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Elminster vs. Tezzeret

Dargoo_Faust

Dargoo_Faust

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Going into this relatively blind on Elminster, so let's see how this goes.

Speed is not equalized. Both have two days of preparations, and the battle takes place on the Metal Island pocket plane (An island of Etherium), and both have access to any and all their equipment.

Elminster's 6-B is 7.8 Teratons, Tezz is baseline, or 7 Teratons. Not that AP really matters here, lol.

Tezz is baseline MHS or Mach 100, Elminster is Mach 13 with Mach 64 reactions.

Elminster - 3 (Bambu, Udl, ABoogie)

Tezzeret - 1 (Pixel)

Incon -

Elminster 3
There are only two precious things on earth: the first is love; the second, a long way behind it, is intelligence.

EN GAMEINFO STORY SmallPlaneswalker T TezzerettheSeeker
To achieve what none have achieved before, one must dare what none have dared before.
 
Maybe it wasn't updated? Beats me.

On the bright side, that could probably combat Clockworking, depending on how it works.
 
As we discussed in chat. Elminster has no counter to instant thought-based causality hax wherein the user chooses a reality in which they win. A good fight will probably be had, because aside from that singular fact Elminster seems to outclass him in every way, but if he can just choose a possible reality in which he wins... Elminster has little to help him with that.
 
Wait, doesn't Elminster resist Casuality Hax? (Being able to Resist the effects of Wish)
 
Also, question:

Does he start with Causality hax?

Because if not doesn't that mean that Elim could OTKO with various Necromancy OHKO spells, Wish, Wail of the Banshee, possess him, use Weird, use a bunch of debuff spells to weaken Tezzeret?
 
Since when can Elminster resist Wish?

Also keep in mind range. Both have kilometers range at peak, so 4km is starting range.
 
You can resist Wish.

" Undo misfortune. A wish can undo a single recent event. The wish forces a reroll of any roll made within the last round (including your last turn). Reality reshapes itself to accommodate the new result. For example, a wish could undo an opponent's successful save, a foe's successful critical hit (either the attack roll or the critical roll), a friend's failed save, and so on. The reroll, however, may be as bad as or worse than the original roll. An unwilling target gets a Will save to negate the effect, and spell resistance (if any) applies." http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wish.htm
 
"

  • Transport travelers. A wish can lift one creature per caster level from anywhere on any plane and place those creatures anywhere else on any plane regardless of local conditions. An unwilling target gets a Will save to negate the effect, and spell resistance (if any) applies."
 
Oh. Nice. Didn't know that, that's actually a huge deal as it means D&D low-tiers/mid-tiers can resist pretty huge causality manip and reality warping.

Alright. If Tezz' main ability doesn't work, what does he open with next, Dargoo?
 
Considering Tezzeret's precog still works, he would see Metal-based attacks and most of his elemental attacks not working, and could open with deathhax, mindhax, or just BFRing El to the Blind Eternities which would instantly EE him unless he has resistances.
 
Yeah, he has resistances to Sealing (Imprisonment) and BFR (Maze and Wish), Death Hax (Heart Stop, Wail of the Banshee etc.) and Mind hax (Weird, Wish, Illusion school, Enchantment school)
 
So Elminster has at least somewhat decent resistances to Tezz' other abilities.

How good is Tezz mindhax?
 
Is it worth noting that our resident D&D mage has only small city durability? Tezzerret could speed blitz (Mach 100 vs Mach 64 reactions)

As well, Tezzerret with prep time could use his resources and connections to stronger beings in order to help figure out how to beat Elminster.

As well, Undo Misfortune can't be used if you're already dead, so that has to be noted.

I also don't see any resistance to existence erasure for Elm.

With Mind Resistance and powerful Death Magic (Could survive Liliana's death spells with little harm), it's possible that all Elm can do is Wish- but then again, with prep time, Tezzerret would just be sure to counter Wish over and over. Elm would run out of spell slots for Wish before Tezzerret would be unable to counter Wish.

I'd like to hear other's thoughts before voting.

