Elminster vs. Tezzeret

[Mr. Bambu]

Also, I literally said that with any amount of prep time, he'll lead with Wish. So I guess you agreed with me on that point?

Not really. It's just with more prep he would have access to spells that, for example, reorder reality to make his chances better. Or any number of spells that would make this a laughable, laughable stomp. At that point Elm would lead with plenty of things knowing each one of them would win since he could just ask a god "hey would this work?"

 

[Moritzva]

Silver Fire should be CRT'd on.

I could list dozens of matches where AP > Hax. Namely, a majority of the time where Ainz loses a match, honestly.

First, I covered that Tezz doesn't need to actually move at all, and his spells have kilometer+ range. What distance does he need to cross?

No offense, but your entire argument hinges on ignoring the simple fact that not only does Tezzeret have the range to hit him off the bat, but he will have the first move, and can literally just command the very metal beneath Elm's feet.

Arguing AP in a hax fight... It makes a lot of sense when that AP just kill them? You literally admitted that Elm doesn't properly resist Tezz's AP, which is a concession that it's a viable strategy.

The very simple fact is that Tezzeret's metal right below Elm's feet is faster than his ability to say Wish. Just look at their profiles.

Please, please, please debate this point properly. If your way of arguing this point is "oh that's a bad argument" and nothing else, your vote can not be counted.

 

[Moritzva]

Also, you bring up Elm, with a lot of prep time, just asking gods "Hey, can this work?"

When Elm can use Clockworking to see all different outcomes as a literal "Hey, can this work?"

Even if he's not allowed to manipulate causality and force an outcome, he can look ahead.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

He can look ahead at likely futures, with the more unlikely the future, the less he can see. So uh. Moot point, really.

Having kilometer+ range is bunk since that's still a range.

No offense, but Elminster also has the range to speak at him and die.

And yeah, it'd be a viable strategy if literally Elm just had to speak.

Metal would have to move upwards to get Elm. Speaking > Moving.

My point is debated properly. Elminster speaks. Your view that Tezz blitzes is ignoring 4 km and the fact that Elm can still just speak. I get that the situation is tilted in favor of Tezz in that

• the island is built so he can manipulate it

• he has far higher stats including speed

...except Elminster can deal with higher speed creatures (Quicklings are a good example of this, as they see lightning as static) and the spell linking below.

I think this was brought up earlier but just case this is relevant for prep time.

 

[Moritzva]

Your argument is repeatedly ignoring the notion that Tezzeret can just stop them, hit them, and doesn't need to move. He just thinks and casts a spell from a range, killing him before he has a chance to speak.

He has two days of prep. Any defensive spell can be dispelled or isn't strong enough to protect him. Tezzeret needs to think, just think of using the ground beneath him to kill him. To say the spell you showed would make him immune is a NLF; Tezz's AP is bigger by such a massive margin that the spell likely won't help.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

"Any defensive spell can be dispelled or isn't strong enough to protect him"

Prove it or it didn't happen.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Also, did you read the uh

link

I posted

where metal kinda just doesn't work if cast?

Because with Prep that can be used pretty easily.

So your metal argument sorta

dies.

 

[Moritzva]

>Tries to debate argument with a massive, walking No Limits Fallacy

Okay, yea, I have nothing more to say. If you're saying magic that can dispel and counter spells can't dispel Elm's spells, and that the resistances he gives his spells are absolute.

Ainz isn't immune to death magic even though it says so in the Overlord verse because that's a NLF. Your entire argument has literally become a NLF.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

wait what NLF

I'm like genuinely confused by what you're saying

Unless Tezz passively negs all magic at kilometers range, which is what I'm asking for proof of, that's yet another action Tezz now has to take. As opposed to Elminster's speaking. Furthermore, I've brought up a prep time spell that allows metal to just phase through Elminster. Which you still haven't addressed.

but yeah I guess NLF can just be called whenever

 

[Moritzva]

If your attempts at debating boil down to this, I think we will agree to disagree.

