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Elden Ring General Discussion

You're forgetting the part where "base level" Godfrey is still the Godfrey that made killing Fire Giants a national sport AFTER going through decades, if not centuries, of fighting and getting stronger in the Badlands, which seems to be Elden Ring's equivalent of Mad Max meeting that one daemon world Tuska the Ork got stranded on. Just medieval.

That, combined with being returned to Grace, and I think he more than deserves his place as the penultimate boss, though he is maidenless.
 
Godfrey is on a league of its own honestly, the guy wasn't even a demigod, just a normal dude who became that strong on his own. No innate power, no divine assistance, just pure strength. Hell, even in his boss fight, you see his most spectacular attacks are not really supernatural, they're the result of his ridiculous strength
 
Crabwhale said:
If we're being honest it's likely that every single Crucible Knight has at least one Fire Giant kill under their belt.
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Considering there's only what, 20 of them? Yeah, it's very likely that each one had killed at least one member of the Fire Giants during the war.

Also, the Carian Knights were considered on par with them from what I recall, which I suppose makes sense if Caria could stalemate the Golden Order, at least until Radagon turned up the rizz. Which is funny to think about after the suffering at Moongrum's hand.
Crabwhale said:
From the way I read it, Godfrey wouldn't really have any reason to not beeline for the Lands Between the second Grace called to him. Why it took him so long I have no idea. Maybe he was one of the last to be revived. Maybe he just had to kill a shitton of people to get there.

Either way, there's no reason to think he has a Finger Maiden with him (doubly so since he's a late arrival and the entire institution that assigned maidens to Tarnished appears to have fallen apart), so even if he's full of runes, he's not using them for anything.
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Yeah. Plus, like, it's not like his base needed any boost to be as strong as he is considering he made light work of the Fire Giants and nearly all of the Golden Order's opponents.
 
Also, do we have any explanation for why the Crucible Knights are found where they are? Some of them I can kinda get (Stormhill, Leyndell Duo etc) but why were they in Nokron?
 
Planck69 said:
Considering there's only what, 20 of them? Yeah, it's very likely that each one had killed at least one member of the Fire Giants during the war.

Also, the Carian Knights were considered on par with them from what I recall, which I suppose makes sense if Caria could stalemate the Golden Order, at least until Radagon turned up the rizz. Which is funny to think about after the suffering at Moongrum's hand.
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I don't know if the Crucible Knights were with Radagon, they followed Godfrey and he departed a long time before Radagon came to the picture.
Planck69 said:
Yeah. Plus, like, it's not like his base needed any boost to be as strong as he is considering he made light work of the Fire Giants and nearly all of the Golden Order's opponents.
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Yep
 
ArkhamDC06 said:
I don't know if the Crucible Knights were with Radagon, they followed Godfrey and he departed a long time before Radagon came to the picture.
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I'm also basing it on them being described as not being any less than the greatest champions of gold. I think on one of the spell or sword descriptions.

Also, Radagon was still a Champion of the Golden Order before he was Elden Lord, and Godfrey was still around then. Wouldn't make sense otherwise for Radhahn to havr worked under him.
 
Planck69 said:
I'm also basing it on them being described as not being any less than the greatest champions of gold. I think on one of the spell or sword descriptions.
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They were Godfrey's personal guard. Inasmuch as the strongest ************ in the Lands Between short of literally God needs a personal guard.
Planck69 said:
Also, do we have any explanation for why the Crucible Knights are found where they are? Some of them I can kinda get (Stormhill, Leyndell Duo etc) but why were they in Nokron?
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From what I understand every single Crucible Knight went their separate ways after Godfrey was banished. They were war heroes and peerless fighters all, but more and more as the Golden Order became dominant, the Crucible was shunned and reviled as unnatural. It's why the Omen are treated as trash, it's why the Misbegotten are treated as trash. And it's why a lot of the Crucible Knights outright left Leyndell.

Hell you even have one right there alongside Tanith, the blasphemy faction leader, so for all intents and purposes their opinions as individuals seem to be pretty distinct.
 
That one chilling on that broken bridge in Nokron knows what's up. Just in a zen state.

So, what are the odds of us ever meeting that Outer God locked inside the Lake of Rot? Also, I find it funny how two/three of them are in the Lands Between (depending on how we take Mohg "standing before the Formless Mother") and the other two confirmed ones are somewhere in the void.
 
Emirp sumitpo said:
The Outer Gods don't have physical forms don't they? Idk how we would meet them
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The Formless Mother sure does. Or at least it has something close enough to physicality for the Blood incantations to rip blood off of her.
 