Edit: The entire battle being of Etherium does give Tezz an advantage, as in any extended match he'll control the metal and use it to restrain and attack Elm. I believe Tezz can AP blitz, actually, considering Elm's low durability.
 
@Pixel Higher with prep time, but I doubt that matters in this case. Both have the ability to tear each other apart at range via hax (and do so in character) with prep time. That'd be like arguing Monika only has Tier 10 dura, ignoring her insane hax potential.

Great. Give a condition or this is bunk, because Elminster can do the same. Especially since spells exist wherein all-knowledgeable gods give you flat out answers to whatever questions you have. Moreso for Elminster, since he is directly tied to one such god (being a Chosen of Mystra, Goddess of Magic).

Okay.

Elminster with enough prep can just place Wish on items my guy. He doesn't need to consider spell slots if he just has an item that can spam it for him.

Fair enough.
 
Shouldn't Elm's durability be much higher than that? After all, he has multiple AC boosting items?
 
Right, but making magic items does take time. In fact, in 3.5, making a magic rod/ring takes an entire day each. Even if he succeeds in making them, and with a lot of charges, he'd have to also make non-metal rings/items and have them have enough charges. The massive amount of money it would take would also be considerable- doing all this would leave Elm with extremely little time to actually go out and prepare.

Both have higher durability, but if this comes down to a match where their hax counters each other and neither can hax the other, I'd say Tezz can speed blitz. Even with higher durability with spells, I don't know any spell that would make him durable enough to compete with country level AP on an island made of metal that Tezz can freely control. So, in an AP match, Tezz will speed blitz and win since he literally controls the whole island with metal manip.

Edit: Also, if Tezz realizes it would come down to an AP match or that it would be a viable option, he'd spend his prep time making sure he could deal with Elm. Use counter magic to deal with problematic spells, make some high-damage items, such like that.
 
AC is mostly being hard to hit rather than durability. Forcefields through Mage Armor, actual armor, luck, and dodging (dexterity).
 
>Right, but making magic items does take time. In fact, in 3.5, making a magic rod/ring takes an entire day each.

That's crafting them, not using magic to create them.

>Even if he succeeds in making them, and with a lot of charges, he'd have to also make non-metal rings/items and have them have enough charges. The massive amount of money it would take would also be considerable- doing all this would leave Elm with extremely little time to actually go out and prepare.

Again, creating them with Magic cuts that down, as well he could just go to a Plane with slowed down time.

>Controlling an Island with Metal Manip

That's nice and all but Wish can work on a Universal+ scale.
 
Alright. Now, Mage Armor is too weak to really help a lot, and Elm will regardless be behind in durability. Actual armor is a bad idea, since he will just mend it and use it against him. Dodging won't help, as he controls the entirety of the metal island.

In the end, Tezz has the leg up in AP and Speed. Anything that Elm prepares to survive, Tezz just has to prepare something to beat it. And considering a lot of Contingency spells and more powerful divination spells can take hours upon hours to go through, Tezz likely has an advantage in time in general.

They both resist eachother's hax rather well. But, Tezz has four main advantages that I think determine the fight. 1. Elm has to prepare his spells. Elm can't have access to every spell he wants- he has to pick and choose. There will become a point where he can't prepare any more defensive spells without suddenly lacking a way to actually kill Tezz. As well, Elm can't bring most of his equipment, since they are primarily metal. 2. Tezz doesn't really have the above problem- he has higher versatility in his powers, and can use just about everything he has. 3. Tezz has higher durability and speed, while Elm has far, far lower durability than Tezz's AP. 4. Tezz has the entirety of the island under his control via metal manipulation.

Elm has to prepare against every Mind Hax, every death hax, every illusion, every void and manipulation hax, and then double down on it in case Tezzerret dispels or counters it. Elm can't do all that, especially against a faster opponent with power null.

I vote Tezzerret for the above.
 
VSBW is lagging for me too, it happens man.

But yeah. Time passes slower in other planes, he can easily use them for prep time.

If Tezz cannot resist causality hax/reality warping, my current vote goes to Elminster since today I learned you can resist Wish of all things.
 
