Elminster vs. Tezzeret

[Mr. Bambu]

"dash forward"

No, he can't. Elminster can literally set it to activate with a thought.

How quick can he activate blue magic and what prep time gives him negation of causality manip/reality warping?

 

[Moritzva]

OP stated Tezz moves Mach 100 while Elm has Mach 64 reactions. He can activate his blue magic extremely quickly, and all magic negation is all magic negation; Elm has no resistances to it.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Thought based is faster than moving your arm even in a small arc.

 

[Moritzva]

Tezzeret moves faster than Elm's reaction times, even if we assume he's strictly baseline.

Also, Antimagic Field is capable of making a wizard incapable of casting spells, such as Wish. So Wish can be negated by power null such as that, and likely what Tezz can come up with.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Because Antimagic is a bit different. It affects all supernatural things, despite its name. We've had entire threads discussing that specific unique case.

If Tezz has that, by all means. But that equates to nullifying Causality Hax and Reality Warping. Which you haven't shown.

Furthermore, again, thought based actions are going to be faster. If you are going to argue he moves faster than a person can think, a person whose speed is not far below his, you are outta your mind.

 

[Moritzva]

His reaction speeds, his speed of thought, is less than Tezzeret's speed.

You have shown no reason why Tezzeret's anti magic and power null that nullifies all magic, which is more or less a hax on it's own, that Elm has no resistance to, won't nullify Wish. It literally says it negates all magic, and Elm has no resistances to that. With prep time, he would certainly use the best of his abilities to negate Elm's magic, and with his speed, he more than can.

This entire debate is still hinging on Elm's resistances being high enough to resist instant death, surviving the Blind Eternities, not getting AP Blitzed, and more. You haven't said how he would survive in the Blind Eternities, or what spells can survive power null + AP blitz.

Power null has no reason not to effect Wish, as Wish and wizards alike show no resilience to any amount of power negation or countermagic.

 

[Moritzva]

Also, he doesn't have any feat for silent spells, so if Tezzeret uses his speed to bind his mouth (Elm will need to speak Wish out loud in order to cast it), Tezzeret can prevent his casting of it.

I assumed Elm had silent metamagic, but it seems he does not. Another factor Elm needs to prepare for, while Tezzeret has 3 days and precog using Clockworking to figure out how to deal with Wish.

Tezz has more ways to kill, Elm has one. Elm needs to prepare for them all, Tezz needs to prepare for one. If needed, he can focus his time on countering Elm's countermeasures so he can push through with, say, instant death. (Could build an item to break Elm's concentration, deafen him, or any other way one could disrupt spellcasters. Seriously, there are a lot.)

Elm has no silent or still spell feats. This also contributes to his downfall.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

His reaction speeds, his speed of thought, is less than Tezzeret's speed.
You have shown no reason why Tezzeret's anti magic and power null that nullifies all magic, which is more or less a hax on it's own, that Elm has no resistance to, won't nullify Wish. It literally says it negates all magic, and Elm has no resistances to that. With prep time, he would certainly use the best of his abilities to negate Elm's magic, and with his speed, he more than can.

This entire debate is still hinging on Elm's resistances being high enough to resist instant death, surviving the Blind Eternities, not getting AP Blitzed, and more. You haven't said how he would survive in the Blind Eternities, or what spells can survive power null + AP blitz.

Power null has no reason not to effect Wish, as Wish and wizards alike show no resilience to any amount of power negation or countermagic.

Let's dissect this one.

1. Yes, that is true! Except Tezz has to move a lot more than Elminster has to think... once. For one instant.

2. Yes, I do. Wish isn't affected by standard magic null in the verse. Spell Resistance won't stop a Wish.

3. They can. If we're allowing Blind Eternities, then we're allowing Mystra, in which case this becomes a fight between them and her.

4. Yes, it does. See above. It isn't affected by Spell null in the verse. So like. GG.

 

[Moritzva]

Resistance isn't power null. It's resistance. Not negation or countering or sabotaging or destroying completely.

He has power null.

Also, the Blind Eternities isn't an entity as much as it's a place that he can drag people into. Sorry if it seemed otherwise. So I'm fairly sure Mystra and Bolas can only really just tell them things.