Also, seeing how it's been the three of us for weeks, I highly doubt this thread will ever get added anyways.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Probably true, but "agree to disagree" to my questions I assume means you just have no proof of Tezz managing to passively neg magic at 4 km and have a counter to Elminster just making it so metal goes through him.

I can get the FRA crew if you like, though.

 

[Moritzva]

You've repeatedly ignored or misconstrued points, resorting to passive aggressiveness over actually arguing. I have nothing more to say.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

My passive aggresiveness is pointing out stuff. I have no idea where the conclusions you're coming to are from. You have yet to address my actual points (in that Elminster can prep time against the metal, and that to negate such things isn't passive for Tezz so that's an action already when all Elminster has to do is speak).

But okay dude.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Tenative bump.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Points still same. With prep, Elm can have all metal phase through him and just has to use Wish to insta-kill. He resists Tezz' best attacks.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

I'm pretty sure Bambu/Kirbey have said their dues, so hopefully FRAs will decide the outcome.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Hopefully yes

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Bump.

Yeesh, 200 comments in and no grace in sight.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

not gonna happen my friend this thread is cursed

 

[Moritzva]

Very sadly.

 

[Udlmaster]

Well, what about the Magister stuff?

2-A spells?

Also, the Silver Flame is out of Tezz' dispell range, as it's an extension of Mystra's power/energy, which is 2-A.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Er. Do Magisters have 2-A spells? I know they're like God-Chosen but unless Elminster shares the 4e fuckery of Spellplague gg then I think the case is largely that A. no metal is gonna harm him and B. he resists all of Tezz' stuff and C. speaking with wish.

 

[Udlmaster]

I don't remember which thread it was, but I remember having a very brief chat with you, where I brought up the Magister.

I'll find it and post it here, since it's a talking point.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I remember you bringing it up, and it had really OP stuff, but I don't think we agreed it let them use their (Mystra and the other god's) direct power

 

[Udlmaster]

Here we go, so they have passive abilities:

The Magister's Sigil (Su): The Magister, like almost all powerful mages, has her own personal sigil, but can use the sigil of the Magister as well. Any other creature that writes the sigil of the Magister in a permanent manner (as opposed to tracing it in the air or on sand) must make two Will saves (DC 25 each) to negate a blindness and feeblemind (respectively) that last for ten days.

Spell Immunities (Su): The Magister is immune to one spell each of levels 0 through 9 as if protected by a spell immunity spell. The spells are chosen when the Magister takes office and cannot be changed thereafter. She is also immune to all forms of magical writing (such as glyph of warding, explosive runes, sepia snake sigil, and symbol), and her presence does not trigger their effects.

Mind Blank (Su): The Magister is constantly protected by a heightened (10th-level) mind blank.

Mystra's Shield (Ex): The Magister is immune to all enchantment spells and effects and psionics, and gains +2 holy bonus on saving throws against all magical effects.

Spellpurge (Su). When the character becomes the Magister, all existing curses, charms, and other spells and effects placed upon her by other people are removed. The new Magister is also offered an immediate teleport to a safe place where she can remain undisturbed for up to a tenday, learning more about the duties of the Magister. A new Magister is protected by spell resistance 50 and a greater ironguard spell, although these protections fade after 1d4+3 months and nine days, respectively.

Spell Resistance: 20.

Skills: Because she can mentally draw upon a link to an archive of knowledge maintained by the deities of magic, the Magister gets a +10 circumstance bonus on all Knowledge (arcana) and Spellcraft checks.

https://www.realmshelps.net/monsters/templates/magister.shtml

Can Tezz beat all of these?

 

[Moritzva]

If he truly has access to 2-A things, then this is certainly a stomp. I've admitted this before. 2-A is quite high.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I don't think those count as 2-A, but like

they are things

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Will this thread be concluded? Find out on the next episode of Dragon Ball Z!

