use D&D elements in the construction of its 'verse? Or would the mechanics for the verse have to be assumed to be distinct from D&D 3.5 (Despite that they canonically aren't much supposed to be.) & thus, mechanics would have to be inferred entirely from in-universe context.
Ex: Figure out what a critical hit or a "bad roll" is, as opposed to just assuming they mean the D&D definition of such things.

Order of the Stick isn't really based on the SRD. I don't know much about it, but I do know it contains non-SRD content (such as a Beholder), which would make it just fanfiction as opposed to its own unique identity- Beholders are held privately by WotC still.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

I would say no, as they are still dependent on D&D as a whole. So stuff like Odyssey of the Dragonlords is still fan-content of D&D proper, rather than its own entirely original game. That would be my take, at least, open to counterpoints on that front.

I mean, it would be in the same vein as Critical Role, just without the Wizards partnership

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

I'd like to know about how this may affect the viability of making a 'verse for when non-game media use this system.

One particular example on my mind is Order of the Stick, a webcomic, which in-universe, uses the D&D 3.5E, as it started out as a comic in Dragon Magazine before becoming a webcomic, & developed a fairly coherent narrative of its own, but still uses the D&D ruleset in-universe, with little variation.
The author, Rich Burlew, even wrote for WotC at one point, if my memory serves correctly.

Would this be considered a derivative work? Would it be allowed to use D&D elements in the construction of its 'verse? Or would the mechanics for the verse have to be assumed to be distinct from D&D 3.5 (Despite that they canonically aren't much supposed to be.) & thus, mechanics would have to be inferred entirely from in-universe context.
Ex: Figure out what a critical hit or a "bad roll" is, as opposed to just assuming they mean the D&D definition of such things.

From my personal reading of OotS (which thanks, reminds me I should continue, lol): The story doesn't follow D&D lore, nor makes any reference to it in any form. It makes a parody of the 3.5 rules and references the rules in a meta context, but since it doesn't need D&D itself (the brand, nor its copyright or canon), I would consider it's in line with the other examples in the op: As in, it's using the SRD and expanding from there. Combined with the fact it undeniable is notable enough to be featured, should be a-ok.

 

[Imaginym]

Order of the Stick isn't really based on the SRD. I don't know much about it, but I do know it contains non-SRD content (such as a Beholder), which would make it just fanfiction as opposed to its own unique identity- Beholders are held privately by WotC still.

IIRC, they actually point that out, with in-universe lawyers bringing it up that they can't use that, & much later, when a Beholder did appear, they actively avoid saying its real name precisely because of that Beholder copyright matter.

From my personal reading of OotS (which thanks, reminds me I should continue, lol): The story doesn't follow D&D lore, nor makes any reference to it in any form. It makes a parody of the 3.5 rules and references the rules in a meta context, but since it doesn't need D&D itself (the brand, nor its copyright or canon), I would consider it's in line with the other examples in the op: As in, it's using the SRD and expanding from there. Combined with the fact it undeniable is notable enough to be featured, should be a-ok.

Thank you for your opinion on this matter.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I mean, it would be in the same vein as Critical Role, just without the Wizards partnership

The Wizards partnership is a fairly major point, I think you'll find.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Order of the Stick isn't really based on the SRD. I don't know much about it, but I do know it contains non-SRD content (such as a Beholder), which would make it just fanfiction as opposed to its own unique identity- Beholders are held privately by WotC still.

Correction: It's a licensed parody of the rules of the game and it's creatures, with it's own distinct narrative. It started out as merely a bunch of meta jokes, but evolved to include an actual original story with lore.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

If it is genuinely free from anything legally questionable, then yeah, it'd probably be fine. Though discussion of intricacies would probably do for its own thread since, while it is sort of adjacent to the matters tackled by this thread, it isn't really the same situation.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

If it is genuinely free from anything legally questionable, then yeah, it'd probably be fine.

100%, it's even published on its own, without any ties to Wizards or Hasbro whatsoever.

Though discussion of intricacies would probably do for its own thread since, while it is sort of adjacent to the matters tackled by this thread, it isn't really the same situation.

Fair enough.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

The Wizards partnership is a fairly major point, I think you'll find.

Why so?

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Well it gives Exandria permission to use all of its copyrighted material- Vecna, for example. Individual campaigns also suffer from the fact that they aren't their own games- they aren't totally independent. You need the 5e core rules to run Odyssey of the Dragonlords, you don't need any D&D books to run any edition of Pathfinder.

 

[Deagonx]

We have previously held one of them on-site in the form of Pathfinder

Do we no longer have Pathfinder on the site?

 

[Armorchompy]

I agree with OP for sure, it's essentially the same as using an open source engine for a game.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Do we no longer have Pathfinder on the site?

Was deleted some time ago for extremely poor page quality.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Well it gives Exandria permission to use all of its copyrighted material- Vecna, for example. Individual campaigns also suffer from the fact that they aren't their own games- they aren't totally independent. You need the 5e core rules to run Odyssey of the Dragonlords, you don't need any D&D books to run any edition of Pathfinder.

Ye, the verse im referring to, The Unexpectables, doesnt really use much outside of the core rules for combat, and even then those are adjusted to the DM's specifications as a blend of 3.5e and 5e. It has its own original pantheon of gods and a completely original setting and everything.

 

[Artorimachi_Meteoraft]

I agree with the OP based on @LephyrTheRevanchist’s reasoning

That as long as it’s official enough it doesn’t break our rules regarding FC/OC. Also having a consistent lore and it not violating copyright rules also helps.

 

[Shmooply]

I share the same sentiment as everyone else here, this is basically the tabletop equivalent of making a video game on a famous engine that everyone and their mother already uses. Agreed.

