Elden Ring General Discussion

[Chritin]

Not necessarily. Ansbach goes to fight against PC Radahn but he probably gets quickly cut down so making Mohg superior to Ansbach doesn't mean Mohg would be on Lord level

While Ansbach and Thiollier both cannonically die in battle, to say the both get killed instantly is a bit disingenuous. Ansbach himself (while worried about the fight) is definitely sees himself capable of even challenging Radahn, and even gives Thiollier (an overall less experienced fighter) his praise endorsement for the coming fight. Ansbach also was a serious threat to Miquella in the past, who is one of the primary sources of Radahn's new power (minus his lack of rot and Mohg's body).

 

[Qawsedf234]

Ansbach also was a serious threat to Miquella in the past, who is one of the primary sources of Radahn's new power (minus his lack of rot and Mohg's body).

God Miquella was, Ansbach attacked demigod Miquella.

 

[Chritin]

God Miquella was, Ansbach attacked demigod Miquella.

True, I'm just emphasizing that he was already on the level of one of the most powerful demigods/empyreans even before facing Miquella as a god. Also, Miquella probably still had access to his light even before becoming a god since he created the discus of light incantation before coming to the land of shadow, implying that Ansbach would've at least needed to work around lightspeed attacks when even facing demigod Miquella.

 

[Thiag125]

I'm only curious if people would agree, since that puts Mohg on par with literal lord level characters. Guess it makes sense though, since he was trying to become a consort himself at a point.

Ansbach joining us in fighting radahn does not necessarily mean he scales to him, considering he dies no matter what. It's more likely that our tarnished did 99% of the job against Radann

 

[ArkhamDC06]

True, I'm just emphasizing that he was already on the level of one of the most powerful demigods/empyreans even before facing Miquella as a god. Also, Miquella probably still had access to his light even before becoming a god since he created the discus of light incantation before coming to the land of shadow, implying that Ansbach would've at least needed to work around lightspeed attacks when even facing demigod Miquella.

I don't think he was straight-up on the same level as Miquella, it's most likely a MCU-like normal Thanos vs Iron Man situation where he could hirt him but wasn't outright on the same level. The way Ansbach talks about it also implies there wasn't a fight at all, he took him by surprise with a single blow and at the last moment, Miquella managed to mind-control him, at which point it was over, meaning Miquella never needed to unleash his light powers and Ansbach didn't need to dodge and deal with them. I would also like to point out that, as a demigod, Miquella is perhaps the weakest of them physically (yes, even weaker than Godrick). He has the body of a child because of his curse (which is only broken after he crosses the Divine Gate) and is clearly no warrior, even after he becomes a God, he only helps Radahn with light-based abilities (which he obviously already had as a demigod but I guess turning into a full God made them stronger). He's probably an Unskilled but Strong Glass Cannon as a demigod (no combat proefficency and relatively weak physically but enormous sorcerous power).

My point is, Ansbach definitely harmed Miquella, enough that Leda fears him so the wound had to be grievous and judging by the way the incident is reported, Miquella charmed him at the last moment so he was actually pretty close but there was no combat, just a surprise attack and then bam! heart stolen, and it's more likely Ansbach is akin to the warriors we fight Radahn with (albeit much stronger). The feat is there and definitely established but it shouldn't mean he's above Mohg.

 

[Chritin]

Ansbach joining us in fighting radahn does not necessarily mean he scales to him, considering he dies no matter what. It's more likely that our tarnished did 99% of the job against Radann

Again, I think that's pretty extreme considering his excitement towards the coming fight. Ansbach as strong as he once was, and often downplays his current abilities. Yet he was still willing to partake in the fight with a balance of confidence and worry, and to say he dies instantly makes no sense when looking at the context of the entire fight. There's no reason for fromsoft to build this importance around them being a part of the battle just to die immediately. That's like saying Siegward did absolutely nothing in his fight against Yhorm and that the Ashen One did all the work in DS3.

My point is, Ansbach definitely harmed Miquella, enough that Leda fears him so the wound had to be grievous and judging by the way the incident is reported, Miquella charmed him at the last moment so he was actually pretty close but there was no combat, just a surprise attack and then bam! heart stolen, and it's more likely Ansbach is akin to the warriors we fight Radahn with (albeit much stronger). The feat is there and definitely established but it shouldn't mean he's above Mohg.

