Durability and Scaled AP

[XING06]

Right so right now we have Rachel's dogs at 9A, based on their battles with Mannequin and clones. We scale a lot of characters off this. However, while Bastard did in fact manage to ragdoll Mannequin, he was pretty much unharmed. He manages to pretty much instantly turn the tables and almost kills Bastard before Taylor interventes. Also, a few other feats which we use to scale such as the Taylor's grenade feat should only be within the 9B zone, same with the gas explosion which is mostly heat and fire less force.

Also, the text supports Rachel's dogs 9B physical status, with the comparison to Mockshow. "I noted Mock, but I couldn't see much of what she was doing. Her power, though, put her in the same general category as Rachel. She empowered minions. They even fit into the same general weight class as Rachel's dogs. The difference, though, was that they were inanimate. Loose, telekinetically animated servants, typically with the size, clout and general strategy of a grown rhino." The heaviest average rhino species is around 5100 lbs. so 2300 kg. They are superhuman in speed (34.3 m/s). That gives a charging energy of 1352963.5 J - base 9B. Bite energy is higher up to 9A as one dog demonstrated the ability to kill one of Mannequin's clones by focusing on biting down.

So basically, I'd want to drop down whoever scales from Rachel and Mannequin down to 9B, with Mannequin maintaining 9A durability and Rachel's dogs at 9A bite attack.

 

[Promestein]

Mannequin wasn't pretty much unharmed, he was messed up. He got back up because he's stubborn but he was injured and only got worse after that.

9-A makes more sense because Hatchet Face, who we have no indication is absurdly strong by Brute standards, has strength of a level that can kill Mannequins. Butcher XIV has like four different instances of stacking superhuman strength and should thus logically be stronger than Hatchet Face, and Rachel's dogs can take hits from her. Other Brutes shouldn't be a tier below Hatchet Face either, especially since the gap between 9-B and 9-A is huge.

 

[XING06]

Er no he wasn't he was pretty much unscathed by both Bastard and the explosion. Wildbow even states how he was "virtually unscathed". The only time the dogs manage to damage him was when they bit his clone.

Also, Hatchet Face is extremely tough. He can survive being crushed by a steamroller and thrown several blocks with his throat cut out. That's easily a 9A feat there (Dresden files had a similar feat). In comparison, Butcher XIV has several stacked brute powers, but those are degraded and possibly minor ones like Aegis and Weld. There's huge variations in brute levels so a tier difference is totally possible.

 

[XING06]

Here's the quote: "Bastard pounced on Mannequin, taking one of the villain's arms in his jaws. Clenching, he began whipping Mannequin around like a rag doll. Twice, Mannequin's lower body was bludgeoned against the nearby wall. Mannequin turned the tables in a second. Between one of Bastard's shakes and the next, the villain stopped flopping around. I realized he'd ejected the knives from his toes and staked them in Bastard's neck and snout for leverage. His one free hand dangled at his side." And this is after he gets blown up immediately afterwards "I looked for our opponent, and I saw Mannequin virtually unscathed, lying in the shallow water."

 

[Promestein]

I know he was fine after the explosion - it says this after the explosion but before Bastard ragdolls him - but Bastard still injured him a bit.

I'm aware. He is tough but that doesn't mean he's ridiculously stronger than other Brutes.

 

[XING06]

Wait where does it say he injures him a little? I reread the passage it doesn't mention that at all. Also, yes he is a lot stronger than most brutes. That's Victoria class putting him in the upper echelons of brute levels. In comparison, Aegis can be theoretically trapped in a dumpster (so he can't be more than 9B honestly he's probably generally 9C+). Mannequin and Weld physically are also around 9B ish. It takes around 60000 J (Black Panther MCU) to flip a car which both are capable of with some effort.

 

[Promestein]

That's... pretty ridiculous? Even like a 9-C character could get out of a dumpster.

I must be remembering wrong, then.

 

[XING06]

Yeah no one of Lisa's conversations with Taylor involve trapping him in one. I'll see if can find it. So yeah Brutes can go from 9C+ to High 8-C. Anyway yeah that's why I don't think they should have 9A durability not much supports it and a lot is against it.

 

[XING06]

"Trap him in a dumpster and throw it in the river, you can get a few minutes of relief." Here it is. Looks like he can break out but it takes him a while to do so and then get back into the fight.

 

[Promestein]

Where'd you get Hatchet Face >> other Brutes strength-wise, anyways? There's nothing that indicates as such. Sure, he's extra tough.

That doesn't mean it magically makes sense. It's not even the dumpster that's the issue there so much as it is the river.

 

[XING06]

Umm the fact that he can survive that sort of impact generally means he can dish out that sort of damage, considering he has both enhanced toughness and strength.