As well, with Mach 100+ speeds, Tezzeret can get all the way over to Elm with time to spare. Since Elm only reacts at Mach 64 or higher (Which Tezz could dedicate time to increasing his speed), Tezz can be right on top of him and still have first action. As well, he has metal manipulation, so it is possible for him to bend metal to gag, trip, and attack Elm before he even processes it, destroying his concentration so he'll be unable to cast Wish in time.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Spell Resistance is not normal resistance. That's the name. What it does is neg magic upon interacting with an object. It is Power Null.

See above, since you're ignoring what I'm saying by using the names of things kek.

Cool. If Tezz hass access to his 2-A hax, Elminster does, too. And Elminster's is better.

No. He can't. 4km is the time he'd have to cross before Elminster could think. His range advantage isn't even 2x. He isn't going to get a huge advantage from it.

 

[Moritzva]

So you admit the Blind Eternities would kill him? Then Tezzeret uses his action to drag Elm in and win.

Dispel Magic and Counterspell are more akin to blue magic than Spell Resistance.

Wish can be Counterspelled; Counterspell is a spell, not just a game mechanic. You see, Elm doesn't just need to think Wish; he needs to say Wish.

Elm, if unable to say Wish, loses. Elm, if unable to keep concentration, loses. Elm, if dragged into the Blind Eternities, loses. And Tezz gets the first action.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

No I don't? When did I ever say that lol?

's great. Dispel doesn't work on Wish, either.

Yes. Except Counterspell isn't just Power Null. It is very specific power null, to the point where Tezz would have to have the actual spell first. The exact spell, I mean. Like not the same power, not the same item, or draw from the same power source. The exact spell. So no, that isn't a valid argument. And yes, Elminster can use Wish with a thought. Contingency spell allows him to prepare a magical effect to go off whenever one thing happens.

Elm is 100% able to use wish before Tezz goes. So please. Try, for a bit, to stop altering how spells work in D&D. I am trying to be fair here. But with Elminster being able to resist Tezz' causality manip and short of you guys dragging in 2-A stuff (in which case Mystra goes to kill Bolas and a separate thread should be made kek), Elminster takes this. His prep time is superior, and the main argument for Tezz is taking D&D spells and saying they work one way when they work another, and a slight speed advantage. Whereas Elminster can just think at him.

 

[Moritzva]

Counterspell in 5E doesn't work like the Counterspell you are mentioning.

I know how 3.5 Counterspell works, you know.

Elm's prep time takes an exceedingly large amount of time. You have not addressed any of the ways Tezz can kill him. And most of all, dragging him into the Blind Eternities has nothing to do with Bolas or other beings, it's on his profile.

Also, Contingency only allows effects that effect the user and the user only. He can't use Contingency to cast Wish, nor does he have Quicken metamagic. Even if he could, Elm doesn't have the spell Contingency, and will need to use Wish to cast it every time.

Elm's prep time isn't decisively "superior", this entire debate is just putting aside everything Tezz can prepare.

How will Elm fight if his mouth is bound? How will he cast Wish if he's tripped and concentration is ruined? How will he survive the Blind Eternities, which is on his profile so he can do? How will he survive Instant Death if a Death Ward is dispelled?

 

[Udlmaster]

>Elm's prep time takes an exceedingly large amount of time

Like what? Creating items takes the most time and he can just cast Wish to create items.

>You have not addressed any of the ways Tezz can kill him.

We already have, you just keep ignoring it.

>And most of all, dragging him into the Blind Eternities has nothing to do with Bolas or other beings, it's on his profile.

Elm has resistance to BFR.

>Also, Contingency only allows effects that effect the user and the user only.

"I wish myself to win this fight."

>He can't use Contingency to cast Wish, nor does he have Quicken metamagic. Even if he could, Elm doesn't have the spell Contingency, and will need to use Wish to cast it every time.

Actually, he'd most likely would, being connected to Mystra, she'd be able to give him any spell. As well as Metamagic feats from his connection to the Weave.

>Elm's prep time isn't decisively "superior", this entire debate is just putting aside everything Tezz can prepare.

