Elminster vs. Tezzeret

[Dargoo_Faust]

Tezz's precog spans centuries and is far more accurate, as he can literally see the consequences of any given action he takes.

I'm not talking about duration, I'm talking about casting time.

 

[Udlmaster]

That cool, but for the purpose of a fight that's pretty much lasting the first few spells, they basically cancel each other out.

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

I actually think tezz might stomp here, seeing as countering wish can only be done once before a rest if you aren't a demipower or higher

 

[Udlmaster]

Nope, you can prepare spells more than once. Additionally, he has Mystra the Goddess of Magic helping him out as well, and even then, he can just use Limited Wish which would do the same thing.

 

[Moritzva]

As well, Wish can be counterspelled in D&D, so it's still unreasonable to say Tezz can't Counterspell it here. Call it a game mechanic, but it means it's physically possible to do so.

His Ring of Spell Storing would be broken apart by Metal Manip when the battle starts.

Tezzerret's mind magic outplayed Jace, an incredibly powerful and potent mind mage. Meaning not only did his magic fool a mage, but a mage in that exact field of magic. I doubt Elm has resistances high enough to beat this, nor does he have natural death resistance, or resistance to any of Tezz's haxes naturally. He NEEDS spells like Mind Blank and whatnot, except those can all be dispelled or power nulled.

Every point you have made has been debunked. Provide any amount of causality resistance that can't be power nulled. Provide any resistance at all that can't either be beat by Tezz or power nulled. Provide how Elm will end up beating literally every single hax and power null and get off a Wish without it being countered. Provide something.

 

[Moritzva]

Also: Wish can be cast multiple times. And he'll be dead before a second casting. Or just countered again, Tezz doesn't care.

 

[Udlmaster]

>As well, Wish can be counterspelled in D&D, so it's still unreasonable to say Tezz can't Counterspell it here. Call it a game mechanic, but it means it's physically possible to do so.

Yes, and a Lvl 1 Fighter can hurt a Greater God, your point is mute.

>His Ring of Spell Storing would be broken apart by Metal Manip when the battle starts.

Okay, so he goes for Metal Manip, Elm has gone for Wish and because he's gone for Metal Manip he couldn't Counterspell and dies to Wish.

>Tezzerret's mind magic outplayed Jace, an incredibly powerful and potent mind mage. Meaning not only did his magic fool a mage, but a mage in that exact field of magic. I doubt Elm has resistances high enough to beat this, nor does he have natural death resistance, or resistance to any of Tezz's haxes naturally.

Resists Wail of the Banshee, Heart Stop, Phantasmal Killer, Weird etc.

Phantasmal Kill doesn't just trick the person, it literally kills them, Weird is the same except it does this to who MULTIPLE PEOPLE.

Also, read the Resist page, that's BASE RESISTANCES.

>Every point you have made has been debunked.

Now now, try not to jack yourself off too hard too soon.

>Provide any amount of causality resistance that can't be power nulled.

Easy, does his Power Null affect Resistances?

>Provide any resistance at all that can't either be beat by Tezz or power nulled.

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User:Mr._Bambu/dndresist

>Provide how Elm will end up beating literally every single hax and power null and get off a Wish without it being countered. Provide something.

You mean like previously stated Resistances, if Tezz goes for Metal Manip on Elm's Ring, Elm gets off Wish.

Elm has the exact same, if not better resistances than a basic adventurer has. So, don't ignore it, like you've done for the past five comments.

And like I said before, he has Mystra helping him, you know Greater Goddess of Magic, 2-A support and all.

 

[Moritzva]

Resists then to an extent. D&D resistances are not perfect and can be defeated if the spell is strong enough. Tezz's spells are strong enough. I'm not ignoring it, because a 'basic adventurer' would be a thrall to Tezzerret's powers. You are relying on resistances that don't compare to spells cast by a man who's mind spells utterly fooled a 6-B mindmage with ease. Also, wizard fortitude saves are absolutely abysmal, so have fun resisting instant death.

