Elminster vs. Tezzeret

[Moritzva]

@Dargoo Can you specify what they can do with prep time? Or else we have each of them setting a death trap for the moment battle starts, and possibly going out of their way to destroy enemy prep, and a complicated rabbit hole from there.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

The main difference in power null here is that D&D's doesn't affect causality manip. If you can show me an instance of Tezz' power null affecting causality manip, then we have a talking point.

Also, Dargoo... it is hard to ignore the advantages granted to Tezz from the OP of this match. Physically speaking, Tezz is 7.7x faster and has the ability advantage as far as the chosen arena.

I do believe Elminster wins this, at least until someone shows me Tezz negging Causality Manip, but those two facts are decently hard to ignore.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Also, Dargoo... it is hard to ignore the advantages granted to Tezz from the OP of this match. Physically speaking, Tezz is 7.7x faster and has the ability advantage as far as the chosen arena.

I do believe Elminster wins this, at least until someone shows me Tezz negging Causality Manip, but those two facts are decently hard to ignore.

Tezz negged Clone-Bolas' Clockworking, actually. Although, it wasn't with timehax as it was Tezz making a mental block in Clone-Bolas' mind preventing him from using it.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Then it's a bit different. That's preventative, not stopping the act after it happened.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

I mean, if Elm actually pulls off causality hax, it's not like Tezz can do something after the fact.

Hence why he can prevent it from being cast as it's being cast, or outright prevent Elm from casting it through different methods.

Also keep in mind, even if Elm resists the causality hax, the timeline they are in doesn't. There's a lot of leeway Tezz can work with there.

 

[Moritzva]

Dargoo brings up a good point. Unless Elm can beat this,

Most interesting of all was his ability to see sideways in time. With the expenditure of considerable mana—easily done, given my current plenitude of etherium—he (and I, through him) could directly perceive the consequence of any given choice or string of choices, as the temporal streams bifurcated outward from each decision point. The more probable any given potential time line was, the easier it was to see.

It did not take much power at all to see time lines where Renn had won the fight.

I had decided not to tell Baltrice what would have happened to her if we'd lost. If she had so much as a hint, I could never have stopped her from killing Renn, and I was going to need him to navigate the Labyrinth.

Having left intact the magics that sustained his life and healed his injuries, I anticipated a virtually unlimited potential use-life for my Rennoscope (Rennscanner? Rennometer?). All his physical needs provided by the magics, he might well survive a century or more, which was far longer than I would need him. (Credit to Dargoo for sourcing this for me).

...I fear Elm just won't be able to out-plan Tezzeret. He's asking questions, while Tezzeret can see everything.

Even assuming he can't pick a timeline to jump to, he can still make the actions that lead him to win the most amount of times. And as he was able to defeat Clone!Bolas' Clockworking, that is a feat of being able to prevent causality hax, meaning there's little reason Tezzeret can't do the same for Elm.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

So his precognition becomes worse the less likely it is. If Elm has the advantage, which he does and this makes little difference to, then this is inconsequential.

It also seems he cannot manipulate things directly. Merely try to change them.

No, he can't just "make the actions" because the larger the advantage the enemy has, the worse he is at perceiving it. Elm resists his hax and just has to speak at him.

My vote remains the same.

 

[Moritzva]

We just listed a multitude of reasons why Elm couldn't pull off Wish- most notably, that Tezz was able to stop causality hax.

So not only does Tezz have better use of prep time due to precog, but he has a confirmed way of dealing with causality manip.

Tezz wins, and unless evidence comes up to defeat Tezz countering/power nulling Wish (Since he could stop a Bolas Clone's Clockworking), all votes using Wish as a ground can't count.

 

[Udlmaster]

>We just listed a multitude of reasons why Elm couldn't pull off Wish- most notably, that Tezz was able to stop causality hax.

Wish isn't just Causality hax, it's Reality Warping as well.

>Tezz wins, and unless evidence comes up to defeat Tezz countering/power nulling Wish (Since he could stop a Bolas Clone's Clockworking), all votes using Wish as a ground can't count.

I already went over how Elm holds a portion of Mystra's power and how he could be something called the "Magister" which has these:

• A complete immunity to enchantment, and a +2 holy resistance to all magical effects
• Spell Resistance 20
• The ability to sense wild or dead magic zones
• They can hear whenever their name gets mentioned anywhere in the world along with the following nine words and the general direction of the speaker
• constant Mindblank protection
• The ability to cast levitate, true seeing, read magic and feather fall at will, and cast dimension door and water walk 6/day
• They can pass through ANY magical barrier of 6th level or lower without ill effect
• Complete immunity to a chosen spell of each spell level
• The ability to imbue permanency on any spell they know
• They get Spell Focus for every spell
• They prepare their spells in ten minutes.

