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Earthbound Downgrades and minor revisions

ArbitraryNumbers

VS Battles
Retired
4,652
1,328
The profiles for the four heroes of Earthbound are 7-B via tanking nukes.

Wikipedia states that the bombs that hit Hiroshima and Nagasaki were about 15 kilotons and 20 kilotons respectively.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TNT_equivalent

(Refer to the Examples section)

I also highly doubt that the value of the Nuclear Reactor Robot explosions were in the 50-100 megaton range, as significant portions of Eagleland, if not Eagleland in its entirety, would be destroyed by the NR robots. I know it's gameplay mechanics, but saying that an explosion as powerful as the bomb that hit Hiroshima goes off every time a Nuclear Reactor robot goes off is just ridiculous, let alone a 50 megaton bomb that's ~50,000 times greater.

Putting them in the Town level range is extremely generous here. Thus we should go with an absolute low end; the same section of wikipedia states that modern nuclear weapons in America range from 0.3 Kilotons to 50 megatons. Obviously I'm not going to go with 50 megatons, so we should go with 0.3 kilotons instead, which is Multi-City Block level. This ranking seems much more believable to me and not as oudlandish a a 50 Megaton bomb.

Also, the reasoning for this scaling to attack potency is strangely worded as well. "Comparable to durability" should be changed to something along the lines of "Can trade blows with opponents capable of damaging him/her" or "can damage opponents who are also capable of surviving said explosion" (Referring to the starmen and other robots who fight alongside the Nuclear Reactor Robots).

Poo, Paula, Ness, and Jeff should all get this downgrade, as well as Pokey and those in Mother 3 who scale to him.

Here's a calc for Buzz-buzz that should support Town level in consistency:

Ebcalc
(Buzz Buzz survives being inside a meteor that crashes down to earth)
Ness' height: 48 px (With respect to the dimensions of my screen, not the picture

Average 13 year old height: 152 cm

152 / 48 = 3.2 cm per pixel

Meteor width: 65 px * 3.2 = 208 cm, 104 cm for the radius

Plugging this into a sphere volume calculator will get you 4,710,000 cm^3.

Density of meteors: 3 g/cm^3

4,710,000 * 3 = 14,130,000 grams, or 14,130 kg

Meteors can range from 11,176 m/s (Mach 32) to 71,526.4 m/s (Mach 208). An average between those two ends would be 41,351.2 m/s (Mach 120).

Via kinetic energy...

Low end: 882,439,525,440 Joules, or Multi-City Block level

Mid end: 12,080,597,103,273.6 Joules, or Small Town level+

High end: 36,144,722,962,022.39 Joules, or Town level

This scales to all of the Starmen, as they should be superior to the Starman Junior, who was capable of holding his own against Buzz Buzz. This also scales to early game Ness, as he can briefly hold his own against the Starman Junior, which by extension would scale to the rest of the four heroes, even in the early game.
 
Highlighting for further input.

Hop sort of agrees with the AP downgrade based on the scaling. Also, yeah, while nukes are seen as Tier 7, if they're more like the WWII ones, Tier 8 range is more believable, but let's get the reference in anyways.

Could you please include a picture or video of the explosion? We could avoid calcs altogether this way.
 
It's not really a calcable explosion. It was stated in the official game guides that the Nuclear Reactor Robots are actual nukes, apparently.

EDIT: Added links to their profiles in the OP.
 
That what Hop said. We don't have to calc it if we can see it.

Also knowing when kind of nukes they compare to matters more. as nuclear bombs have more Tier variety than human beings.

Also not very familiar with our wiki's policy on game guides, but how reliable and official are they?
 
Honestly 8-A seems way too much of a lowball. Even 8-A robots would quickly damage the terrain noticably, so I don't think it's reasonable to put them this low due to this logic.
 
@Hop

According to our page on canonicity, textbooks and such are considered secondary canon. But since Earthbound doesn't really have much else to offer in terms of feats, I'm assuming that the guidebook is reliable in this case.
 
@Antoniofer

Modern US weapons can range from 0.3 kilotons to 50 megatons according to wikipedia, but I think it's safer to assume 15-20 kilotons than 50 megatons.
 
I wholeheartedly agree with the Town rating. I also don't think the Earthbound Zero cast should scale at all, since they scale off an enemy that just looks like the Nuclear bomb guy. The revision regarding their upgrade wasn't even accepted AFAIK so I have no clue why they were upgraded anyway.
 