That's what I'm saying though. I agree that Ansbach is bellow Mohg, that's why I'm arguing if Mohg should upscale from Ansbach. Hell, Mohg was on the path to become a lord and arguably would've become one if Miquella didn't want Radahn instead. Plus, at the point in the game where we face Mohg (and Malenia too) we are already on the path to fighting high-tier characters like Vyke and the Fire Giant. Hell, Malenia herself can be argued to deserve high tier scaling with her status as a Goddess in her fight. It's honestly fitting too that the two bosses of the two secret areas in the base game are a would-be lord and goddess respectively.

Overall, I think Mohg could at least get a "possibly 4-A" rating, instead of the "likely 4-A" rating that all other lord level characters have to differentiate if you want.

 

[ArkhamDC06]

Again, I think that's pretty extreme considering his excitement towards the coming fight. Ansbach as strong as he once was, and often downplays his current abilities. Yet he was still willing to partake in the fight with a balance of confidence and worry, and to say he dies instantly makes no sense when looking at the context of the entire fight. There's no reason for fromsoft to build this importance around them being a part of the battle just to die immediately. That's like saying Siegward did absolutely nothing in his fight against Yhorm and that the Ashen One did all the work in DS3.

That's what I'm saying though. I agree that Ansbach is bellow Mohg, that's why I'm arguing if Mohg should upscale from Ansbach. Hell, Mohg was on the path to become a lord and arguably would've become one if Miquella didn't want Radahn instead. Plus, at the point in the game where we face Mohg (and Malenia too) we are already on the path to fighting high-tier characters like Vyke and the Fire Giant. Hell, Malenia herself can be argued to deserve high tier scaling with her status as a Goddess in her fight. It's honestly fitting too that the two bosses of the two secret areas in the base game are a would-be lord and goddess respectively.

Overall, I think Mohg could at least get a "possibly 4-A" rating, instead of the "likely 4-A" rating that all other lord level characters have to differentiate if you want.

Oh ok. I agree with that and I think Ansbach should also get this rating (I've prepared a blog for him already btw, still a bit incomplete though)

 

[Chritin]

Oh ok. I agree with that and I think Ansbach should also get this rating (I've prepared a blog for him already btw, still a bit incomplete though)

Dope. Once his page gets made I might make a CRT for Mohg and Malenia then.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Mohg could at least get a "possibly 4-A" rating, instead of the "likely 4-A" rating that all other lord level characters have to differentiate if you want.

I don't see Mohg really getting 4-A. Okina for example could harm him with his sword, but is was more or less considered dead. weight against Radahn by Blaidd. Scaling to Malenia I would get though, since he's canonically fought after.

 

[Chritin]

I don't see Mohg really getting 4-A. Okina for example could harm him with his sword, but is was more or less considered dead. weight against Radahn by Blaidd. Scaling to Malenia I would get though, since he's canonically fought after.

Honestly the Blaidd statement always confused me. It doesn't seem like he's saying "Oh yeah we all kinda sucked, you and Radahn were cool though", more so a "You put in good work against him, I'm sure you both loved that battle". Plus, In the context of Elden Ring at least, I'd argue the difference between 4-A and High 4-C isn't too too much?

Like lets take Rykard for example. Rykard needed the blasphemous claw give him a chance against Maliketh, but the claw didn't boost his stats at all. All it did was give Rykard a way of countering destined death. Outside of that, Rykard apparently had an okay chance of fighting off Maliketh.

I'm not saying all High 4-C characters in elden ring are on the doorstep of the high tiers, but I do think some of them like Mohg and Malenia are high enough up where they are closer to that level of power. That's why I say they could be given "possibly 4-A" instead of likely, since it's much more up in the air for them.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Honestly the Blaidd statement always confused me. It doesn't seem like he's saying "Oh yeah we all kinda sucked, you and Radahn were cool though", more so a "You put in good work against him, I'm sure you both loved that battle". Plus, In the context of Elden Ring at least, I'd argue the difference between 4-A and High 4-C isn't too too much?

Like lets take Rykard for example. Rykard needed the blasphemous claw give him a chance against Maliketh, but the claw didn't boost his stats at all. All it did was give Rykard a way of countering destined death. Outside of that, Rykard apparently had an okay chance of fighting off Maliketh.

I'm not saying all High 4-C characters in elden ring are on the doorstep of the high tiers, but I do think some of them like Mohg and Malenia are high enough up where they are closer to that level of power. That's why I say they could be given "possibly 4-A" instead of likely, since it's much more up in the air for them.

I think it's especially more likely with those two because they have outright transformations to make them more powerful.

 

[Qawsedf234]

I'm not saying all High 4-C characters in elden ring are on the doorstep of the high tiers, but I do think some of them like Mohg and Malenia are high enough up where they are closer to that level of power. That's why I say they could be given "possibly 4-A" instead of likely, since it's much more up in the air for them

I'm still not really for it, but whenever that CRT comes around we can just vote for it there.