So, what's left? A wish that can be countered, a causality resistance that isn't strong enough or needs to be cast and can be countered.. While Tezz has an entire bucket list of things Elm needs to resist multiple times over, while on a plane that he controls, and with enough power where AP blitzing is possible due to a massive speed advantage. And this isn't even counting Tezzerret's own prep time.

Tezzerret wins- decisively, since a Wish has a chance at getting to him, but not if blue mana has anything to say about it.

Edit: Not sure the rules of prep, but there's an extent to how much help you can get from a friend. Or else we have Rick showing up with an entire planet's worth of friends at every battle. So yea, Mystra can't do much that turns the tides for Elm.

 

[Udlmaster]

>Resists then to an extent. D&D resistances are not perfect and can be defeated if the spell is strong enough.

Yes, ignoring Spell Resistances, which ya know, Elm has.

>Tezz's spells are strong enough.

A claim without explaination.

>I'm not ignoring it, because a 'basic adventurer' would be a thrall to Tezzerret's powers.

PFFT, a basic adventurer can get upto High 2-A, so no, they wouldn't, what so ever.

>You are relying on resistances that don't compare to spells cast by a man who's mind spells utterly fooled a 6-B mindmage with ease.

And you're relying on Mystra not helping Elm out. Which you know, as a Chosen of Mystra, she would and does.

>Also, wizard fortitude saves are absolutely abysmal, so have fun resisting instant death.

Did you even read his profile?

"Nigh-immunity to mind and soul-based attacks, poisons, diseases, magic, traps, and the like, Immunity to a wide array of mundane and supernatural effects, A wide array of contingency effects further protect him from harm."

>A wish that can be countered, a causality resistance that isn't strong enough or needs to be cast and can be countered

Omg, how many times do I have to tell you? Read what I've put above because I'm not typing it out for a 3rd time.

>While Tezz has an entire bucket list of things Elm needs to resist multiple times over, while on a plane that he controls, and with enough power where AP blitzing is possible due to a massive speed advantage.

Which he can resist multiple times, as well with the help of Mystra.

As well Ring items can be used as a Reflex action, which is much faster than a Regular action, which is possibly much higher than the Hypersonic listed on his profile (Improved Inti)

>Tezzerret wins- decisively, since a Wish has a chance at getting to him, but not if blue mana has anything to say about it.

You just said he'd go for the Ring, which means that he doesn't go for Counterspell, so Wish get's cast, if he does go for Counterspell, the Time Stop gets off.

Again with Mystra helping him as well, it's not decisive.

 

[Moritzva]

Tezz can use precog to tell what he needs to do first, or Clockwork into it.

Provide any feat that could compare Elm's resistances to Tezzerret's spells.

I explained how Tezz's spells were strong enough. He was able to defeat a mind mage, also tier 6-B, with ease. It's a NLF to assume Elm's resistances will negate all powers of those types, no matter how strong, especially considering how D&D resistances work.

As well, Tezzerret has a massive speed advantage and doesn't need to vocally say his spells. He can multitask and disassemble the ring with only a thought.

Everything you have said has been countered or is wrong. You are just ignoring it.

 

[Udlmaster]

>Tezz can use precog to tell what he needs to do first, or Clockwork into it.

So can Elm.

>Provide any feat that could compare Elm's resistances to Tezzerret's spells.

Base Resistances + Spell Resistance + Ring of Spell Resistance = being able to resist someone who's comparable.

>I explained how Tezz's spells were strong enough. He was able to defeat a mind mage, also tier 6-B, with ease.

Lovely, now do go on how he can do it on Elm who's being supported by Mystra?

>It's a NLF to assume Elm's resistances will negate all powers of those types, no matter how strong, especially considering how D&D resistances work.

Mmmm, yiss, just look at all those times I said Elm's resistances work on anyone no matter what.

Dude, trying to discredit your detractors isn't going to work. At all.

>As well, Tezzerret has a massive speed advantage and doesn't need to vocally say his spells. He can multitask and disassemble the ring with only a thought.

And Elm has Mystra to support him beyond his normal spells. Also, it's not certain that he can Counterspell Wish 100% of the time.