Alright, edited my post. Tezz may not directly resist Wish, but Wish is perfectly counterable in the D&D verse, so that will be Tezz's game plan to at least hold off Elm. As that's Elm's best chance at killing Tezz...

Also, time flowing slower in other planes likely won't count or else every prep match will turn into a hundred years of each of them finding the slowest plane they could imagine. As well, it is possible Tezz could find something similar throughout the multiverse.

Tezz doesn't need to resist Wish if he can counter it altogether.
 
ThePixelKirby said:
Alright, edited my post. Tezz may not directly resist Wish, but Wish is perfectly counterable in the D&D verse, so that will be Tezz's game plan to at least hold off Elm. As that's Elm's best chance at killing Tezz...
Click to expand...
Yeah, counterable in verse by beings with resistances to it. Also, no, Elm doesn't have to prepare all that. He has to ask a god what is most likely to be his best bet, and go. Tezz doesn't have access to the same info from what I see.
 
Tezz is in league with Nicol Bolas, who's 4-A and use to be up in tier 2. I think he'll be fine, knowledge-wise.


Sure, he can ask a god what would be his best bet. But that doesn't help him if there isn't a best bet in the first place. In D&D, to my memory, you need to prepare spells. Elm has to prepare his spells. Tezz does not need to.
 
Also, in 5E, a 9th level spell slot Counterspell will counter a Wish. No resistances required.

So, Tezz can certainly power null Wish, at least long enough for him to pull out a win, AP or hax wise, since Elm can't prepare himself against every single hax, find a way to resist his AP, and have a backup plan in case Tezz power nulls or takes out the protective measures.

Very simply, Elm needs to prepare multiple accounts of mind resistance, Death resistance, Planar teleportation, etc. for every single one of Tezz's haxes. And then, he runs the risk of Tezz focusing down one and countering and powernulling it into oblivion with blue magic.

Let's go back to Undo Misfortune, which we stated is why Elm has a chance against Tezz's causality.

What if Tezz counters it?
 
ThePixelKirby said:
Tezz is in league with Nicol Bolas, who's 4-A and use to be up in tier 2. I think he'll be fine, knowledge-wise
Click to expand...
Correction: Tezz is in-legue with a clone of Bolas that he assumed was the real Bolas. So Bolas still outranks him pretty hard. Hence why he has a "Possibly 4-A" rank he has.

Tezz has countermagic, I almost forgot. He can just counter whatever spells Elm throws at him before he even casts them.
 
I mean Tezz works for Bolas.
 
Well, what stops Elm just going "Wished out of existence"?

Also, the Undo Misfortune part of the Wish spell was to shown an example where Mortals resist Wish's effects (Reality Warping, BFR & Causality Manip) it's not the argument we was using.

>Very simply, Elm needs to prepare multiple accounts of mind resistance, Death resistance, Planar teleportation, etc for every single one of Tezz's haxes.

Not really, he has resistance to it without any of his spells, if he were to add spells, it'd give him immunities to it. Otherwise, he just has resistance to it baseline.

>And then, he runs the risk of Tezz focusing down one and countering and powernulling it into oblivion with blue magic.

Yes, but the likely hood of Tezz counterspelling Wish is unlikely.

>Also, in 5E, a 9th level spell slot Counterspell will counter a Wish. No resistances required.

Much more of a game mechanic, much like how a lvl 1 can hit a Greater God, wish has constantly been stated to be the strongest spell through every single version of the game.

>So, Tezz can certainly power null Wish, at least long enough for him to pull out a win, AP or hax wise, since Elm can't prepare himself against every single hax

He can try and Powernull Wish, but what about Time Stop? He has no resistances to Time Manipulation.
 
Oh, I thought you meant he was in-league, as in, comparable to Bolas in some way.

Whoops, lol.
 
>Wished out of existence Counterspell. >Time Stop Blue magic covers time, but if that's not enough for you, Counterspell again.

As well, Elm's resistances to causality manip. are reactionary- he can cast the spell that way to undo something. But if Tezzerret picks a timeline where he wins, he's also going to pick a timeline where Elm is unable to get off a Wish spell in order to undo it's effects. Because Counterspell.