Town level seems fine, yes.
 
Here's a mini calc for Buzz-buzz that should support Town level in consistency:

Ebcalc
(Buzz Buzz survives being inside a meteor that crashes down to earth)
Ness' height: 48 px (With respect to the dimensions of my screen, not the picture

Average 13 year old height: 152 cm

152 / 48 = 3.2 cm per pixel

Meteor width: 65 px * 3.2 = 208 cm, 104 cm for the radius

Plugging this into a sphere volume calculator will get you 4,710,000 cm^3.

Density of meteors: 3 g/cm^3

4,710,000 * 3 = 14,130,000 grams, or 14,130 kg

Meteors can range from 11,176 m/s (Mach 32) to 71,526.4 m/s (Mach 208). An average between those two ends would be 41,351.2 m/s (Mach 120).

Via kinetic energy...

Low end: 882,439,525,440 Joules, or Multi-City Block level

Mid end: 12,080,597,103,273.6 Joules, or Small Town level+

High end: 36,144,722,962,022.39 Joules, or Town level

This scales to all of the Starmen, as they should be superior to the Starman Junior, who was capable of holding his own against Buzz Buzz. This also scales to early game Ness, as he can briefly hold his own against the Starman Junior, which by extension would scale to the rest of the four heroes, even in the early game.
 
@Azathoth

Are you okay with the Town level downgrades?

Also, 7-C Mad Duck for trading blows with Jeff.
 
I think it make more sense to scale the meteor off the trees than Ness and co. Though hilariously, that scales to Picky Minch and Pokey's mother, lol.
 
If we scale from the trees then we might actually get a City level meteor, but at least we'll get some actual values on their stats.

But anyways the tree resembles an Oak tree, and the Territorial Oaks also use similar sprites to that tree (although not entirely). Oak trees can be up to 70 feet high, so already that's going to make a huge difference.

I'll recalc the meteor feat, but using pixel scaling from the trees instead. Gimme a moment.
 
Height of tree: 86 px
Ebcalc2
Oak trees can grow up to 70 feet, or 2,133.6 cm

2,133.6 / 86 = 24.8 cm per pixel

24.8 * 96 = 2380.8 cm, 1190.4 cm for the radius

That makes the volume 7,070,000,000 cm^3.

Density of meteors: 3 g/cm^3

7,070,000,000 * 3 = 21,210,000,000 grams, or 21,210,000 kg

via kinetic energy, this would place the meteor at 18,133,720,067,971,196 Joules, or 4.3 Megatons, which is Small City level+ (Using 41,351.2 m/s for velocity).

Low 7-B+ Lardna, Picky, and Aloysius Minch it is.
 
Hm, the scaling here seems to be a problem here since there's no consistent in sizes, I would suggest to read what the characters say about the meteorite/crater to determinate it, otherwise, just use the low-end (child's height). Need to ask other thing, did the meteorite crushed someone or who was the damaged here?
 
For the sake of a lowball, according to this, Oak trees can be as small as 50 feet (15.24 Meters).

96 / 86 = 1.116279069767442

15.24 * 1.116279069767442 = 17.01209302325582 Meters.

17.01209302325582 / 2 = 8.50604651162791 Meters

(4 × pi × 8.50604651162791^3)/3 = 2,577.93444111 m^3

We use 3.5 g/cm^3 (3,500 kg/m^3) for Meteors I believe, since it was accepted for the Doffy calcs.

2577.93444111 * 3,500 = 9,022,770.54389 kg

9,022,770.54389 * 0.5 * 11,176^2 = 5.6348545e+14 J

134 Kilotons
.
 
Yeah, unfortunately Earthbound had really bad scaling. Massive dungeons and buildings weren't to much bigger than kids. Whether or not the tree scaling or kid scaling is accepted I'm fine with.
 
Why not scale the meteor from the tree base instead of the tree height, seeing as the camera is at an angle? Also, given that the meteor most definitely did not impact the ground with 100% of its KE (some would be lost to sound/heat/light), why not scale the AP of the meteor from the crater it left?
 
The problem with scaling is that the game doesn't show the proper sizes (kids and trees doesn't seems that different in size), I suggested to read the comments during the scene, but doesn't seem slike anyone said something relevant.

Same problem with the crater, also, it would yield pretty low results since doesn't seems that destructive, could be used for the lowest end tho.
 