Bump.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Characters like Elm are getting upgraded at some point to scale to the peak of mortal monsters (6-B to High 6-B), just saying

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

With prep or just with their regular magic?

Also this matchup is primarily hax based so IDK of AP is even that relevent.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Regular since top-tier mortals like Mordenkainen and Elm can feasibly beat up Elder Evils scaling to Father's world-freezing feat and Ragnorra's enormous crater feat

 

[Mr. Bambu]

FOR REFERENCE

Low 7-B is achieveable at lvl 13

As Epic Adventurers Elm and Morden are level 20-30

 

[Udlmaster]

Well with the Spell Immunities, Elm can negate Wish, a (At least) Low 2-C spell. And then there's the fact that Elm has a telepathic link with Mystra active at all times and is maintained by Mystra herself:

Skills: Because she can mentally draw upon a link to an archive of knowledge maintained by the deities of magic, the Magister gets a +10 circumstance bonus on all Knowledge (arcana) and Spellcraft checks.

And he can either ask for her help, or he can just use her knowledge as well.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Wish isn't Low 2-C

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Bump.

 

[ABoogieYesSir]

Elminster FRA

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

I think that's the first new vote after like two months.

Elminster - 3 (Bambu, Udl, ABoogie)

Tezzeret - 1 (Pixel)

 

[Saga89]

Elminster. To him two days are still a huge amount of prep time.

I will quote myself from the Elminster vs Ahriman thread (preliminary note: Elminster's evasio is a spell, not the same thing as the rogue's Evasion ability.)

About blitz

Elminster can't be blitzed (Elmnister's evasio plus contingency plus he always know when any gate and teleportation ability or spell happens around him 12 or 30 seconds before it hapens) have a humongous selection of spell, having access to core spells, spells from the Forgotten Realm setting and also spells from Greyhawk (this was from some Dragon Magazine but don't ask me which one). 2nd, 3rd and 3.5 edition high-level wizards have great powers over time: an infamous combination is celerity (or greater celerity) plus time stop

I know almost nothing about Ahriman, but the way I see things he still needs the beat celerity in order to be a challenge. Can his Time Manipulation do this? Otherwise Ahriman could be even Massively Faster than Light, but by RAW Elminster is always going to act first and cast his opening spells

And frankly, Ahriman may bring the fight to the Warp but still has to go around Elminster's celerity to avoid being put into suspended animation/static time or sent face to face with any greater deity (which always act first unless pitted against a similar or more powerful deity, so I doubt Arhy will get any chance of leaving the place). I found the idea of Ahriman sent to the Black Pyramid of Seth strangely amusing.

About viable offensive and defensive strategies that doesn't require much preparation (and yes, Elminster can sommon something that potentially is 2-A):

Even without him researching new crazy epic spells just for the occasion, he's able to summon 2-C infernals (Spellcaster Level required is 20 with gate, Elmnister has 29) and even the more powerful 2-C to 2-A hecatoncheires (SL required 26 with gate; their name on the wiki is wrong)

Even without all this crazy stuff, a spell resistence spell cast by Elminster would give him 40 Spell Resistence, which by D&D mechanics most entities (at least in D&D) below Low 2-C would find extremely hard to surpass

I'd argue that defensively Elminster is always prepared and that that is where he really shine, as in the Forgotten Realm Campaign Setting he's described as always being prepared to fight his equals (at least in magical skills) like Szass Tam or Manshoon and even an entire coalition of his enemies. And, seriously, all he needs to redo the entirety of his spell selection is 10 minutes with spell engine, so he could retire into his magnificent mansio, plan a new strategy and enact it at record time. Even while mad and severely weakened by both the absence of Mystra and the spellplague, he drove off all his enemies, mercenaries and multiple parties of high-level adventurers. He fears only Larloch the Shadowking, and only because said lich would start a fight with millennia of prep time. Regarding facing worthy opponents, all this incidentally means Elminster is not going to be out of shape.