>Everything you have said has been countered or is wrong. You are just ignoring it.

Yiss, look at all these things I'm ignoring, like going through your entire argument piece by piece and responding to it.

Also, ignoring it? Like how you're ignoring Elm's profile, as well as his items and support for Mystra as well, and how his Resistance comes from being able to Resist Wish, a spell that's Low 2-C. And then what about his Domain spells? What if he casts Wish as a Domain spell? I doubt he can counterspell a Magic coming form a 2-A source.

 

[Udlmaster]

Also, you're forgetting a few things:

In 1e Elminster was a 26th level spell caster.

In 2e he was a 29th level Wizard

In 3e he was a 24th level Wizard, 5th level Archmage, 3rd level Cleric, 2nd level Rouge and 1st level Fighter. In total a 35th level adventurer. With this, he'd be able to cast Epic level and beyond 9th level spells.

He's also intimate with Mystra herself (I wish I was making that up) and is literal allies with her.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

"Foresight: This spell grants Elminster a sixth-sense for a few minutes, which functions effectively as true precognition. Allows him a general idea on how he can protect himself beforehand if need be, as well as future actions anything around him may take."

Yeah, that's nowhere near Tezzeret's level of precog.

"could directly perceive the consequence of any given choice or string of choices, as the temporal streams bifurcated outward from each decision point. The more probable any given potential time line was, the easier it was to see."

Elm gets a general idea of how to prep for the future.

Tezzeret actually sees the future and direct consequences of any action he considers taking.

 

[Moritzva]

Also, list how Mystra will help him.

I think we can, by now, state their argument is null and void. They repeatedly ignored all evidence as to Tezzerret's hax is above Elm's resistances. They repeatedly ignored Tezzerret's better precog. They repeatedly ignored Tezzerret's death manip (Wizards have bad Fortitude saves), never addressed how Elm will prepare for everything, how to deal with the power null, how to deal with AP blitz...

Can we say that their reasoning has been debunked in regards to their vote?

 

[Udlmaster]

Mystra has a select group called "Mystra's chosen" these are being to which she gives immortality to and protects them.

Additionally she's on of his allies:

"His allies included the Harpers, the other Chosen of Mystra (especially the Simbul, his paramour), and Mystra herself"

as well "Elminster interacted regularly with the other Chosen of Mystra through a telepathic link. As well as once sharing a bed with the goddess herself, he conducted a relationship with the Simbul of the Seven Sisters."

One instance where she's come to help him:

"After many adventures, Elminster was visited by Mystra, the Goddess of All Magic. She tarried with him and left the awestruck Elminster with the message that he should learn magic and worship her. Soon thereafter, while he was still a young adult, Mystra transformed Elminster into a woman to strengthen his bond with magic and to know what it was to be a woman. This change also allowed her, now called "Elmara", to move within his enemies' circles without their knowledge that she was in fact the last surviving prince of Athalantar. For a few years, Elmara was a priestess of Mystra. Later, an avatar of Mystra (who went by the name Myrjala Talithy, or "Darkeyes") trained Elmara in the ways of a mage and brought her to an ancient Netherese archmage known as Ander who taught Elmara a spell that would transform her back into Elminster. In the time that followed, Elminster learned much about magic from Myrjala, reaching the point where he could finish taking his revenge against the evil magelords who had usurped the kingdom. After a terrific battle, Elminster persevered and assumed the throne of Athalantar."

Another: "By now, magic had become unreliable, and Elminster had to again learn to survive by his wits and the skills he'd picked up earlier in his life. The god Azuth soon came to him telling him that he mustn't rely on Mystra for aid like any other Chosen must with magic, this again being a test from Mystra. Soon he had to learn how to survive without constant divine aid. He later underwent further magical training under the tutelage of a wicked sorceress who sought to tempt him away from Mystra's path. Later, during a fake ritual for Bane, she revealed herself to be the goddess Mystra herself, once again testing him."