 

[Chritin]

I think it's especially more likely with those two because they have outright transformations to make them more powerful.

Plus, they are two demigods directly supported by outer gods (minus Ranni since the whole Dark Moon thing is a bit different).

 

[CrackerVolley]

I'll probably work on Dancing Lion since I still find the idea of "two dudes eternally committing to the performance of a Dragon Dance to the point that they're basically a single entity now" very interesting.

With that in mind, I wonder how we should handle some of its abilities because of that, such as the healing command grab. I don't think it should be a life drain type of deal, since its basically the guys mugging you and drinking from your flask, but maybe "conditional Healing" would work with the condition being that the opponent has some sort of identifiable healing source?

 

[Thiag125]

Again, I think that's pretty extreme considering his excitement towards the coming fight. Ansbach as strong as he once was, and often downplays his current abilities. Yet he was still willing to partake in the fight with a balance of confidence and worry, and to say he dies instantly makes no sense when looking at the context of the entire fight. There's no reason for fromsoft to build this importance around them being a part of the battle just to die immediately. That's like saying Siegward did absolutely nothing in his fight against Yhorm and that the Ashen One did all the work in DS3.

He does admit to being terrified, and he had already lost to an inferior Miquella back when he still served under Mohg (though to give him credit where it's due, he actually managed to seriously hurt Miquella if Leda is to be believed).

I'm not saying he dies instantly, I'm just saying it's likely he didn't do much against Radahn. Thiollier also shows resolve in facing off against Radahn but I highly doubt Thiollier of all people canonically did anything to even bother Radahn and Miquella during the fight. Unfortunately information is too scarce to know how Ansbach actually did vs PCR, all we know is that he died fighting him. I'd put him below Mohg but above the tarnished characters (except the player ofc)

 

[ArkhamDC06]

He does admit to being terrified, and he had already lost to an inferior Miquella back when he still served under Mohg (though to give him credit where it's due, he actually managed to seriously hurt Miquella if Leda is to be believed).

I'm not saying he dies instantly, I'm just saying it's likely he didn't do much against Radahn. Thiollier also shows resolve in facing off against Radahn but I highly doubt Thiollier of all people canonically did anything to even bother Radahn and Miquella during the fight. Unfortunately information is too scarce to know how Ansbach actually did vs PCR, all we know is that he died fighting him. I'd put him below Mohg but above the tarnished characters (except the player ofc)

In all honesty, Leda has nothing to gain about hyping Ansbach's accomplishments, if anything downplaying his accomplishments would be more to her and Miquella's advantage so she certainly tells the truth

 

[Chritin]

I'll probably work on Dancing Lion since I still find the idea of "two dudes eternally committing to the performance of a Dragon Dance to the point that they're basically a single entity now" very interesting.

With that in mind, I wonder how we should handle some of its abilities because of that, such as the healing command grab. I don't think it should be a life drain type of deal, since its basically the guys mugging you and drinking from your flask, but maybe "conditional Healing" would work with the condition being that the opponent has some sort of identifiable healing source?

I absolutely love the Dancing Lion, so I'm happy to see it get a page. I think conditional healing would work, and yeah it would probably be attached to someone using an outside source for healing (IE it would probably work on other types of healing items in different series).

 

[Chritin]

He does admit to being terrified, and he had already lost to an inferior Miquella back when he still served under Mohg (though to give him credit where it's due, he actually managed to seriously hurt Miquella if Leda is to be believed).

I'm not saying he dies instantly, I'm just saying it's likely he didn't do much against Radahn. Thiollier also shows resolve in facing off against Radahn but I highly doubt Thiollier of all people canonically did anything to even bother Radahn and Miquella during the fight. Unfortunately information is too scarce to know how Ansbach actually did vs PCR, all we know is that he died fighting him. I'd put him below Mohg but above the tarnished characters (except the player ofc)

I feel like Ansbach is pretty understandable mix of confidence and worry.

• Righteous Tarnished. That was an astounding battle, to be sure. Now I suppose this leaves only one. But in truth, I cannot calm my quivering. Challenging a god is no small matter.
• (About Thiollier) I am afraid I underestimated the lad. Appearing frail in both body and mind, I presumed he’d be like to stumble upon the field of battle… What a fool I was. He serves another master, but Sir Thiollier performed magnificently. Perhaps he too quivers with anticipation. As do we.
• (Ask about Mohg’s death) Oh, something you want to get off your chest? Well, you needn’t worry. It was you, wasn’t it? Who defeated Lord Mohg. … Fear not, I bear no grudge against you. His Eminence was felled in an honourable duel, and such are the risks of seeking Lordship. Besides, what right have I to complain? I blame the enchantment more than anything. Righteous Tarnished. We will have our victory. I swear upon my blood.
• General Radahn. A pleasure to see you, after all this time. But those remains do not belong to you. Lord Mohg will have his dignity.