To put things into perspective, striking from another plane of existence does not require any epic spell, for example a wizard can do this via gate but can also decide to be creative and annoying. For example, Elminster may strike from another plane via astral Projection spell' 'while his real body is hidden in his magnificent mansio protected by mind blank (it hides him from all divinations and renders him immune to mind manipulations), sending forth his projection that in turn may hide itself in another plane, into its own magnificent mansio, protected by misdirectio and nondetectio (to provide false results to divinations) while sending forth a projected image. And his projection (but not his shadow double from projected image) would still be protected by Elminster's evasio.

- permanently bind Leliana with bind, sequester, imprisonment or temporal stasis spells.

- permanently turn Leliana into a statue incapable of acting and use spells via flesh into stone. Proceed to disintegrate said statue.

- close Leliana into a prismatic sphere, negate all gate, summoning, plane shifting, teleportation and similar abilities within the sphere via dimensional lock, and leave Leliana contend with multiple spells like incendiary cloud and summoned creatures (summoned before casting dimensional lock ofc).

- use polymorph any object on Leliana to turn her into something with low mental ability scores to negate her spellcasting abilities. He can, for example, polymorph her into a steak and have lunch.

- Elminster has a spell to protect himself against anything, even if he doesn't know, or hasn't prepared, a particular spell (possibly because isn't a spell normally available to wizards) he can still copy it with limited wish or wish. Most notably, mind blank and death ward spells would guard him against almost everything Leliana would normally use.

- In the event Leliana can somehow kill him, Elminster's evasio will bring him back at least a second time, even from beyond death, Even should Leliana eat his soul.

All of the above only considering the core spells, I can't even list all possible combinations Elminster ha at his disposal (like prismatic sphere + dimensional lock + maw of chaos and God knows whatever else).

Foresight isn't that bad: Tezzeret needs to think and chose the best result, while foresight automatically directs you toward the best possible result. And it isn't the only way Elminster has to precog

3) Elminster can even Ahry's Probability Manipulation and Precognition via spells (like Foresight, Moment of Prescience, Divine Favor, and Improvisatio).

Also, he can copy all other divination spells below level 8 with wish or limited wish while on prep time to interrogate the gods and get a winning strategy planned. Or he could just ask Mystra.

A spell turning spell will practically counter anything directly targeting Elminster on top of other protections, and it will turn back the spell regardless of where it was cast from, may it be the Astral Sea or the Warp. Other dispelling/counterspelling spells are difficult to pit against other magic system since they are based on the relative power of the opposed spellcasters but technically a greater dispel magic can counter and dispel spells on any level below epic (see below for what epic magic is) and if Elminster is succesful at counterspelling any spell he may reflect it fully back. Also I repeat that as a spellfire wielder Elminster can absorb any spell targeted at him and convert it to raw destructive magical energy or heal himself. For good measure, I should add that Elminster is immune to mind reading and can't be blocked into a static time.

Between spell turning, Elminster effulgent epuratio, spellfire/silverfire and his Mastery of Counterspelling ability, not only Elminster can resist any dispel, but can also redirect it on Tezzeret.


Elminster can also survive the Blind Eternities

Elminster may be able to survive the Warp via avoid planar effects, planar bubble and attune form, probably by casting all of them to avoid being compromised by the dispelling of a single spell.

And at the top of all of that, even if Tezzeret succeed at killing him once, between Elminster evasio, contingency and astral Projection he needs to kill Elminster at least 4 more times.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

just as a heads up I restricted anything above 6-B and there isn't anything Tier 2 on his profile\

I assume that's a vote for Elm, then?

 

[Moritzva]

Honestly this entire thread is pretty muddled now. Lots of misconceptions and whatnot. I'm not sure where to go from here, really.