Emirp sumitpo said:
The Outer Gods don't have physical forms don't they? Idk how we would meet them
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The Scarlet Rot is implied to have a scorpion-esque form and the Formless Mother can bleed though. The Frenzied Flame is an everlasting fire. We don't know the appearance, if any, of the God of the Deathbirds. Honestly, the Greater Will is the most abstract of the lot.

Also, part of me thinks the Deathbird God is the ruler of the spirit world that souls went to pre-Erdtree and Golden Order.
 
Crabwhale said:
Also can we talk about how ******* BUSTED the Blind Swordsman is?

Man literally took an entire Outer God and taught Malenia everything she knows.
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Ikr? Dude got a sword from a fairy and fought an eldritch abomination, before proceeding to train its avatar to be one of the greatest warriors alive.
 
Also, I love how his sword is mid AF game wise, his outfit is a starting class and his charm works best for naked Tarnished with a sword. Truly, skill only.
 
Godfrey and that guy are proof that you can have all the power in the universe and it still won't amount to much if YOU CATCH THESE HANDS.
 
Emirp sumitpo said:
The Outer Gods don't have physical forms don't they? Idk how we would meet them
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Depends on the God. The Dark Moons (assuming they're among them) definitely have one (it's the moon appearing in Ranni's ending and it's implied one of the moons we see throughout the game is their body).
The Rot God apparently has a physical form similar to that of a scorpion according to the Scorpion's Stinger (we do see the Kindred of Rot literally worshipping the temple in which the dagger is in and we're confirmed Malenia's mentor trapped a God of Rot under the Lake of Rot, which is why it is the shithole it is now), Marika was stated to have slain the One-Eyed God during the war with the Giants and apparently the Cathedral of the Foresaken is part of a tomb of an ancient god related to Frenzy. In all these cases however, we're not sure exactly what these gods are (a deity like Marika who has been empowered by a higher entity, a true manifestation of the god themselves, a chosen avatar like Malenia or a vassal like the Elden Beast).

The Formless Mother is a particular case. She can bleed but considering you can use her incantations, which are specifically stated as working on the principle of stabbing her to use her own blood, anywhere in the mpa, she's seems to exist beyond space itself.
Frenzied Flame is apparently literally a giant yellow/purple flame when unleashed and the Fell God still exists possibly as the flame in the forge since it's stated Marika couldn't get rid of it, which is why she cursed the last Fire Giant to forever guard it.
 
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Crabwhale said:
Also can we talk about how ******* BUSTED the Blind Swordsman is?

Man literally took an entire Outer God and taught Malenia everything she knows.
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The Rot: I'm an Outer God that surpass even Marika herself and manifest as a disease that corrupts the lands, the sky, dragons and even Demigods.
The Blind Swordsman: I have a fairy and a sword. Your argument is invalid.
 
Interesting stuff I saw in a video about Leyndell.

We enter the city via a secret passages guarded by three Golems and a Draconic Tree Sentinel but we're shown there's a main entrance, complete with grandiose architecture, statues, pillars and a paved road leading to the capital in the spot we fight Margit a second time and where we find golden seeds. The door is locked however and if we look at the map, we see the entrance leads to...nothing. Or more precisely, a giant lake. Why the hell would the entrance to the capital city of the LB lead to a lake?

This doesn't seem to make sense until one look at the map. Leyndell is located above the Deeproot Ground, where lie the ruins of a Nameless Eternal City. The ruins are located on a giant waterfall. If you put the map of Leyndell and the map of the Ground on each other, you'll see the ruins and the missing parts of the city perfectly match the location of the lake to which the main entrance seems to lead (which is just as significant as the Mohgwyn Palace being located right below the Swamp of Aeonia and everything that entails). Also, if you look closely at buildings in the lower parts of the capital, you can identify elements that are surprisingly similar to Eternal Cities architecture. Okay, you can put it on reused models but since this is Fromsoftware we're talking about, it's doubtful. Now remember that according to the lore, the Eternal Cities were put underground by the Golden Order for trying to usurp Marika and even creating a weapon capable of killing the the Two Fingers. Based on this and the map, it's implied there originally was an Eternal City within Leyndell where there's a giant lake right now and the entrance was going through this path.

That or there was some giant bridge and it was destroyed by Morgott to prevent people from entering the capital during the Shattering.
 
Formless Mother definitely seems to exists outside of the space and time we know, seeing as you can stab her anywhere, including Placidusax's Arena.

Frenzied Flame seems to actually just be the flame you take within yourself. Then again, it can be summoned independently of that flame in minor emanation like the tower outside of the Dectus Lift as well.