The fact that a 9th level Counterspell can counter Wish simply means that Tezzerret can counter it because nothing can.

Also, where does it say he has natural, high-powered resistances to those hax without spells? If it's equipment, a majority of his equipment is metal. If it's simply, say, will saves, Elm's going to fail his since Tezzerret can regularly fool mind mages with his illusions and mental magic.

To conclude, unless Elm has a way to get around Tezzerret's power null, he will be unable to resist causality manipulation or use Wish, as both need to be cast as spells that Tezz can counter, so then Tezz would win with Clockworking.
 
Tezz's mindhax resistance would even deal with resistance negation, by the way, seeing has he bypasses Mindhax by having a second mind he can use as a telepathic sheild, if that makes any sense.

As for how powerful Tezz's mindhax is, he was able to remove someone else's mind and absorb it into his own in order to make the aformentioned defense against Jace. And that was with a really short amount of prep, like a couple minutes.
 
Make sure you count my vote, Dargoo. And I think Bambu's vote is still valid, as Elm's causality resistance has to be cast and can be countered.
 
Gotcha. There was a good amount of debate so I missed it. Thanks!

Tezz - 2 (ThePixel, Bambu)
 
>As well, Elm's resistances to causality manip. are reactionary- he can cast the spell that way to undo something.

I went over this, no, it's not, like I said, I was bringing up that Wish can be resisted and therefore it's effects can be resisted, namely, Casuality Manip, Reality Warping and BFR. So no, Elm resistance to Casuality Manip isn't from Wish, it's that he can resist the effects of Wish NOT that he needs to use it to counter Casuality Manip.

> But if Tezzerret picks a timeline where he wins, he's also going to pick a timeline where Elm is unable to get off a Wish spell in order to undo it's effects. Because Counterspell.

Went over this via Resistance to Casuality Manip

>The fact that a 9th level Counterspell can counter Wish simply means that Tezzerret can counter it because nothing can.

Went over this, this is Game Mechanics. a Lvl 1 Fighter isn't 2-A because he can deal damage to a Greater God.

>Also, where does it say he has natural, high-powered resistances to those hax without spells?

Here And we will need to add Casuality Manipulation with the example I have given to how people can resist it without spells.

> If it's equipment, a majority of his equipment is metal. If it's simply, say, will saves, Elm's going to fail his since Tezzerret can regularly fool mind mages with his illusions and mental magic.

Fools other Mages, good, but Elm isn't a normal Mage. As well, his Will Save is INCREDIBLY HIGH.

He's an Epic level Wizard and has levels in Cleric. Also, I will make a CRT for Elm's intellect to be increases to Supergenius another day (High Int than Beholders who can do this; "Furthermore, Beholders are considered so intelligent, it is compared to paranoia- for it is said that they have calculated the chances of any event, no matter how unlikely, and prepared an adequate plan for such a thing.")

>To conclude, unless Elm has a way to get around Tezzerret's power null, he will be unable to resist causality manipulation or use Wish, as both need to be cast as spells that Tezz can counter, so then Tezz would win with Clockworking.

No, he can, unless his Power Null specifically targets Resistances, it's not negating his Spell-Like abilities, like the ones coming from his Ring of Spell Storing, which He wouldn't know about and BOOM Time Stop.
 
Tezz can counter spells as they're being cast, though. So unless Elm's spells are instantaneous, they're getting countered.

Even then with Tezz's precog he might be able to do that beforehand either way.
 
>Tezz can counter spells as they're being cast, though. So unless Elm's spells are instantaneous, they're getting countered.

1. Most of the spells he casts can be done instantly, I believe most spells have a duration of "Instantanious"

2. Elm's Time Stop comes from another Source which would be instantanious as well, namely his Ring of Spell Storing.

>Even then with Tezz's precog he might be able to do that beforehand either way.

Elm has his own Precog, it's called Foresight:


  • "Foresight: This spell grants Elminster a sixth-sense for a few minutes, which functions effectively as true precognition. Allows him a general idea on how he can protect himself beforehand if need be, as well as future actions anything around him may take."
 
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