Another time:

"Elminster entered the portal and narrowly managed to close it, but at the expense of much of his magical strength. Once in Hell, he was abducted and enslaved by an outcast archdevil known as Nergal, who wished to discover the secret of Mystra's silver fire. Elminster was subject to brutal tortures, surviving only because of his exceptional endurance and ability to heal himself with silver fire. While the arch-fiend plundered Elminster's thoughts and memories, Mystra became aware of her favorite servant's plight and entered Hell herself to find him. "

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I'd also like to point out that Elminster's prior knowledge via prep is being pretty downplayed. Not only would prep grant him access to spells that allow you to ask flat out questions to the gods and have them fully answered, but he has abilities such as scrying to give him ideas on Tezz' tendencies.

Also, as Udl points out, Elminster does have access to Mystra if he knows how bad of a scenario he's getting into.

So no. You can't just say "haha no votes" when I'm out for a few hours lol.

 

[Udlmaster]

Also, the Common source of his Magic is Mystra which is gonna make it hard for Pwer Null to effect him.

As well, to underline how much Mystra takes note of Elminster, she was willing to go to Hell to get him, and to note, Hell and the Abyss are eternally locked into something called the "Blood War" which is basically where the Devil and Demons fight for all eternity, the Demons constantly respawn and the Devils just keep recruiting enough to literally force the fight into a stalemate.

Now Mystra was willing to break this stalemate and risk the entire Multiverse being over run by Devils just to get Elminster back.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

1. Power Null can affect him since magic doesn't work like that. That said, if he does enlist help of Mystra... while I doubt she'd lend her full god powers, that may have something to be said.

2. Mystra laughably outclasses all demon lords and most archdevils (save for Asmodeus), so the Blood War isn't a big deal, not to mention Asmodeus tends to not overreact and attempt to slaughter the multiverse over little things.

 

[Udlmaster]

Oh, no, I mean tip the balance, the whole point no one takes a side for the War is because it's far better they keep fighting each other then they over run the entire Multiverse.

That's not to say they cannot be stopped by the Gods, but the mortals won't be very happy about Demons being everywhere and killing them, same with the Devils.

1. I ment his Domain Spells, spells he directly gets from Mystra herself, and the Silver Flame, a spell that constantly heals him and obliterates anything in it's range.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Oh. Ehhh. Domain spells can get negged, but still. There is something to be said for Elminster in particular, I'm just not sure what that something would be, since Mystra does take an active role in his affairs.

Anyhoo. Dargoo, please change my vote for Elminster. The second I found out Elminster resisted Tezz' best ability, I retracted my vote. Elminster should take this via equal prior knowledge, hax Tezz doesn't resist, and having a god back him up should she be able to get to him before he gets killed.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Would we even allow outside help in the match like that?

If so, Tezzeret rings up Bolas.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I mean

It isn't an AP thing. Mystra probably wouldn't physically fight for Elminster. She would, if he was in trouble, lend a helping hand. For reference. Mystra is above this guy and this guy, and is just a bit below this guy in terms of power.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

First or second keys?

 

[Udlmaster]

Second Keys.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

So, we're allowing 2-C/2-A dieties play in this?


Wouldn't that make this a massive mismatch, then?

 

[Udlmaster]

Woops, sorry, third key for Vecna.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

We probably shouldn't, no. Although even without Mystra's interference, with prep time I 100% believe Elminster takes this by resisting Tezz' best abilities and dishing out an instant-win spell.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Well, can he resist/bypass:

• Deathhax

• Mindhax via removing someone's mind from their body

• Sleep Inducement

• Soul destruction

• BFR that instantly EEs

• Paralysis through acupuncture

• Tezz liquifying any mettalic equipment he has and turning it into a 6-B attack

• Sending a creature into Elm's mind that can induce enough pain to cause a clone of Bolas to go to tears and dehabilitate and drive people insane

• 6-B Elemental, Metal, and Energy attacks

• Instantaneous countermagic + warding

Keep in mind their precog counters the other out.

Elminster - 2 (Udlmaster, Bambu)

Tezzeret - 1 (PixelKirby)

 

[Moritzva]

@Bambu Elm's only way of winning, Wish, can be counterspelled, and I'm fairly sure we are breaking some level of vsbattlewiki rules by letting them now take allies from friends- if I were the OP, I'd ban anything other than informational help from allies so we don't have Bolas sending his army of Eternals into battle against Mystra's chosen.