Greater Will seems completely abstract and is likely the greatest of them all. I'd personally treat it as something similar to Yog-Sothoth in that it's an all-encompassing being with semi-independent fragments that are other Outer Gods, sans the Frenzied Flame.

Or maybe I'm wrong and GW is just golden Miyazaki
 
Planck69 said:
Formless Mother definitely seems to exists outside of the space and time we know, seeing as you can stab her anywhere, including Placidusax's Arena.
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Yep
Planck69 said:
Frenzied Flame seems to actually just be the flame you take within yourself. Then again, it can be summoned independently of that flame in minor emanation like the tower outside of the Dectus Lift as well.
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It seems to me the Flame itself is limited in scope, which is why it needs a Lord of Chaos to destroy the Erdtree, but like the other Outer Gods it can still exhert its influence over the LB even when imprisonned. Kinda like the Rot God is supposedly imprisonned but continues to create living forms
Planck69 said:
Greater Will seems completely abstract and is likely the greatest of them all. I'd personally treat it as something similar to Yog-Sothoth in that it's an all-encompassing being with semi-independent fragments that are other Outer Gods, sans the Frenzied Flame.

Or maybe I'm wrong and GW is just golden Miyazaki
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The GW is not made of the other Outer Gods, they're all distinct beings. It's interesting to note however that the other gods started to get more active when the GW seemingly abandonned the realm and not because it was overpowered. It's also heavily hinted it literally created all life (Hyetta says this when you progress her questline and considering she serves the Frenzied Flame, it would make no sense for her to paint an opposing god in a good light with a lie)
 
Not made of the other Outer Gods but rather an overarching force to me. But it's a pet theory of mine anyway.

Also, do we not consider the Astels and Fallingstar Beasts as a part of the life that'd be extinguished by Frenzy? Cause they're many of them out there in the cosmos. Or is it that we take the statement to only apply to the world of the Lands Between?
 
Probably the latter. The point of the Frenzied Flame is returning everything to the primordial Crucible, and as far as we know, the falling stars have nothing to do with that genesis of life.
 
Smh, ruining 3-A/Low 2-C Tarnished.

Anyway, in seriousness do you think that there are other worlds in the cosmos under the command of the Greater Will?
 
Crabwhale said:
Probably the latter. The point of the Frenzied Flame is returning everything to the primordial Crucible, and as far as we know, the falling stars have nothing to do with that genesis of life.
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The two are totally different stuff. All we know is that Hyetta believes all forms of life come from a "one being" and then the GW broke it apart but even if this is true, this would cause the end of all life and that would include the Fallingstars Beasts. The Frenzied Flame has nothing to do with the Primordial Crucible
 
Planck69 said:
Smh, ruining 3-A/Low 2-C Tarnished.
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Wasn't going to happen anyway. The highest confirmed feats we have are the GW creating the Elden Ring which can control the stars and the Elden Beast creating its pocket dimension (obviously, the GW would be much stronger). There's the whole one being stuff but we don't know if that's true
 
This is a manifestation of the Erdtree's primal vital energies - an aspect of the primordial crucible, where all life was once blended together.
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-Aspects of the Crucible

The Crucible is the primordial form of life that the Three Fingers wishes everything to return to. What relation it has to this One Great, or if said One Great even exists, isn't known. But it isn't important. The Frenzied Flame has EVERYTHING to do with the Crucible, as it is its end goal.

And there is absolutely no evidence that the stars are the same type of life as everything in the Lands Between. The only other thing we know of that fell like them is the Elden Beast, and that I think proves that it's a good idea to not take what Hyetta says as LITERALLY encompassing all life throughout the cosmos.
 
Crabwhale said:
You're forgetting the part where "base level" Godfrey is still the Godfrey that made killing Fire Giants a national sport AFTER going through decades, if not centuries, of fighting and getting stronger in the Badlands, which seems to be Elden Ring's equivalent of Mad Max meeting that one daemon world Tuska the Ork got stranded on. Just medieval.

That, combined with being returned to Grace, and I think he more than deserves his place as the penultimate boss, though he is maidenless.
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I'm not saying he doesn't "deserve his place", I'm saying we're not gonna argue for a "Prime Godfrey" key based on speculation that maybe he just never used the main thing everyone like him has, simply because we only see him for a brief while. We have no ******' idea what that guy was doing all that time except from a very broad perspective.

I don't mean to keep conversation on this, I agree Godfrey is a crazy powerful ************
 
Mr._Bambu said:
I'm not saying he doesn't "deserve his place", I'm saying we're not gonna argue for a "Prime Godfrey" key based on speculation that maybe he just never used the main thing everyone like him has, simply because we only see him for a brief while.
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I never even considered such a prospect when writing that argument. Truly, the VS Battles experience has completely rotten your brain son.
 