I don't think Tezz can prepare anything better than a Very High into 2-A God who will give him all the information in the fight as she knows about all magic cast, by who and when it's being cast 18 weeks prior to the fight. So she could tell him literally everything about that fight in every detail and would provide Elm with support for the fight as well.

>How will Elm fight if his mouth is bound? How will he cast Wish if he's tripped and concentration is ruined?

I like how you assume that all those effects will not only get past Elm's natural resistances but will get past his Spell Resistance as well.

>How will he survive the Blind Eternities, which is on his profile so he can do?

BFR which he resists and Spell Resistance on top of.

>How will he survive Instant Death if a Death Ward is dispelled?

You're still ignoring the fact that Elm resists Death Manip anyway, after I've told you MULTIPLE TIMES.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Yeah, Tezz can drag people in and out of the Eternities with the Infinity Globe.

Unless the BFR resistance prevents him from being teleported in the first place, he instantly gets EE'd before he can do anything.

2-A God assistance isn't allowed under SBA, let alone the OP. If I have to actually specify it I'll add it to the OP so people don't confuse themselves.

 

[Moritzva]

Do you know how horrible wizard fort saves are?

Also, he can't teleport out of the Blind Eternities if he's dead. It's not a matter of him getting out, it's him surviving in the first place.

Tezz has AP advantage and spell resistance won't help him from being physically bound.

Tezz can use Clockworking to precog on a similar level as above, without info from any higher powers.

We sure as hell aren't allowing Mystra to GIVE him powers or else this is a stomp- 2-A vs 6-B.

While Contingency varies from version to version, 3.5e only allows spells of level 6 and lower, while 5E only allows spells with range: self. Wish doesn't classify.

Wish to create items costs XP in 3.5 or risks never being able to cast Wish again in 5e which could severely hurt his chances in this fight.

Tezz can blitz. Wizard fort saves are terrible. Pulling him in the Blind Eternities won't be BFR as much as killing him inside of them. He can gag, deafen, disrupt, or attack Elm so he can't cast Wish.

 

[Moritzva]

Also @Dargoo I'd add in OP the limits of help. I'm beginning to think restricting them from going to others for help because this is getting absurd- Up to you, though.

Now, Mystra vs Bolas when?

Also, theoretically he could dimension lock himself, but Tezz could dispel that too with blue magic. He could probably do that and drag Elm into the Blind Eternities before Elm could even say "Wish".

So far, we've stated all these things Elm could prepare, but not Tezz. He could create devices to rip our minds- even assuming he can't bypass Elm's mind resistance, his death resistance is likely not quite as high so Tezz is more likely to defeat it if he tried or found it a viable option.

Even if we also say Wish can't be counterspelled or negated, which I think it can, Tezz would instead put his work into just blitzing him down. Anything to increase speed, items for powerful dispels, anything to speed drag into the Blind Eternities and kill.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Yeah, Tezz can drag people in and out of the Eternities with the Infinity Globe.
Unless the BFR resistance prevents him from being teleported in the first place, he instantly gets EE'd before he can do anything.

2-A God assistance isn't allowed under SBA, let alone the OP. If I have to actually specify it I'll add it to the OP so people don't confuse themselves.

@Dargoo It does prevent him from being teleported though. This literally isn't an issue.

@Pixel And... first off. The degree at which beings resist at a numerical face value is game mechanics, flat out. Additionally, he can buff those resistances pretty easily. What you're implying isn't an issue.

Doesn't need to get out if he can't get teleported.

Elminster has the same degree of prior knowledge via spells. So precog is a bit of a moot point.

Tezz cannot blits because, again, four kilometers is an absurd distance when all your enemy has to do is think at you.

Wish is classified as range self, are you even trying?

Look for yourself, what even is this.

This is blatant downplaying. So please. Stop.

Also, Mystra isn't an interesting match. That said D&D is fighting Bolas on a thread somewhere, though it might be Asgorath (because dragons) or Vecna (because dangerous). Might have been determined D&D stomped though, dunno.

 

[Udlmaster]

>Do you know how horrible wizard fort saves are?

Not an argument, he has several levels in Melee classes.

>Also, he can't teleport out of the Blind Eternities if he's dead. It's not a matter of him getting out, it's him surviving in the first place.

