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Edo Tensei Regeneration Downgrade

Might be misremembering but the problem with High regen tho is that Madara never got completely enveloped by Jinton and then regenerated from it only a part of his body got hit.

Since according to the Regen page: "The ability to regenerate from a few scattered or lone molecules, atoms, or sub-atomic particles."

But I don't care either way just pointing it out.
 
Arc7Kuroi said:
Seems legit if the rules have been updated as such, I agree. It should be noted that the C0 databook description claims it'll vaporize the soul of the caster. So either, A) that's a mistranslation, or B) C0 shouldn't be used to base their regen on, since Edo needs the soul to be there but allegedly C0 vaporizes the caster's soul.

I agree, but I don't know if C0 can be used to measure their regen for the above reasons, did Deidara ever use C0 as an edo?
Click to expand...
Pretty sure the statement is poetic, given that Kabuto explicitly stated that the Edo Tensei works by summoning the soul from the afterlife and if they are not there the cast will fail, which means that Deidara's soul still existed.
 
Monkey_Dunno said:
Pretty sure the statement is poetic, given that Kabuto explicitly stated that the Edo Tensei works by summoning the soul from the afterlife and if they are not there the cast will fail, which means that Deidara's soul still existed.
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Vaporizing a soul isn’t the same as erasing it from existence.
 
Monkey_Dunno said:
The point is that for Edo Tensei to work you need the soul to be there in the first place, without the soul you cannot cast the Edo Tensei, as there is nothing to summon in the first place.
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I dont agree with none of this anyway the statement is clearly hyperbolic. Based on the fact obito stil found some flesh of deibara,it also says it vaporizated everything in vicinity,well manda clearly wasn't vaporized nor the trees around the area
 
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Monkey_Dunno said:
I never said it was the same. "Vaporizing a soul" just means that there’s no remains, so for it to be summoned would be impossible.
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It actually does not mean that. It still exists because its existence wasn’t erased. It’s just been vaporized, so it’s been turned into the equivalence of “soul gas” (vaporization is just turning sumn into a gas for an oversimplification) which could still be gathered and summoned.
 
Reio35 said:
manda clearly wasn't vaporized
Click to expand...
Would an explosion's blastwave be enough to vaporize a body?
Reio35 said:
nor the trees around the area
Click to expand...
Does this not qualify?
0363-006.png
 
If the rules have changed, there's nothing to be done about Low-Godly, so if we need a new classification, I support high regeneration for the following reasons:

•As already shown in the thread, Deidara vaporized Sai's brother, and he regenerated, he had his whole body reduced to vapor, so it should count as high regeneration.

•The rule of Edo tensei is: "As long as souls exist in the real world, bodies will continue to regenerate." The statement alone implies that no level of destruction of the body will kill the edo unless they destroy the soul along with it, so attacks like vaporization and atomization of the body are useless, and we have examples of this.

• In addition to the example cited above, where Sai's brother was vaporized, we also have the fact that it is implied that Oonoki's Jinton cannot kill Madara, and if we connect this with the statement about the body always regenerating while the soul is intact, so it makes sense. There is also the fact that the gudoudamas have an effect similar to the Oonoki's Jinton, but they could not kill the Kages, Obito had to add the Onmyouton into the equation to directly affect the soul (or as it is accepted on the site, directly affected the Ninjutsu Edo Tensei).

So, I think High regeneration should do, aside from a post-vaporization regeneration feat, we have statements to support that destroying the body at just about any level is pointless if the soul isn't affected as well.
 
Reio35 said:
well manda clearly wasn't vaporized nor the trees around the area
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Manda not to be vaporized is his feat, it's not because a technique vaporizes things that everything will be vaporized by it, that's why there are resistances and durability. And about the trees, the C0 vaporized everything inside the crater, as shown above, the trees outside the crater obviously weren't affected.
 
OneBleachHurricane said:
From Sasuke's explanation (Summon Manda > Genjutsu Manda > Swallowed by Manda > Dispell Manda all within a short timeframe), they weren't directly hit by the explosion just the blast wave (Which is PIS since he was only a few meters away from the epicenter of C0) so I don't think it would be Resistance.
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I explained badly, my bad. I didn't mean to say he has resistance or scale in durability for C0, it was just a generalized way of saying that a resistance or high durability can tank a vaporizer attack. I wasn't talking about Manda per se, but in general. Clearly he wasn't vaporized because he didn't receive enough energy because possibly Sasuke released the summon too fast, he doesn't scale to C0 or have resistance to vaporization
 
Well, I'll leave my thoughts here.

After reading the regeneration thread, I interpreted this: When a character has their entire body erased at the most fundamental level (with no quarks left), and then he regenerates from that damage through his soul, concept or whatever, then he receives Low-Godly regeneration. But, if he dies after having his body completely destroyed, and comes back to life thanks to his soul, concept, or whatever, he receives resurrection, because regenerating presupposes restoring damage to stay alive, but in a case where the character actually dies and then comes back thanks the soul or other connection, is not regeneration but resurrection, for to be regeneration he cannot die.