 

[Armorchompy]

Ye, the verse im referring to, The Unexpectables, doesnt really use much outside of the core rules for combat, and even then those are adjusted to the DM's specifications as a blend of 3.5e and 5e. It has its own original pantheon of gods and a completely original setting and everything.

I'll defer to Bambu's judgment but that does feel unique enough to count as its own page, to me, given some of the stuff we allow.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I'll take a deeper look into the specific verse later, same as OotS, may benefit from a more specific thread for it than broadening what this one aims to do.

EDIT: After a cursory look-through, The Unexpectables is a D&D podcast (and presents itself as such, rather than establishing itself as something different) using fully copyright-protected IP (Kenkus and such). I would say it wouldn't be allowed based on that.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Not like it needed to be said again but I agree with the OP. Now, if only I had the time to fix up the Pathfinder profiles.....

 

[WeeklyBattles]

I'll take a deeper look into the specific verse later, same as OotS, may benefit from a more specific thread for it than broadening what this one aims to do.

EDIT: After a cursory look-through, The Unexpectables is a D&D podcast (and presents itself as such, rather than establishing itself as something different) using fully copyright-protected IP (Kenkus and such). I would say it wouldn't be allowed based on that.

Kenku arent copyrighted though, plus Kenku in the unexpectables can be any species of bird, not just ravens, and the race as a whole has a completely original background for its existence and culture

The only D&D creatures that are hard copyrighted are Beholder, Gauth, Carrion crawler, Displacer beast, Githyanki, Githzerai, Kuo-toa, Mind flayer, Slaad, Umber hulk and Yuan-ti.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

and the race as a whole has a completely original background for its existence and culture

This is the only relevant bit. If they don't have an ounce of D&D copyrighted material (i.e., anything that appears on an official book, whether creature description or lore that's not flavor text as part of the SRD), only then would it be fair game.

Edit: However, as Bambu raised, the fact they present themselves as a D&D-based podcast would suggest their changes are intended as homebrew material, which would fall more in line with fanfiction than an original published setting.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

This is the only relevant bit. If they don't have an ounce of D&D copyrighted material (i.e., anything that appears on an official book, whether creature description or lore that's not flavor text as part of the SRD), only then would it be fair game.

Edit: However, as Bambu raised, the fact they present themselves as a D&D-based podcast would suggest their changes are intended as homebrew material, which would fall more in line with fanfiction than an original published setting.

It uses a modified version of the D&D combat system (blending mechanics from 3.5e and 5e) as a framework but the setting itself is wholly original, as is the lore for basically every species in the game as it was written for the story itself, not using the lore from D&D.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Not like it needed to be said again but I agree with the OP. Now, if only I had the time to fix up the Pathfinder profiles.....

If enough folks came together I do feel rather certain that Pathfinder could be remade in a few months time. There's a good amount of stuff to work through and I don't think they would be perfect but you could definitely bring them up to par with D&D, there's a good amount of interested parties, I think.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

If enough folks came together I do feel rather certain that Pathfinder could be remade in a few months time. There's a good amount of stuff to work through and I don't think they would be perfect but you could definitely bring them up to par with D&D, there's a good amount of interested parties, I think.

Feel free to let me know who else is interested, I would like to help out some if possible though I mostly just need an excuse to restart my TTRPG phase.

By the way, for future reference, I'm pretty sure this is what the most recent version of the SRD says about what's not allowed:

"The following items are designated Product Identity, as defined in Section 1(e) of the Open Game License Version 1.0a, and are subject to the conditions set forth in Section 7 of the OGL, and are not Open Content: Dungeons & Dragons, D&D, Player’s Handbook, Dungeon Master, Monster Manual, d20 System, Wizards of the Coast, d20 (when used as a trademark), Forgotten Realms, Faerûn, proper names (including those used in the names of spells or items), places, Underdark, Red Wizard of Thay, the City of Union, Heroic Domains of Ysgard, Ever-Changing Chaos of Limbo, Windswept Depths of Pandemonium, Infinite Layers of the Abyss, Tarterian Depths of Carceri, Gray Waste of Hades, Bleak Eternity of Gehenna, Nine Hells of Baator, Infernal Battlefield of Acheron, Clockwork Nirvana of Mechanus, Peaceable Kingdoms of Arcadia, Seven Mounting Heavens of Celestia, Twin Paradises of Bytopia, Blessed Fields of Elysium, Wilderness of the Beastlands, Olympian Glades of Arborea, Concordant Domain of the Outlands, Sigil, Lady of Pain, Book of Exalted Deeds, Book of Vile Darkness, beholder, gauth, carrion crawler, tanar’ri, baatezu, displacer beast, githyanki, githzerai, mind flayer, illithid, umber hulk, yuan‑ti."

Kenku are in a weird spot tbh because it doesn't seem like they're copyrighted but Pathfinder still calls them Tengu anyways. They also don't seem to be in the 3.5e SRD, though I may be misreading the page Bambu originally leaked.

 

[Duedate8898]

I think since what is ultimately the foundation of these verses is just their mechanics, where the characters and creatures are largely devoid of being fanworks of the D&D setting, they should be fine to be added to the wiki.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I think this looks good.

 

[Zaratthustra]

Agree as long as completely original D&D campaigns aren't allowed but just canon games.

Edit: I have saved the Pathfinder profiles before they got deleted as I wanted to remake them once I get some time (idk what year or era).

Sandbox

 

[WeeklyBattles]

For reference, the Unexpectables is original to the point that aasimar hybrids are common characters in the setting (The current sequel campaign even has one of the players being a halfling/aasimar hybrid)