Not the Argument I made at all, stop strawmanning me, I made it as clear as possible, He flat out has Resistances to BFR.

>Tezz has AP advantage and spell resistance won't help him from being physically bound.

So, you're changing your argument again from Causality Hax, to Metal Manip to now just Punching.

>Tezz can use Clockworking to precog on a similar level as above, without info from any higher powers.

Coolio, doesn't matter what's so ever.

>We sure as hell aren't allowing Mystra to GIVE him powers or else this is a stomp- 2-A vs 6-B.

Do you even know what the hell you're talking about? The Chosen of Mystra are chosen to hold her powers. Also, Elm may get a higher tiering due to ressurecting OG Mystra.

>While Contingency varies from version to version, 3.5e only allows spells of level 6 and lower, while 5E only allows spells with range: self. Wish doesn't classify.

Wish has a range of "Varies" it can be "Self" sorry to tell you.

>Wish to create items costs XP in 3.5 or risks never being able to cast Wish again in 5e which could severely hurt his chances in this fight.

It's only a thing that happens in 5e and is most likely an outlier irrc. Also, using EXP is a game Mechanic. This isn't Undertale.

>Tezz can blitz. Wizard fort saves are terrible. Pulling him in the Blind Eternities won't be BFR as much as killing him inside of them. He can gag, deafen, disrupt, or attack Elm so he can't cast Wish.

Again you're changing your argument.

>Pulling him in the Blind Eternities won't be BFR as much as killing him inside of them. Oh really, do you even bother to read the profiles you talk about?

" BFR with the Infinity Globe (Can drag people in and out of the Blind Eternities)"

Read the profiles AT LEAST!

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Dargoo, I'll ask again, I'd like my vote changed to Elminster. If Elm resists Causality Hax, and he does, then I believe he takes this via wish and resisting a good amount of Tezz' best stuff.

 

[Moritzva]

I haven't seen any reasonable feats for if the resistances are remotely strong enough to defeat what Tezz can come up with with prep time. As well, again, he doesn't have to just "think" with Wish- he has to say it. And god forbid Tezzeret comes with a way to convert the literal entire island of Etherium into energy- an alloy he's only exceptionally use to being around and using, after all. God forbid he actually uses that.

Power Null hits Wish since Tezzeret's Power Null is a hax. He can fully disable magic. That's a hax, and base spell resistance won't be enough to defeat Tezzeret's Power Null with prep time.

State how Elm doesn't lose to power null.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

I thought I edited that on the OP, whoops.

 

[Moritzva]

This entire argument is a NLF of saying resistances that are not perfect and can fail = absolutely impenetrable perfect + incidentally resists Power Null.

Stop. Just.. stop.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

1. He doesn't have to say it, again, Contingency allows for the effect to work and the range is Self. You said that yourself so I don't understand your problem here.

2. Even if he doesn't, you are arguing he won't be able to speak a word before Tezz can close four kilometers. I don't think you understand how speed works.

3. If he does, then like... who cares? What does that serve him for? I'll admit, locale is obviously used to give Tezz a major advantage, but what exact application does that have that makes it far more likely for Tezz to win over instant lolrealitywarping?

4. No, it doesn't. We've explained this. Magic Nulling doesn't work on Wish as it has shown to be above Spell Resistance, which is word for word passive magic null. What does work is Anti-Magic, which affects all things regardless of their stature as magic so long as they are supernatural in nature. Again, we've discussed this. Wish punches through magic null like a bullet through butter.

5. Already did

 

[Moritzva]

Ow.

Tezzeret's Power Null isn't a resistance and doesn't work like D&D resistances. You can't ignore Counterspell, which is more akin to how Tezz is capable of using his magic, then say Wish ignores saves so it ignores active power null.

https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Contingency https://roll20.net/compendium/dnd5e/Contingency#content

Contingency can't cast Wish (In game it's too high level, ignoring game mechanics it's too strong), and specifies it can only effect the user. Not sure how legal wishing for "I win the battle" is, too.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

This isn't resistance either, only in name. Saying "Spell Resistance = Resistance" would be like saying "oh well this guy's name is Void clearly he has Existence Erasure via Void Manipulation"

Name =/= Application. Spell Resist is effectively Magic Power Null. Moving on.