Examples:
•The character has his entire physical body destroyed at the most fundamental level possible and not die, however, from his soul, he restores the body, and stay alive. He has regeneration.

•The character has his entire physical composition destroyed at the most fundamental level possible, and dies, however, thanks to his soul, he returns to life and restores his body. He has resurrection.

That's what I managed to understand from the regeneration thread, and if I've made any mistakes, correct me.

My point here is: Edo Tensei's "Bodily Restoration" does not fit resurrection for these reasons: They cannot die, as they are already dead. Although has been said by Kabuto: "As long as his soul is bound to this World, he will come back to life", it does not mean that they die and come back when they are destroyed, it is more an expression of "they will always regenerate", I mean that because that was mentioned several times that they are already dead/they cannot die. Sasuke tells Naruto not to worry about the Kage as they couldn't die. Tobirama says that they are not affected by the Infinite Tsukuyomi because they were already dead. Tobirama says that if they are destroyed by the Gudoudama with the effect of Onmyouton, they will no longer regenerate and then they can die, in this case, due to how this site considers Onmyouton's relationship with Edo Tensei the "dying" that he refers to is that they will return to the Other World, as the jutsu will be completely nullifield, that is, the edos are already dead, "dying" for them would be returning to the Other World, and this does not happen when they are completely vaporized, they do not "die and come back", because they don't go to the Other World and return. Their bodies are restored, is regeneration, they keep "alive".

In short: The Edos are already "dead", they cannot in fact "die" by complete bodily destruction, they will keep "alive", being "alive" for them means their soul keep in the Living World, their bodies will restore after being destroyed. And since it's implied that no matter what level of bodily destruction, they will regenerate, it means that even if someone destroy their body at the most fundamental level possible, they will continue to regenerate thanks to the soul, so, the Low-Godly regeneration must be maintained.
 
Mid High Regen would probably easier to convincingly use with the already established feats. High regen pretty much depends on what you believe would happen if Oonoki atomized an edo's entire body with particle style and if they would regen or not.

I'm in the "yeah the Edo probably would regen" camp but, honestly, there's nothing definite since Onoki's only big Edo fights were Muu and Madara.

Particle Style never mattered against Madara and He opted to hold Muu in place and have Gaara seal him rather than try and delete him

I guess that could kinda be an argument if you think Oonoki believed there was no point in even trying to Juton him to finish him off but it's not a great one.
 
Godernet said:
Mid High Regen would probably easier to convincingly use with the already established feats. High regen pretty much depends on what you believe would happen if Oonoki atomized an edo's entire body with particle style and if they would regen or not.

I'm in the "yeah the Edo probably would regen" camp but, honestly, there's nothing definite since Onoki's only big Edo fights were Muu and Madara.

Particle Style never mattered against Madara and He opted to hold Muu in place and have Gaara seal him rather than try and delete him

I guess that could kinda be an argument if you think Oonoki believed there was no point in even trying to Juton him to finish him off but it's not a great one.
Click to expand...
Jinton isn't the only one who has destructive power down to the atomic level, have you forgotten that Gudoudama which is stronger than jinton, Edo Hiruzen was once hit by Gudoudama Obito so that only his waist was left and it could regenerate again?

I don't agree with Mid-high but I'm more inclined to agree with High regeneration
 
Is it necessary to only destroy the entire body at the atomic level to meet the requirements for high regeneration, while mid-high regeneration can it survive atomic level attacks and can regenerate again?
 
wait a minute? not that mid-high is just dust, if it's only mid-high why does onoki want to seal edo tensei while he has an attack that can destroy the atomic level so in conclusion in this wiki Jinton >> Edo tensei?

Forget it, I'm not interested anymore, I'm waiting for a good argument, I'm neutral here
 
Ren1999 said:
wait a minute? not that mid-high is just dust, if it's only mid-high why does onoki want to seal edo tensei while he has an attack that can destroy the atomic level so in conclusion in this wiki Jinton >> Edo tensei?
Click to expand...
I'm thinking you haven't been paying attention to the discussion.
 
Better late than never :cool:

After reading the regeneration thread, I interpreted this: When a character has their entire body erased at the most fundamental level (with no quarks left), and then he regenerates from that damage through his soul, concept or whatever, then he receives Low-Godly regeneration. But, if he dies after having his body completely destroyed, and comes back to life thanks to his soul, concept, or whatever, he receives resurrection, because regenerating presupposes restoring damage to stay alive, but in a case where the character actually dies and then comes back thanks the soul or other connection, is not regeneration but resurrection, for to be regeneration he cannot die.
Click to expand...