Crabwhale said:
I never even considered such a prospect when writing that argument. Truly, the VS Battles experience has completely rotten your brain son.
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It has led me to be preemptive when someone says something dangerous like "base level".
 
Planck69 said:
As said above, that was a rot-infested, dying Radhahn. I doubt the Fire Giants were fielding armies of top demigod level warriors honestly.

Also, unrelated but do we assume Godfrey has grown with the power of runes as well or are we just fighting Lv. 1 Hoarah Loux?
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Crab.
 
Crabwhale said:
-Aspects of the Crucible

The Crucible is the primordial form of life that the Three Fingers wishes everything to return to. What relation it has to this One Great, or if said One Great even exists, isn't known. But it isn't important. The Frenzied Flame has EVERYTHING to do with the Crucible, as it is its end goal.
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No, the Flame's end goal is to annihilate everything. The whole one great stuff is not even confirmed to be real but the goal of obliterating everything in the world of the Flame is and even if that's real, it involves burning the whole world and everything with it. The PC is just the first form of life in the LB, you know, the realm located on the planet the Flame wants to burn. Obviously if the Frenzied Flame succeeds, there won't be any PC because the PC will be included in the "everything" category
 
Erratum, cause I forgot something very important. The Frenzied Flame doesn't want to return the world to the Primordial Crucible. Want to know why? Because the Frenzied Flame wants to burn the Erdtree and the Primordial Crucible IS the Erdtree.

The primordial crucible (which is never capitalized in the game's script btw) is, very explicitly, just another name for the Erdtree, specifically referring its early state prior to Marika beginning her Golden Order and establishing her rule. The descriptions of the Crucible Knight armor, Siluria's Tree, the Godskin Set, and the Aspects of the Crucible incantations all make that clear, with the latter's descriptions even saying that they're "ancient Erdtree incantations" and "manifestations of the Erdtree's primal energies", they don't even get a separate incantation category: they're grouped with all the other Erdtree spells. They're also explicitly younger than the Elden Stars incantation, said to be the oldest spell in the category, further debunking the idea that the "crucible" predates the Greater Will and the Godskin set straight-up calling it "the crucible, the Erdtree in its primordial form.". Heck, if you pay attention, casting crucible incantations produces the exact same sigil◊ as casting Elden Stars (which as the signature (utterly annoying along with many others)technique of the Elden Beast is basically as GW-derived as it's possible to get).

Saying the Frenzied Flame wants to return things to the PC is wrong because the PC and the Erdtree are one and the same and the Frenzied Flame wants to burn the Erdtree along with the rest of the world.
 
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I don't think there's solid evidence to suggest that. The Erdtree has a tendency to take in elements from other religions as part of an integration process- it seems to me that the "ancient Erdtree incantations" could very well have been unassociated with the Erdtree at the time of their inception.

You might be right, but I also think you could be wrong, definitely unsteady ground there.
 
Mr._Bambu said:
I don't think there's solid evidence to suggest that. The Erdtree has a tendency to take in elements from other religions as part of an integration process- it seems to me that the "ancient Erdtree incantations" could very well have been unassociated with the Erdtree at the time of their inception.
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The thing is, nothing suggests anything else. We could still say that items descriptions are biased and do not necessarily reflect the truth but even that seems unlikely. The Crucible Knights remained faithful to Godfrey and were shunned by the Golden Order after their leader disappeared so they have no reason to lie for the benefit of the Golden Order and as I said above, the same information is given by the Godskin set and given who we're talking about, they have no reason to do that to.

True, I could be wrong but the same possibility is mentionned repeatedly in various sources that are clearly outside of the Golden Order (so the possibility of religious bias used to erase elements of former religions is quite low) and the fact remains these are the only precise explanation of what the PC can be and it fits with the nature of the lore (cause yeah, just in case someone wants to mention it, the theory saying the Erdtree was put over a great tree that existed before it is just a case of mistranslation, there's no great tree, the Erdtree has always been there). Also the fact that so many sources basically say the same thing and there's no way Fromsoftware would use the same model of a sigil to cast spells for two different kind of incantations, they're way too meticulous for that, every little detail counts and all details here more or less say the same thing. Would be weird to have all of that only for it to be revealed as wrong.

Just like the "Miquella is evil" theory is dumb because everything in the game suggests he's good yet people like to imagine he's secretly evil and I really hope this will be obliterated in the DLC but whatever
 
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