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Earthbound Downgrades and minor revisions

I can agree with your suggestion, then.

Which lowball should we go with? Town level or Multi City Block level?

I personally think Town level would be better, as that end comes from the bombs dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, which are almost always the first things that come to mind when we think of "nukes".

If we were to make a profile for Buzz-Buzz, would he be High 8-C?
 
I'd agree with Town Level for the Earthbound main cast, yeah. Buzz Buzz should probably be able to scale to them, too.
 
Yeah, Town level. The first nukes developed were around that level and most of the ones with lower yields were usually prototypes or purposefully developed to be weaker. Plus, the game was developed in Japan so the comparison to Little Boy and Fat man is most likely.
 
I don't think Buzz Buzz should scale to the chosen four. I mean, there's a reason that Buzz Buzz chose them, or else he would've fought Giygas himself. I think it's made pretty clear that Ness and the other three, towards the end of the game, have all surpassed Buzz Buzz. Or maybe it was just Ness, I don't know.

But I'm not comfortable placing Buzz Buzz on the same level as the chosen four.
 
It's quite clear Buzz Buzz is powerful, however, as he overcomes the Starman Jr practically single-handedly at that point and was considered the biggest threat to Giygas in the time he came from (albeit still not really effective). I dunno about scaling to the Chosen Four, but I don't think he's much farther from them. Maybe just go with the High 8-C from the meteor I guess, even if that feels like a lowball to me.
 
Well, he didn't chose the kids, they were already chosen by a profecy, he just came to Ness to tell him that he was the first chosen one.
 
Buzz Buzz was stronger than Starman Jr, who is more powerful than a lot of fodder I believe, so I don't think we can.
 
So could the likes of the Starmen, Octobots, and Shamblers scale to Buzz Buzz then? Assuming they're all superior to Starman Jr., and the higher ranking Starmen like Starman DX, Final Star Man, and Ghost of Star Man?
 
I think I'd be fine with that, yeah. I feel as if the end game Starmen should be able to scale to the Nuclear Reactor Robot feats, as Starman DX was shown as the boss of the area where they first appeared, and I believe Final and Ghost are more powerful than him.
 
The profile for the Starmen should be as follows:

Starman Jr.: At most High 8-C (Fought Buzz Buzz)

Starman: High 8-C (Superior to Starman Jr.)

Blue Starman (Mother), Starman Super (Earthbound): At least High 8-C (Superior to normal Starmen)

Starman Deluxe: 7-C (Traded blows with all of the chosen four at once as they were approaching their primes)

Final Starman, Ghost of Starman: 7-C (Should be comparable to the Nuclear Reactor Robots, can hold their own aganst the chosen four, Ghost of Starman can also learn PK Starstorm, Should also be comparable, if not superior to Starman Deluxe)
 
@ArbitraryNumbers You need to post your calculation as a blog post, so the related profile pages can link to it later.
 
Can you first remind me what the conclusions were in this thread?
 
We came to the conclusion that the main EB cast (and the characters that scale from them) are Town level rather than City. This is because they can survive an enemy that blows up comparable to a nuke and "nuke" is realistically closer to Town level than City.

The stuff about Buzz Buzz and the Starmen is for profiles that don't exist yet.
 
Okay. Feel free to change the statistics then, but remember to refer to this thread, so the staff do not undo your edits.
 
Done. Speaking of Earthbound characters, I think this is a good time to bring up two profiles that have been bugging me for a while.

1. Giygas/Giegue's profile puts him at Planet level during the events of EBB because he is "Capable of altering the entire earth with his presence alone, even while holding back". This isn't true. We only know that he warped "America", not the entire planet (and it's EBB's version of America which has a different geography and size than in the real world). Not only that but the warping mainly consisted of things like animating inanimate objects, mind manipulation, resurrecting the dead and other kinds of reality warping. So he didn't exactly warp the entire place like a quantifiable AP feat.

2. The other is Maria's profile which also puts her at Planet level but without any explanation. I assume it could be because her song had the power to repel Giegue but that shouldn't count because:

- As discussed, there is no evidence of Giegue being planet level.

- It only caused Giegue to retreat because of the emotional connection he had with the song. Which isn't an AP feat and is only exclusive to Giegue anyway.

It coulda also be because she created Magicant, but it's clearly smaller than a planet. Usually I'd also be sceptical of using that as a feat since Magicant is said to have been created "in her mind" and is a product of her consciousness, but since it's shown to be a tangible place that other characters can visit and interact with (enemies can hurt them, items bought there can still be used in the real world etc.), I'd say it definetly counts as a feat but certainly not planet level. If someone could work out it's size I'd be glad (I could provide pictures).
 
I agree with downgrading Giegue, nothing puts him close to Planet level. I also don't think Giygas should be Low 2-C, I don't recall him being infinitely superior to Ness, just that Ness couldn't hurt him due to his non-corporeal nature. I think just 3-A scaling off of Ness.