Kinda?, what the regeneration thread was discussing if you have someone stated to be capable of surviving as long as this fundamental aspect about themselves stays intact, such as their soul or mind, should we give them any form of Godly regeneration or not. And it was decided on that we shouldn't because they lack the fundamental quality of actually regenerating, or being directly stated capable of regenerating from Godly levels of damage, we don't presuppose that since you're capable of "surviving" after having some of your fundamental existences destroyed it means you're capable of regenerating from that level of damage, it would be at best resurrection since you're only capable of resurrecting your form after it's destroyed.

So while Edo Tensei may or may not resurrect themselves perse, at least from the damage shown, they don't have the fundamental quality of regenerating from Godly levels of damage either, so we shouldn't assume they are capable just from that statement alone when they lack that fundamental quality.

My point here is: Edo Tensei's "Bodily Restoration" does not fit resurrection for these reasons: They cannot die, as they are already dead. Although has been said by Kabuto: "As long as his soul is bound to this World, he will come back to life", it does not mean that they die and come back when they are destroyed, it is more an expression of "they will always regenerate", I mean that because that was mentioned several times that they are already dead/they cannot die. Sasuke tells Naruto not to worry about the Kage as they couldn't die. Tobirama says that they are not affected by the Infinite Tsukuyomi because they were already dead. Tobirama says that if they are destroyed by the Gudoudama with the effect of Onmyouton, they will no longer regenerate and then they can die, in this case, due to how this site considers Onmyouton's relationship with Edo Tensei the "dying" that he refers to is that they will return to the Other World, as the jutsu will be completely nullifield, that is, the edos are already dead, "dying" for them would be returning to the Other World, and this does not happen when they are completely vaporized, they do not "die and come back", because they don't go to the Other World and return. Their bodies are restored, is regeneration, they keep "alive".
Click to expand...

You're misunderstanding what "reviving oneself or others after they have died" means on our Resurrection page, which is fine since the page doesn't really explain it well. When it's referencing "after they died", it's referencing what's considered to be "death" within the context of the scene/verse in question, you can have someone that's already "dead" but aren't considered to be "dead" since they're still moving around, capable of doing actions etc. Things which those who are considered to be "alive" are only capable of doing. So while yes Edo Tensei's are consistently stated to be "dead", they are also considered to be "alive" as well since they still keep coming back to the material world as their soul is bounded to it, unlike say, The Pure Lands.

So Resurrection would be perfectly usable in this situation, but even if we were to steelman your argument, we still lack the fundamental quality of Edo Tensei's actually, or being stated capable of regenerating from Godly levels of damage, which is a requirement for Godly levels of regeneration.

In short: The Edos are already "dead", they cannot in fact "die" by complete bodily destruction, they will keep "alive", being "alive" for them means their soul keep in the Living World, their bodies will restore after being destroyed. And since it's implied that no matter what level of bodily destruction, they will regenerate, it means that even if someone destroy their body at the most fundamental level possible, they will continue to regenerate thanks to the soul, so, the Low-Godly regeneration must be maintained.
Click to expand...

No, you need that fundamental quality of regeneration that Edo Tensei's lack, you either need direct feats or statements, both of which Edo Tensei's don't have, therefore they would lose their Low-Godly, full stop.
 
Deceived3596 said:
You're misunderstanding what "reviving oneself or others after they have died" means on our Resurrection page, which is fine since the page doesn't really explain it well. When it's referencing "after they died", it's referencing what's considered to be "death" within the context of the scene/verse in question, you can have someone that's already "dead" but aren't considered to be "dead" since they're still moving around, capable of doing actions etc. Things which those who are considered to be "alive" are only capable of doing. So while yes Edo Tensei's are consistently stated to be "dead", they are also considered to be "alive" as well since they still keep coming back to the material world as their soul is bounded to it, unlike say, The Pure Lands.
Click to expand...
What is considered dead in Naruto is going to whatever other world they believe, as far as we know Edo tensei dont have their souls ever going back and forward from "the other world". It makes no sense that having their bodies entirely vaporized would count as death because then there would be no low godly level because having a soul in the living world is not enough. And the undead part of immortality explain that they are "technically dead" they might have their soul in the living world but they are moving using dead bodies which is what matters because it makes no sense to have a soul that is in "the other world" and the same soul also in the living world.
 
I'm not entirely sure what you're saying in this post given the poor grammar, but from what i'm interpreting, them being vaporized was considered to be them "dying", that's why when they are resurrected Kabuto makes the statement about their souls being bound to the world, allowing them to come back to "life", necessarily entailing that they did, in fact "die" when their were vaporized. You can't bring something back to "life" if it isn't "dead".
 
Although not explicitly stated, the scan alludes to the existence of two distinct forms of immortality, the first being type 8, which is grounded on the notion that the soul of their being persists indefinitely, and the second being type 4, which involves the reconstitution of their being following death.

It is still unclear where the regenerative capacity fits within these classifications.
 
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