So to go over: Tezz cannot use his Illusions to affect him anymore. The ability to give himself permanency to ANY of his protection spells, meaning that his Prep time went from: "Good" to "I win" levels. A Spell Focus makes his spells MUCH more stronger, for every spell (Spell type that is) it would make all of his spell both harder to dispell for one, and when it comes to Wish, obliterate Tezz 110% of the time instead of 100% of the time.

You also brought up how Wizards have low Fort saves? Well...

"Chosen of Mystra gain many benefits from her blessing, but there are a few notable powers that they gain. Obviously, they all have a greater command of the magic they wield, seeming to be able to cast more often with less effort. They also become more familiar with magic; able to detect its presence. In addition, many also develop immunities to magic, and eventually immunities to disease and poison. They become much more hardy, showing a toughness uncharacteristic of most mages."

As well, Elm can use the Silver Fire which would heal him, which healed him from much more powerful beings, namely a Lord of Hell, and obliterates thoses who are even NEAR the flame.

Additionally as a Chosen of Mystra, his magic is VASTLY stronger than a normal Wizard with all his level ANYWAY.

 

[Moritzva]

Sure. That'll make it more fair. But if Wish is a nonissue or less of an issue at all, which we have put forward Tezz can very likely counter or negate before the spell is cast or while it's being said or whenever he finds it best, Tezz can just dedicate his prep to dealing with Wish and AP, or whatever Elm is less likely to prepare for. Elm's prep time is incredible, I know; but Tezz can see the future. He will know how the battle most likely plays out.

Elm's precog or information gathering just isn't as good as that.

Tezz can, if needed, send needles into his brain and make scrambled eggs, and Elm can't stop that. I didn't see anything about Chosen of Mystra on Elm's profile, but sure, that evens things a lot.

Wish is a spell that is capable of negating all resistances and reactive powernull; after it's cast. There has been nothing shown Wish, specifically, can be cast through powernull or can't be countered.

Just because Wish can penetrate any and all defenses and reactionary power null doesn't mean it will work when the caster can't use the spell.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Tezz can't imo, so that's out. Tezz can only see the most likely futures. He won't be informed of what actions he must take in order to win.

Yes it is.

Speaking is faster.

Wish isn't affected by in-verse power null, and it can be, just not by Tezz from what I can see.

Elm can use it though.

 

[Udlmaster]

>Sure. That'll make it more fair. But if Wish is a nonissue or less of an issue at all, which we have put forward Tezz can very likely counter or negate before the spell is cast or while it's being said or whenever he finds it best, Tezz can just dedicate his prep to dealing with Wish and AP, or whatever Elm is less likely to prepare for. Elm's prep time is incredible, I know; but Tezz can see the future. He will know how the battle most likely plays out.

Elm's precog or information gathering just isn't as good as that.

What do you mean? Mystra will be actively helping him, literally telling him every outcome in advance, it literally counter's Tezz' Precog advantage entirely.

>Tezz can, if needed, send needles into his brain and make scrambled eggs, and Elm can't stop that. I didn't see anything about Chosen of Mystra on Elm's profile, but sure, that evens things a lot.

At at distance? Wish goes off first.

>Wish is a spell that is capable of negating all resistances and reactive powernull; after it's cast. There has been nothing shown Wish, specifically, can be cast through powernull or can't be countered.

You mean like a Mantle or Dead Zone? Because Elm ignores Dead Zones with his connection to the Weave, a 2-A source. And with his blessing from Mystra lets him ignore mantles.

>Just because Wish can penetrate any and all defenses and reactionary power null doesn't mean it will work when the caster can't use the spell.

Do you know what a DC is? In the game, if you tried to counter a spell with Dispel magic or Counter magic, you'd have to beat it's DC, now, because you was so adament in using "Counter magic can stop wish" allow me to return the favour in this way.

The DC for Wish as both a Chosen of Mystra and the Magister would beyond Tezz' power null. How? You may ask?

Well, when he wasn't the Magister and when Mystra was dead (Meaning most magic was dead) he was able to RESSURECT MYSTRA (OG 1e/2e). And that's without his blessing from Mystra as she was dead and with magic dying and him running out of power.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Bump?

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I mean

Most discussion is exhausted, I think.

 

[Wokistan]

Honestly, I just don't have the time to read through this rn.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Basically it amounts to whether or not Tezz can restrain Elminster before Elminster speaks. Tezz is given a rather huge home-field advantage and a massive speed advantage, but they start 4km apart and Elm resists his best hax.