Elm's resistances aren't as strong as Tezz's hax, so without additional spells to enhance those resistances, they won't be enough (Wizard fort saves are terrible to insta death, Tezz could mindhax a trained and powerful 6-B mindmage), and additional spells can be powernulled. Really, Elm doesn't have much to deal with powernull, and that's the issue at hand here. Wish gets counterspelled. Okay, now what?

Not to mention Tezz has dura and speed advantage, so Elm can be AP blitzed, especially considering the plane is made of metal which he can manipulate. All his traditional weapons are als primarily metal, so Tezz can break them. As well, Tezzerret's Clockworking is much more powerful than Elm's resistances without spells enhancing them, and Tezz can again, counter any spell that Elm places to enhance them.

Could you name how Elm gets past power null, AP blitz, and any hax that has too high of a DC for him to make his save without help? (Not literally, but you get the point.)

 

[Mr. Bambu]

1. He resists all of those except maybe Metal Manip thanks to (just giving one example of each) Finger of Death, Mass Confusion (I think most mindhax is covered by general mindhax), Sleep, Tomb of Annihilation's very own Acererak, Paralysis is resisted through several characters via physical means so I think Acupuncture is not a special case, Power Word: Liquefy kek, can resist Nilbogism, which sends a fragment of a god into your head (well, Goblins can, who Elminster is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to, but Nilbogism never bothers to possess anyone else, anyways), and yes, many of his spells punch through Spell Resistance. Also, warding?

So Nezz can in theory metal and energy attack I guess and his other abilities are a maybe in some cases, but Elminster can just... wish. Since lolpreptime.

 

[Wokistan]

EE works on people who resist, in this case. How good's his resistance?

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Does it EE first or BFR first? If the former, then he resists pretty well. He can resist Maze after all, which is a fraction of The Lady's BFR ability IIRC. EE... then we run into an issue, since I don't believe stuff like Sphere of Annihilation can be resisted.

 

[Moritzva]

Wish gets counterspelled.

Also, a majority of those spells are not on the level of Tezzerret's hax.

(Removed his father's mind and absorbed it into his own. Made a device that would have given him control over Jace's telepathy. Created an alternate personality in a clone of Nicol Bolas that prevented him from using Clockworking), ... (Dispelled Jace's powers on multiple occasions. Survived direct attempts to attack, read, and possess his mind by having his father's mind take the attacks. Made himself undetectable to Jace's powers with a small amount of preparations),

Tezzerret's hax is above his natural resistances.

Also, the Blind Eternities: https://mtg.gamepedia.com/Blind_Eternities

Considering the Blind Eternities house 2-A beings like Emrakul, while I am less certain, I'm pretty sure Elm will have difficulties dealing with being there.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Explain counterspelling to me. Because if it works like just magic negation, that occurs in verse and Wish isn't subject to that sort of thing.

Yes they are. Or, at least, he resists those, too, but I don't feel like running along to bring in the exact stuff. Considering Nilbogism is capable of mindhaxing an entire kingdom, I don't think Elminster is in much danger.

"Natural" being key word. Stat Amp boyo. Magic is a lovely thing. Also this is the same point as the above.

Gods are 2-A, too.

 

[Wokistan]

Coungsrspells can be a lot of things. Redirection, reflection, spell sabatoge, power nullification, there's all sorts of mechanics that can do that.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

1. It isn't a projectile or anything, so unless it has shown to redirect/reflect causality manip-based reality warping I don't think those applie

2. Power null won't work, see above

3. Explain spell sabotage

4. Is this passive or something he must do manually? If so, what does he tend to lead with out of those four? How quick can he activate it? Because Elminster's can be activated via a word or some action being taken due to Contingency spell (lolpreptime.com)

 

[Udlmaster]

@Mr.Bambu I literally tried repeatedly saying that Wish being affected by "Counter Magic" is purely games mechanics like a Lvl 1 Fighter hitting a Greater God but he's ignored it EVERY single time.

