EarthBound Massive Speed Downgrades

[VileShadows]

For a while now, many EarthBound characters have their speed rated as "Speed of Light". This is incredibly wrong.

The SoL ratings come from the assumption that the playable characters can dodge PK Flash. This is not true. The only way to avoid getting hit with PK Flash is if the move itself fails, it is impossible to actually dodge a successful PK Flash.

Now, prior to the SoL ratings, many of the characters were MHS+ for being able to dodge PK Thunder and other comparable lightning attacks. Again, this is not true. Same case with PK Flash mechanically speaking. Can only be avoided if the move itself misses or fails, it cannot be dodged.

What is an acceptable speed then? In Mother 3, the main party is capable of dodging shouts from the Steel Mechorilla. Due to this, a reasonable speed for 7-C EarthBound characters should be Supersonic.

I would've spoken up about this long ago, but I have terrible social anxiety and don't often participate in discussions, which is why I'm more of a lurker on this site than anything.

 

[Chrisras]

Mother 3 main party can dodge light attacks from the K9000.

 

[VileShadows]

Haven't played through Mother 3 in quite a while so I can't give a perfect response to this reason. I will say though that SoL for the 7-C characters still sounds like a ludicrous stretch to me. If they were all SoL, there would be virtually no point in using PSI Teleport to get places, and things like PK Thunder and PK Flash would become mechanically possible to dodge.

Regardless, the reasoning for the SoL ratings should be changed at the very least. The current description credits the rating to PK Flash, which is incorrect.

 

[Chrisras]

It usually doesn't make sence for a lot of characters to be FTL and still be able to move like a normal human during areas where there's no combat, specially for games, so I would blame stuff like game mechanics for that aspect.

About changing the justification, I agree.

 

[VileShadows]

Okay, cool. Glad we agree on that.

Also, another thing that kind of bothers me is the description for the Dark Dragon's AP. I agree with it being 2-C since it eclipses Giygas in power, but the description says "Resets multiple universes upon waking up" which sounds sketchy to me, because it's only been seen resetting one.

 

[Noahkaismith]

Okay, cool. Glad we agree on that.
Also, another thing that kind of bothers me is the description for the Dark Dragon's AP. I agree with it being 2-C since it eclipses Giygas in power, but the description says "Resets multiple universes upon waking up" which sounds sketchy to me, because it's only been seen resetting one.

EarthBound is a multiverse, if I remember correctly.

 

[VileShadows]

It is not. As someone with a lot of knowledge on this series, I can tell you that there is only one universe that we know of. All three games takes place in the same universe, which is partly why the main cast in every game is 7-C. There is no mention of any other universes in any of the games. An EarthBound "Multiverse" is pure speculation.

Even if there was a multiverse, that doesn't automatically mean the Dark Dragon resets multiple universes. As I said in my previous post, it has only been seen resetting one at any given time. The 2-C rating is still fine because of the massive gap between the Dark Dragon and Giygas (the former can effortlessly erase the latter), but the justification must be changed.

 

[Chrisras]

By that reasoning, the Dark Dragon is not 2-C.

That would be "At least Low-2C". There's not even confirmation that the Dark Dragon is stronger than Giygas, that's also pure speculation.

Most of the ratings come from thisblog, however, these could be already outdated by our today standars.

 

[VileShadows]

There isn't direct confirmation, but think about the context of what the Dark Dragon can do. It can completely rewrite the world, erasing evil in the process. Giygas is the embodiment of evil itself, so it seems like pretty straightforward scaling to me. Admittedly "At Least Low 2-C" does sound better than 2-C though, as it makes less assumptions.

 

[Chrisras]

Conceptual Manip is just hax to my knowledge, and the embodiment of evil thing was debunked. As far as him aware, the 2-C comes from an interview thing.

 

[VileShadows]

Debunked how? The plot makes it pretty clear that Giygas is a collection of all the evil in the universe, so I'd like to hear this.

The Dark Dragon page should still be revised though. 2-C or not, it does not reset multiple universes. The justification should be changed to reflect the interview. I propose the following change:

At Least Universe Level+ (Depending on who awakens it, the dragon will either reset or destroy the universe), Likely/Possibly Multi Universe Level (It has been stated in an interview that the Dark Dragon could destroy both the in-game universe and the real-world universe had Claus pulled the last needle)

 

[Chrisras]

If he was truly the embodiment of evil, he would not been able to be destroyed in the first place, since as long as evil exist, he should always be able to come back, since he embodies the concept, yet after Mother 2 he's gone forever, and there's still evil in Mother 3, so if he was evil itself, there shouldn't be more evil in the universe.

About the change to his tier, I agree, that something that's always been bothering me, and there should also be a better wording for his abilitie, since it only describes one of the 3 options he has depending in the heart of the awakener.

 

[VileShadows]

Okay, I can see where you're coming from.

Okay, so the changes we both agreed on are: 1.SoL rating for 7-C Characters is due to the K9000, not PK Flash, 2. Dark Dragon is At Least Low 2-C, Possibly 2-C. Description should be changed to match.

Should we make these changes, or do we need a staff member or what?

 

[Chrisras]

Staff member, the most important pages are blocked.

Likely put you're suggestion here, since is where most changes to the verse will apply, and as already important people participating, so it should be easier to make it noticible.

 

[VileShadows]

Alright, I will do that. I can't think of any other changes that should be made at the moment, so this thread can be concluded for now. I will make a post on that thread.