Elm really only has to speak to cause Wish to occur, whereas Tezz has to restrain him before he can speak a sentence.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Bump.

 

[Moritzva]

Which is possible, given Tezz would be spending his entire prep for that one situation. Could be incon- If he gets Wish off, he wins. If Tezz preps for it well enough, he wins.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I also just realized how little prep time is given... it requires Elminster like a month to get his hands on his 6-B stuff

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Which is possible, given Tezz would be spending his entire prep for that one situation. Could be incon- If he gets Wish off, he wins. If Tezz preps for it well enough, he wins.

How in the world does Tezz prep for Wish

 

[Moritzva]

I also just realized how little prep time is given... it requires Elminster like a month to get his hands on his 6-B stuff

So how might this factor into it? What won't he have and whatnot?


And really, I bargain he'd do everything in his power to make sure Wish can't be said or cast. He has a few days and he's a productive person with precog; he could likely spend a fair amount of his time preparing to bind Elm, to stop him from being able to cast it. For example, set up devices that can attack Elm, perhaps something to increase the range of his metal control, increase it's speed... Maybe he can't do everything, but he's been able to make a device capable of removing Jace's mind in minutes. Give him three days and he'll find a way around Wish.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

He won't have AP spells that can harm Tezz, which means OP should be updated. He can still gain access to other potent spells, just not his massive AP (via Ice Age and similar spells).

So his prep time requires he bind and gag Elminster or kill him before the match. His precog doesn't work when it is an unlikely future. Also, aside from the last two, your argument is pretty heavily NLF. "Oh I'm sure he can find a way." If he hasn't shown a way to prep for Causality Manip/Reality Warping and negating it, then no, he can't. That's why Doctor Doom is so stronk, he has shown how OP he can get with prep. You can't just stride in and say "Tezz will certainly find a way to do this thing he has never done before".

 

[Udlmaster]

Pretty sure the Silverfire basically wins this for Elm.

 

[Moritzva]

Tezz has found a way to shoot needles through someone's brain. Wrapping steel around his mouth is most certainly not out of his range.

Tezz could set the arena up or enhance his abilities to dispel most of Elm's enchantments (Only Wish can go through power null is what I've gathered but I may be wrong here), set up ways to increase his speed (He was able to create his own Etherium arm at a young age; enhancing his legs or other augmentations would not be implausible, ignoring even just teleporting), etc.

Heck, I even provided an example of how Tezz created a trap that completely paralyzed someone by attacking their brain. I don't think Elm would have durability or resistance to a refined version of that made to literally rip his brain into shreds, which he could certainly do since he's older and has got more experience since then. Since his AP is way higher than Elm's, he should be fine.

Tezz has a lot of options. Tripping, binding, gagging- heck, if Tezz can teleport next to Elm he could just AP stomp via much higher speeds.

It's not NLF if he's done something better. That's like saying that Dio can't stop time for only .5 seconds because he's never been shown stopping time for specifically that much.

 

[Udlmaster]

>Tezz has found a way to shoot needles through someone's brain. Wrapping steel around his mouth is most certainly not out of his range.

Silverfire can heal that, he healed all Physical and Mental damage from the Demon Princes.

>Tezz could set the arena up or enhance his abilities to dispel most of Elm's enchantments (Only Wish can go through power null is what I've gathered but I may be wrong here)

If you tried to disenchant his items, it would lead to an inconclusive because Both of them would die from the resulting explosion.

>set up ways to increase his speed (He was able to create his own Etherium arm at a young age; enhancing his legs or other augmentations would not be implausible, ignoring even just teleporting), etc.

Dimensional Anchor negates Teleportation, as well, Elm has teleportation as well and speed isn't a factor for Instantanous Silveflame or few words

>Heck, I even provided an example of how Tezz created a trap that completely paralyzed someone by attacking their brain. I don't think Elm would have durability or resistance to a refined version of that made to literally rip his brain into shreds, which he could certainly do since he's older and has got more experience since then. Since his AP is way higher than Elm's, he should be fine.

Silverflame can heal all of that, as well, Elm can resist 2-A mind hax and in his Magister form, is MASSIVE Resistance to Mind Hax.

>Tezz has a lot of options. Tripping, binding, gagging- heck, if Tezz can teleport next to Elm he could just AP stomp via much higher speeds.

Silverflame would vapourize him.

 

[Moritzva]

Could you clarify exactly what Silverflame does and what it is? This is the first time I've heard of it in this argument.