I have no idea how to rate Magicant. The game implies it's just some dream/illusion thing, yet at the same time you fight monsters who can actually hurt Ninten and friends, and you even pick up items that stay in the "real world", so I'd be willing to be accept it as an actual feat. Anyway, Magicant contains a village, a forest, a castle, an underground and an undefined, vast area outside of that. Maybe around 7-C or 7-B?
 
I think Low 2-C comes from Giygas being a legit threat to the universe, though.

I'd rate Magicant as 7-C for the sake of lowballing it, or keeping a variable 7-C to 7-B tier.

I'm sure being able to keep items from the world is just gameplay mechanics. But either way the way the game treats it tends to be pretty inconsistent, so I'd be fine with accepting it as a feat as long as we treat it as a possibility than an outright solid feat.
 
Magicant is far bigger than any of the towns in the game and even includes an underground area so yeah, I'd say 7-B is a good estimate. There is an official map of American (EBB's version of it) with a scale and we could use it to measure Magicant's size but idk if anyone wants to go through all the trouble of working that out.

As for Giygas, I'm not sure about the Low 2-C thing but I think it originates from something that wasn't explained well enough in the profile.

Also, after you defeat him, one of the newspapers says "Terrible sound recently heard. Possibly the sound of evil being destroyed beyond our time and space.", which could potentially put Paula's prayer at Low 2-C if we take it at face value but I'm no expert.
 
I think 7-C is a safer bet than 7-B, but since they're stronger than the main cast, I think "At least 7-C, likely far higher" works.

I don't think just being beyond time and space (in this case, beyond just affecting the future) warrants Low 2-C, but possibly some sort of Space-Time hax.
 
I think that LoudCloud seems to make sense.
 
Ness who was 3-A when fighting Giygas could not even fathom the kind of attacks Giygas was doing and no matter how much you hit him, you cannot actually hurt him, implying Ness needs an infinite amount more of strength to defeat Giygas. In addition, it's implied Paula's prayer draws from multiple dimensions across all of time and space and should be Low 2-C based on that, meaning a 3-A could not in any way defeat Giygas but something Low 2-C in power was able to. Thus, Giygas being Low 2-C makes sense to me.
 
Well, being stronger than a 3-A does not automatically mean being infinitely stronger, and drawing power from other realms does not automatically translate into universal time-space level power either.

What is the rationale for Ness being 3-A?
 
After Ness gained the 8 melodies and used them to channel and multiply his power, he was sent to Magicant to remove Giygas' influence over his mind (Giygas was described as the embodiment of evil itself).

Once he did that, his consciousness became one with the universe.
 
Okay. I suppose that seems reasonable.
 
To re-evaluate Giygas' tier we should talk to the users who gave him his current tier. I remember there being a lot of discussion about it.

As for Maria, I'd say 7-C seems too low but without much evidence (other than speculation) I'd say "Unknown, at least 7-C" is fair.

Also, altough it won't effect his current tier, it's interesting to note that when Ness creates Magicant (which is "in his mind", but similar to Maria's Magicant it's also tangiable as there are items you can buy there that can be used in real life) you can see celestial bodies in the background like planets and stars.

UPDATE: I looked through a bunch of EBB videos and I found this. When Maria's Magicant starts to dissapear you can clearly see mountains in the background . Would this put her at like 7-A?

2nd UPDATE: Maybe this has no effect on Giygas' tier but I found that in the Japanese version Buzz Buzz claims that in the future Giygas "has plunged everything in existence into the darkness of hell" which may indicate low 2-C.
 
If Ness's Magicant did indeed have planets and stars, that could imply that Pre-Melodies Ness was 4-B, right? If we're giving the same reasoning for this as we are for Maria, that is. I don't agree with him being 4-B cuz that's really ridiculous as an outlier, just pointing out the flaws in both sides.
 
So, should we place Giygas at 3-A or "At least 3-A"?
 
Again, being much stronger than a 3-A does not automatically mean Low 2-C.
 
Right. It could mean High 3-A at most. Which is infinite 3D power if Hop recalls correctly, which is likely, but would be wrong to say for certain it is.
 
No, I'm not implying pre-melodies Ness was that tier because he needed the soundstone and melodies to create it.
 
@Pikachu

I don't see any stars in Ness' Magicant at all so I don't know why you're bringing this up.
 
Well the mountains and horizon indicate Magicant is at least 5 kilometers en radius, so I think "Unknow. At least 7-B, likely far higher" might be appropriate. Anyway, Magicant's Smash Bros stage has stars, but for obvious reasons I don't think we should use that.

I believe in the context of everything "in existence" just refers to the physical universe. Paula's attack being beyond space and time likely just means it was capable of affecting the future from the past, not that it completely transcends space time.

I think Giygas should be "At least 3-A, likely higher, personally.
 
I'm with 3-A Giygas as well. Should be far superior to Ness, everything in the universe was under the influence of his power, and threatened to destroy it all as well.
 
I also agree with Darkanine. Feel free to adjust the profile accordingly.
 
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