Regardless, as I said above. You are assuming projectiles from Tezz can cover 4km before Elminster can speak. That's just blatantly incorrect. And... that isn't the wish. While it could be anything, some examples include "I wish for Tezz to not be alive at this moment in time", "I wish for Tezz to choke to death on some extraordinary tofu", or "I wish for Tezz to commit lack of oxygen in lungs"

The choices truly are endless, but ultimately, they spell out death for Tezz.

 

[Moritzva]

Projectiles from 2 feet away from him, though? Tezz could easily meld items he needs or even make a makeshift mouth bind out of the metal right next to him.

Contingency doesn't allow spells that strong and only spells that effect the user. But even if we assume Contingency can allow people to use spells on other people, Contingency flat-out can't be used with Wish. And if he has to say Wish, Tezzeret wins because he gets the first move.

I did some calculations- Admittedly, if he could set off Contingency: "Wish when the battle starts", he could win. However, Tezzeret can cover 34.3 kilometers in one second. Now, add any items he might use to boost his speed, and he could certainly get within range and/or mend metal to restrain Elm.

Cover his mouth. Trip him. Anything. He won't be able to cast Wish fast enough, since Wish has a verbal component.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Before a word goes off? Pretty sure.

As I said. Even without Contingency, Elm just has to speak. Or use a command word. Or whatever. There are so many things to do with prep time in D&D.

"Tezz gets first move" literally the msot game mechanics statement of all time. Tezz isn't even 2x faster. It is nowhere near as huge of an advantage as you make it out to be.

You're approaching it all wrong my guy. For every 100 meters Tezz can move, Elminster can move, admittedly, far less, and react to faster (speed should be equalized but I assume Dargoo was hoping for ez victory on D&D kek). But he doesn't have to move fast to speak. Not to mention with prep you can get speed amps, pretty easily. So no. He really can't, because by that time the relative second has passed, Elminster has already managed to wish on him.

Talking is faster than moving.

 

[Moritzva]

>Completely ignored everything Tezz would do to restrict his movement and prevent him talking and prevent him concentrating.

Yea, okay. Any speed amps Elm gets, Tezz get just as many if not more since Elm has to focus a lot of his timue on casting spells, some of which have decently long cast times, not to mention having to sleep/trance to restore spell slots where Tezz has cyborg properties.

Talking is faster than moving, except when that moving is so fast it's faster than you talking. The average person (I don't see "improved rapping" as a feat) can speak around 4-5 syllables a second. Even if we double that and say he can blurt our Wish in 1/9th of a second, Tezz is dangerously close to reaching him, as it takes around 1/9th of a second to reach him (Without speed amps). Now, add in metal binding his mouth or attacking him or whatever else Tezz wants. You say he might run away to cast? Tezz can metal bend to prevent him from moving, since again, the entire plane is metal.

I admit the fight was probably set up for Tezz to have an easy win, and that it is likely a really close battle. But Tezz has the advantage in a no-prep fight, and with such heavy precog, their prep times will just be spent with Tezz preparing to counter anything Elm prepares. If he believes Elm will speed buff himself, Tezz will speed buff himself if needed. If he believes Elm will try to resist a certain hax Tezz has, Tezz will go above and beyond to make sure he can beat Elm's resistances. But chances are, if he realizes how Elm plans to beat him, he'll do something to beat that instead.

I don't see Elm casting Wish if his mouth is bound or his concentration is broken, which Tezz can do.

 

[Moritzva]

I am curious- without Mystra going out of her way to feed Elm information, how good is his precog? Could I get some specific examples and information?

 

[Mr. Bambu]

"Tezz gets more"

What? What in the world lol? Elm can do that... as part of prep time. They last a fair bit. Some do, anyways, some are crap. Also, again, Elm can just speak before those things move. You're severely overplaying what Tezz can do here. Not to mention... Elminster can sort of just... you know. Cause Wish to occur via prep. Since I just realized he has Delay Spell he can say "wait a second", cast the spell just before combat, and then it happens.