While he is concerned about the fight (and even states that the Tarnished feels the same way), he treats the battle as a challenge that can be overcome by all of them. He even swears to the Tarnished that they will win.

 

[Thiag125]

I absolutely love the Dancing Lion, so I'm happy to see it get a page. I think conditional healing would work, and yeah it would probably be attached to someone using an outside source for healing (IE it would probably work on other types of healing items in different series).

Yh I wasn't saying she was lying but in all fairness, I don't think Miquella was ever a warrior so idk how hurting him compares to hurting other more powerful demigods (when it comes to combat) like Radahn and Malenia. I may be mistaken but I'm fairly sure Miquella was a few times depicted and stated in game to not really be a powerful demigod when it comes to fighting abilities and his true power resides on his mind control/charm.

Ofc that's demigod Miquella, god Miquella is another beast altogether.

 

[Crabwhale]

Summation of a voice chat I was in a couple days ago.

 

[Thiag125]

I feel like Ansbach is pretty understandable mix of confidence and worry.

• Righteous Tarnished. That was an astounding battle, to be sure. Now I suppose this leaves only one. But in truth, I cannot calm my quivering. Challenging a god is no small matter.
• (About Thiollier) I am afraid I underestimated the lad. Appearing frail in both body and mind, I presumed he’d be like to stumble upon the field of battle… What a fool I was. He serves another master, but Sir Thiollier performed magnificently. Perhaps he too quivers with anticipation. As do we.
• (Ask about Mohg’s death) Oh, something you want to get off your chest? Well, you needn’t worry. It was you, wasn’t it? Who defeated Lord Mohg. … Fear not, I bear no grudge against you. His Eminence was felled in an honourable duel, and such are the risks of seeking Lordship. Besides, what right have I to complain? I blame the enchantment more than anything. Righteous Tarnished. We will have our victory. I swear upon my blood.
• General Radahn. A pleasure to see you, after all this time. But those remains do not belong to you. Lord Mohg will have his dignity.

While he is concerned about the fight (and even states that the Tarnished feels the same way), he treats the battle as a challenge that can be overcome by all of them. He even swears to the Tarnished that they will win.

I love him for hyping us up but like I said, I don't think it proves he did much vs Radahn. It sucks that all he's got in terms of lore when fighting radahn are a few lines of dialogue, and when Miquella shows up, he addresses only the tarnished exclusively and ignores Thiollier and Ansbach, implying he only really saw the player tarnished as a threat (or the biggest threat at the very least).

 

[Chritin]

Yh I wasn't saying she was lying but in all fairness, I don't think Miquella was ever a warrior so idk how hurting him compares to hurting other more powerful demigods (when it comes to combat) like Radahn and Malenia. I may be mistaken but I'm fairly sure Miquella was a few times depicted and stated in game to not really be a powerful demigod when it comes to fighting abilities and his true power resides on his mind control/charm.

Ofc that's demigod Miquella, god Miquella is another beast altogether.

Miquella was called the fiercest empyrean by Malenia, but whether or not you want to take that as a statement on his mind hax or something else is up to you. Ansbach says something similar with his line "he wields love to shrive clean the hearts of men; there's nothing more terrifying", so I'm inclined to think the former.

And yeah, god Miquella is something else (and tbh, I feel like gods need unique scaling independent of the lords to emphasize this, but that's a challenge for another day.

I love him for hyping us up but like I said, I don't think it proves he did much vs Radahn. It sucks that all he's got in terms of lore when fighting radahn are a few lines of dialogue, and when Miquella shows up, he addresses only the tarnished exclusively and ignores Thiollier and Ansbach, implying he only really saw the player tarnished as a threat (or the biggest threat at the very least).

Granted, Ansbach and Thiollier aren't really fighting Miquella for anything beyond revenge or his death. The Tarnished is the only one who has grander plans beyond killing Miquella, and so he is probably trying to convince him otherwise. Outside of his mind hax, he has no way to convince Ansbach not to want to take vengance, or convince Thiollier not to fight for St. Trina.

 

[Blackcurrant91]

Summation of a voice chat I was in a couple days ago.

UMM ACTSHUALLY