Yeah you're right about Aegis though, the quote does seem to imply that it's the water that would make him take a while to get back into the fight. But still anyway still most brutes are only 9B-ish. See what I said about Mannequin and Weld above with their car throwing/flipping feats. Aegis is still below that, making him 9C+ (based on what a human's actual physical limits are) or low 9B.

Anyway the point is that Bastard didn't manage to damage Mannequin at all with physical impacts and neither did the explosion, so his shotgun's 9A rating and scaling from it is unjustified. Even assuming he's weaker than his durability (not likely generally people have the same AP and durability), using Hatchet Face to justify still isn't accurate as Weld who is 9B (seeing as it took actual effort to flip/throw a car) can also kill Mannequin in a single hit.

 

[Promestein]

Not really, no. Worm has lots of characters who are much tougher than what they can dish out. Mannequin, Victoria, Alexandria, Crawler, the Endbringers, etcetera.

I mean, Weld is like explicitly stated to be powerful enough that a single hit from him would cripple Mannequin. That'd be 9-A. And the second gas explosion did actually screw Mannequin over. Aegis also put up a fight against the dogs.

 

[XING06]

Yeah I will admit to Worm having many exceptions to the rule, but those are mainly through hax abilities, not sheer durability/strength upgrades like with Hatchet Face. Mannequin is also different b/c he's got armor; armor is wholly seperate from powered organic base durability. That's like a regular person wearing a bomb suit.

I also did say that Weld is powerful enough to cripple Mannequin in a single hit but that doesn't mean he's 9A (It's like how a baseball bat and a fist are both 9C but one is pretty much instantly lethal compared to the other. A 6000 lbf difference is a lot and more than capable of being instantly lethal but they're still within the same AP class. In boxing even a mere 100 lbf difference is nearly unsurmountable). Like you said the 9B gap is huge, and his supporting feats show he's only around 9B. Also, Aegis didn't put up much of a fight against the dogs he got used as a chew toy, until Vista helped him get the drop on Brutus.

And the second gas explosion did screw Mannequin over, but not in terms of damage. He was stunned and knocked over with slight damage which allowed Bastard to bite him, which cracks his armor. "Burnscar gave Mannequin a hand in getting to his feet. Cracks marred his lower body, and his left arm was a mess of cracked ceramic and pale gray organic pulp". The description shows that it's really only where Bastard bit that's heavily damaged.

 

[XING06]

Here's Aegis being ragdolled " When she stopped, though, she still had Aegis, one of his arms and half his torso clasped between her teeth. She whipped him around like a dog might shake a toy. " He does fight back but it's not effective cuz Angelica's got him tight in a hold and he can't overpower the dogs.

 

[Promestein]

"I also did say that Weld is powerful enough to cripple Mannequin in a single hit but that doesn't mean he's 9A"

That's... kinda how scaling works...?

 

[XING06]

No? Again a sufficient AP gap doesn't require a whole tier difference, especially the 9B tier and when Mannequin can still fight against Weld pretty decently. It's the difference between a grenade and a demolition block of C4. One is survivable against a bomb suit the other isn't but both are within the 9B category.

 

[Promestein]

Mannequin can fight against Weld because he's faster and dodged all of his attacks; he didn't injure him at all either. If Weld got a single hit in, Mannequin would've been crippled. That's definitely 9-A.

 

[XING06]

Hmm...Ok fair enough. I've reread that part and now I think you're probably right. He focuses on pinning him Weld down by attacking his teammates and trying to crush him with cars. Then he surprise attacks him when he's not ready. So yeah I can see the scaling working I guess especially b/c the exact wording was "leave Mannequin a wreck" so basically one-shot killing him not just crippling (which would be in the same tier).

OK then now instead I think we can upgrade Mannequin's physical attacks then. When he has 4 arms and enhances his body with gas, it allows him to fling cars at high speed and actually does allow him to hit Weld directly with some effect so I think we can add that in as 9A.

I still think that Rachel's dogs should only be At least 9B though b/c it isn't until they use their bite attack that they manage to actually damage Mannequin. Bastard's slam attacks do pretty much nothing and Lucy gets one shotted by his internal shotgun. The charge calc supports this as does the fact that Aegis can survive getting ragdolled by them when he's 9B at best.

 

[Promestein]

Lucy takes two shots but I see your point and I'm fine with downgrading most of the 9-A characters to 9-B.

I'd say Mannequin should be 9-B, higher with more arms / shotgun.

This is probably more consistent, given that Jack manages to cut through spider silk with his claymore.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I agree with Promestein.

 

[XING06]

OK sounds good. Should his shotgun/arms be at 9A or just higher? He does manage to blow back Weld with a charged 4 arm attack.

 

[Promestein]

I'd be more comfortable with 9-B, higher with shotgun/arms. He wasn't really hurting Weld.

 

[XING06]

OK yeah sure.