I don't think that's the game showing trees out of proportion I'm pretty sure those are just bushes. The game doesn't really have a problem showing more realistic trees.

(tbf those trees too are fairly small, but they at least look like trees)

If we want another feat, can't they take hits from this thing?
 
@Cano. My memory is a bit fuzzy, but I believe that's just a basic encounter in the mid-end game, so yep.
 
Yeah, you have a fair point.

Although calcing the crater could probably give us 9-A to 8-A if we assume vaporization.

And like I said, the Territorial Oaks, which are sentient Oak trees, use similar sprites to that tree I scaled. But yeah, I do agree with calcing from the width of the tree's body instead of its height.
 
Can't use vaporization at least it is sated, using pulverization is the most that can be done; even tho I doubt that it exceed 8-B, not even High 8-C.
 
I meant to say 8-C, but Pulverization should still yield a good result around that level. Plus the gang fights giant monsters like the Kraken regularly, so it should be consistent.
 
I agree. I too questioned how City level would imply the "nuke" was an extreme highball. But because they were already rated City level when I edited their profiles, I left it.

Scaling to Buzz Buzz seems ok. It's funny considering how easily Pokey's mom kills him later but you could explain that as Buzz Buzz using its psychic powers to fight/survive the meteor but being a vunerable fly otherwise. It would also scale EB0 and EB very easily as EB0 also has a Starman Jr you fight (who would scale to Buzz Buzz).

I don't see what the problem of scaling Ness to the meteor is?
 
So I'm finally gonna get around to calcing this crater.
Screenshot 2017-04-16 at 4.30.01 PM
Low end

Ness height: 47 px

Average 13yo height: 152 cm

152 / 47 = 3.2 cm per pixel

Crater radius: 38 px, or 121.6 cm

radius of meteor (To be used as the depth of the crater): 31 px, or 49.7 cm

Plugging these values into an Ellipsoid Calcluator will get you 3,080,000 cm^3

Divide that by two

1,540,000 cm^3

Pulverization (40 j/cm^3) puts this at 61,600,000 Joules, or Small Building level.

High end
Tree width: 15 px

The trunks of Oak trees can be up to 9.5 feet, or 289 cm

289 / 15 = 19 cm per pixel

Crater radius: 38 px, or 722 cm

Meteor radius: 31 px, or 589 cm

Repeat process from before...

Volume of crater (after dividing ellipsoid volume by two):

645,000,000 cm^3

Pulverization (40 j/cm^3): 25,800,000,000 Joules, or Large Building level (Idk whether or not to add the +).
 
To make notice, you should use 121.6ˆ2*99.2 instead of 121.6*99.2ˆ2, there are two radius of that length; also, it seems like the meteorite is more than the half sunk in the ground, that last radius could be higher, or smaller (if the meteorite result to being an ellipsoide).

EDIT: Where's the 16 px coming from? I can't see it in the pic; 40 J/cc is pulv value for ground?
 
LoudCloud said:
I don't see what the problem of scaling Ness to the meteor is?
Earthbound's scaling tends to be very inconsistent. Massive dungeons can be only around two or three times bigger than the characters, oak trees are hardly any bigger than them, ducks are exactly the same size as them, etc.
 
Antoniofer said:
To make notice, you should use 121.6ˆ2*99.2 instead of 121.6*99.2ˆ2, there are two radius of that length; also, it seems like the meteorite is more than the half sunk in the ground, that last radius could be higher, or smaller (if the meteorite result to being an ellipsoide).
EDIT: Where's the 16 px coming from? I can't see it in the pic; 40 J/cc is pulv value for ground?
Ellipsoids use a completely different formula than that.

Screenshot 2017-05-12 at 9.53.21 AM
I applied the 121.6 cm radius for both a and b, and applied 99.2 to c.

And I don't know how to calculate how deep the meteor is into the ground, so I just assumed it was a sphere to make things easier.

I actually meant to put 31 px. Even with that mistake though, the lower end result wasn't changed by it all, so "16 px" was likely a typo on my part.

However, the High end was still affected, although it's still Large Building level (I just revised it).
 
If it only yields as Large Building or lower, surely it'd just be better to use a Nuke's low-end yield instead to scale them to the Nuclear Reactor Robot? The guide book where the Nuke statement comes from was written and released alongside the game so I'd say it's accurate. It's also held to a high regard by Nintendo which is quite rare for them, with them going as far as putting it up online when EarthBound was made available on the virtual console.
 
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