"Tezz has the advantage in a no prep fight"

Elminster is Low 7-B with no prep of course he does, that isn't an argument at all. And yes. Elminster absolutely can because he is also ridiculously fast. He can act that fast.

So Elm takes it in my book.

 

[Moritzva]

Prep fights are confusing, I swear.

Not sure the legality of preparing a spell to go off the moment the battle starts- otherwise this could be incon based on Tezz putting together the biggest or most destructive thing he could find, or preparing a spell to kill him the moment the battle starts with AP (He could make a fire spell to incinerate specifically zombies, but he normally doesn't access pyromancy)

So, if we allow them to prepare doomsday devices and spells, this could just be incon- they both realize whoever hits first wins, so they both grab whatever can kill the opponent the moment the battle starts.

Lord, this is getting complicated.

But then Tezz, as part of his prep time, could set something to counter Delayed Wish as a spell before it actually procs and gets into a form where it nullifies any resistances and power null, but then Elm would prepare something, which Tezz would prepare something for...

Can OP give us some rules as to what can and can not be done during Prep Time?

 

[Moritzva]

Also, again, info on Elm's precog? Could actually be really important here.

They could end up in a repeated precog loop, where every time one does something, the other sees it and prepares something to counter it, which the other sees and attempts to counter back, which makes the entire battle moot and pointless.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Not precog. Prior knowledge. He can ask gods a question and they give an answer. And... what, Tezz just knows Elm is gonna be opening with Wish, a spell he's never heard of lol?

 

[Moritzva]

Tezz can see timelines with Clockworking. He can also use various contacts to figure out what's going on.

Even if Tezz choosing a timeline with Clockworking gets resistance, he can still look at it. This means he can see every timeline and what might happen and act accordingly- including, seeing Wish screw him over.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

And be unable to take the timeline that grants him a victory. So that's about as good as Medaka's precog kek.

 

[Moritzva]

Also, I looked at the exact feat regarding paralysis by needles- it doesn't seem to be a magical effect, moreso it's literally attacking the nervous system itself. I doubt Elm could prepare for this without precog, and I doubt spell resistance will protect against metal ripping apart his brain, which Tezz could do.

This trap would fishhook the hand of anyone other than me at first touch, and insinuate a network of hair-thin etherium wires transdermally, to hijack the thief's nervous system and magically override the voluntary motor nerves, inflicting permanent paralysis. This would leave the thief alive, awake, and aware, but unable to do anything save, oh, for example, die of thirst. Or drown in a particularly large dumping of trub. Or meet some other unpleasantly lingering death."

Given time and urgency, I believe he could make something better. And this was a trap- Tezzeret doesn't need to be present for it to set off. So, even if he's Wished out of existence, a trap like that would kill him, to my knowledge.

Edit: The precog still lets him see and prepare accordingly. He may not be able to causality manip. to force it to happen, but he's capable of just... doing the things that let him win most of the time, yes?

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Wish.

This is my response to "hah metal eats your brain and this entire match is built to give a win to tezz haha".

Wish. Few words.

Also "I believe he could make something better" =/= having feats of actually making something better.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

This is my response to "hah metal eats your brain and this entire match is built to give a win to tezz haha".

If I wanted to make this thread to make Tezzeret win I would have just taken away the prep time and put them at melee range.

 

[Moritzva]

He made such to defeat intruders, and there is no reason why a man capable of stealing someone's mind powers with technology can't slightly modify a pre-existing device.

Tezz has precog, so he'll have better info over Tezz and his abilities. Meanwhile, Elm will have to individually poke at gods to figure out what he should be doing.

Not to mention the difference in Wish's Power Null negation- D&D Power Null prevents the spell from effecting the person. Tezzeret's Power Null can prevent you from ever casting the spell. Wish's effects can go through D&D Power Null. Wish's effects can't go through Power Null if you can't cast Wish.

Even if he can get Wish off, he still has a million and one traps that kill him instantly afterwards. To put it simply, Tezz will prepare for Wish a million times over since Tezz knows Wish is the only way to beat him through precog. So, even if Elm gets Wish off, which Tezz will use every method to stop, he'd going to have to deal with brain spikes and whatever else Tezz wants to throw at him.