 

[Udlmaster]

I've brought it up multiple times:

"

"Elminster entered the portal and narrowly managed to close it, but at the expense of much of his magical strength. Once in Hell, he was abducted and enslaved by an outcast archdevil known as Nergal, who wished to discover the secret of Mystra's silver fire. Elminster was subject to brutal tortures, surviving only because of his exceptional endurance and ability to heal himself with silver fire. While the arch-fiend plundered Elminster's thoughts and memories, Mystra became aware of her favorite servant's plight and entered Hell herself to find him. "

22:42, October 24, 2018"

 

[Moritzva]

Interesting. Any feats for how strong it is? Is it able to heal Elm if he's already dead? Would it be able to dent Tezz's durability?

Also, I don't think literally crushing your brain counts as Mind Hax, or else Scorpion is ******* incredible at it.

Also, Dimensional Anchor does need to hit Tezz first, and it appears Elm's non-Wish spells can be powernulled, since Wish is the only one that "goes through Power Null".

How destructive would it be if his items are destroyed? How quick is it? (Could Tezz dispel and leave into the Blind Eternities to avoid the blast?)

How quick is Silverflame? If his brain is in shreds, and he's dead, will it work? How visible is it?

 

[Mr. Bambu]

1. If he dies, Clone spell takes care of that. It's common practice to have a clone. Hell, otherwise Bigby would have died dozens of times.

2. It isn't hax, but it is also a physical attack, ergo slower than words.

3. It isn't the only one. Spells that are not subject to Spell Resistance are common. Magic Missile is one of these.

4. Before he speaks?

5. I think it's passive.

 

[Moritzva]

2. Tezz has high speeds which have little reason not to be translated into combat speeds, considering a lot of his feats were taken from combat. As well, if the metal is close by and Tezz is prepared to do it, he could certainly compete with Elm talking in speeds.

4. Tezz could theoretically dispel then nope the **** out of the realm if he thought it was a viable option.

5. More details needed, if you may.

Also, yea. Clone spell. I'm not sure how that impacts the fight, and I'd need to know how many he usually has. Cloning may change my mind on this if he has enough of them.

Basically, how combat applicable is Clone?

 

[Mr. Bambu]

1. Again, if we're saying Tezz can prep right before battle, then Elm can just delay a Wish and have it launch the second the battle starts.

4. Wish affects cross dimensions.

5. Ask Udl, he's probably better read on Elm than me (I play in the setting Mordenkaine is from, not Elminster).

Clone just means you have a backup body that you automatically go to upon death. You can also make more pretty easily.

 

[Udlmaster]

>Interesting. Any feats for how strong it is? Is it able to heal Elm if he's already dead? Would it be able to dent Tezz's durability?

Strong enough that a Archdevil, who are 2-C, wanted it and was afraid of it.

>Also, I don't think literally crushing your brain counts as Mind Hax, or else Scorpion is ******* incredible at it.

Seems unlikely to happen.

>Also, Dimensional Anchor does need to hit Tezz first, and it appears Elm's non-Wish spells can be powernulled, since Wish is the only one that "goes through Power Null".

Dimensional Anchor doesn't need to "hit" it's an Area of effect spell.

>How destructive would it be if his items are destroyed? How quick is it? (Could Tezz dispel and leave into the Blind Eternities to avoid the blast?)

Instantly. Considering some of them destroy the Dimension they are in.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

depending on the archdevil they could be Low 2-C

 

[Udlmaster]

Still greater than 6-C

 

[Moritzva]

Well, that and cloning leaves me inclined to believe this is probably a stomp becuase 2-C healing plus having two of yourself in reserves makes it a bit hard to kill them. Tezz can kill one, but three? Four? One of them will get Wish off.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

>2-C healing

Hubba who?

 

[Moritzva]

They brought it up, not me.

But yea, cloning sort of makes this a stomp if it works the way I think it can. He just brings like, four of himself to the battlefield and tosses them in random directions. Tezz can't deal with four Elms all who want to cast Wish on him.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

To be fair, Tezz can make an army of automata with the wave of a hand if he can acess enough metal. He claimed said automata could be made to be superior to humans in efficiency and comparable in intelligence.

Although perfect cloning isn't something he can really do.

 

[Moritzva]

Oh, fair.

Also, I think he has enough metal since... He's literally standing on a planet of it. An entire Etherium island. The tough, rare. incredibly powerful and magical metal that his arm is made of. So yea, when it comes to metal? Yea he's fine.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Etherium weapons/automata would easily be within Tezz's AP range considering he used it to harm Bolas' clone.