I've also explained how Elm's resistances are applicable.

Also, Elm could be something called the "Magister" which has the following:

• A complete immunity to enchantment, and a +2 holy resistance to all magical effects
• Spell Resistance 20
• The ability to sense wild or dead magic zones
• They can hear whenever their name gets mentioned anywhere in the world along with the following nine words and the general direction of the speaker
• constant Mindblank protection
• The ability to cast levitate, true seeing, read magic and feather fall at will, and cast dimension door and water walk 6/day
• They can pass through ANY magical barrier of 6th level or lower without ill effect
• Complete immunity to a chosen spell of each spell level
• The ability to imbue permanency on any spell they know
• They get Spell Focus for every spell
• They prepare their spells in ten minutes.

 

[Moritzva]

...Because the comparison between a fighter and a confirmed way of dealing with a spell, dealing with said spell is a dog shit comparison, maybe.

As for finding exact examples of countering causality manip, it might be a tad difficult as a large amount of high 2-A hax was back over 10 years ago, when a lot of their products were books. But there doesn't seem to be any limit to what blue can counter- the countermagic they use is more or less universal, the only real limit being if you dare strong enough to do it. I haven't ever seen in the MTG story where a mage casts a spell and a blue mage goes "welp, that sucks, doesn't it?"

It can counter death magic and mind hax, as shown with fights against Liliana and Jace, but causality manip. was moreso from pre-mending days. While Bolas had mastery in blue magic at the time and was 2-A himself, it's not perfect evidence, but finding an example of Bolas countering specifically a causality manip. spell will indeed be a chore.

As well, power null can work in a lot of ways. With prep time, if Tezz believes Elm won't be able to deal with it, Tezz will lead with it. I'm not underestimating Elm's prep time, but Tezz has Clockworking. Let's say Elm resists him choosing a favorable timeline: he can still see every possible result of his actions, and plan accordingly. He may be unable to causality manip. Elm, but he can use that level of detailed precognition to his advantage.

Not to mention Elm's small city durability vs country level AP from Tezz- if Elm doesn't pack a ton of defensive capabilities or they get dispelled, he could get AP blitzed because Tezz has Mach 100 to Elm's Mach 64 as stated by OP.

I don't want to downplay a Wizard with prep time- lord knows how difficult they can be if you are a DM. Much less an Epic Level Wizard...


But Tezzerret is also a great crafter and will use the prep time too. (Removed his father's mind and absorbed it into his own. Made a device that would have given him control over Jace's telepathy.)

As well, Tezz's power null is described as: Power Nullification (Can use countermagic and disable other spells. Has devices that can disable magic completely and cause extreme pain to so much of a degree that it nearly brought a copy of Nicol Bolas to tears),

In the end, I'd like to see evidence that Elm could survive or concentrate on a spell to escape the Blind Eternities, also, since that is also a major power- no non-planeswalket being besides 2-A beings have been shown being able to touch down in there.

Edit: For Bambu: Countermagic can completely null a spell, and be done exceedingly fast. It's very adaptable, too. I also highly doubt Tezzerret can't make an object to power null across 3 days, considering he created a spell to incinerate zombies and could: Possession (Dispelled Jace's powers on multiple occasions. Survived direct attempts to attack, read, and possess his mind by having his father's mind take the attacks. Made himself undetectable to Jace's powers with a small amount of preparations),

Also, since he was capable of creating devices that could null magic and he has the speed advantage and thus first move, if he can stop Elm from popping Wish, he will b/c speed.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Wish just lolnope.jpg's him. With a contingency spell (lolpreptime) he can make this thought based pretty easily. So with an instant action he can use wish to just wipe Tezz from existence via reality warping + causality manip combo.

What does Tezz do to counter this? Specifically? Because it seems you removed spell sabotage from your old post and that was the only super viable one.

 

[Moritzva]

I just stated above; blue magic and prep time certainly gives him an out, at least for an amount of time. If needed, he can just dash forward and use one of his devices that disable magic completely.

Now what?