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Dungeon & Dragons, Revision 2.0

Udlmaster

Udlmaster

They/Them
6,865
2,058
So far what we got is:

Luminous Being:

Low Complex Multiverse level (Exists in a realm beyond the entirety of both the Forgotten Realms' infinite multiverse and the realms which encompass it and are outside of it, dwarfing entities like Ao, the Overgod of Realmspace, who transcends all of creation. Tasked with the creation and destruction of universes and realities both big and small, and is utterly beyond all rules and associations that arise from within the game's universe. Most commonly thought and accepted to be a stand-in for the DM of a Dungeons and Dragons game, representing the reader of a Forgotten Realms setting.), possibly Outerverse level (Transcendent over the Mystaraian Multiverse which has an infinite amount geometric dimensions. Transcendent over the Far Realm which itself transcends the D&D multiverse )


Possibly 5-D gods:

And should the Gods be scaled to the Mystaraian Multiverse.
 
Lumi scaling is fine since he's master of all. Same with Immortals and The Old Ones as they exist in that multiverse and deal with its dimensions.

On the other hand the normal D&D pantheons/multiverses are vastly different in terms of dimensional structure and layout. Even scaling the LOP and Ao to Mystara is iffy imo.
 
I think, as a Overdeity, they should, logically, be above the Immortals, other Gods, as Overdeities are vastly above the Gods in every sense, across the Multiverses:

Because there has never been an instance in over 20 years where someone has beat a Overdeity in terms of power, Vecna came close but that was with the vulnerability of Sigil and not the Lady herself.

With basic scaling, with the Lady being Low 1-C in her true form, her Avatar would be High 2-A, as it is 1/infinith of her true strength, with this, Greater God Vecna was able to resist her powers, it took everything he had, but he did it, this would then line up with the Immortals, as they too would be High 2-A as they exist in the 5th dimension, but the Immortals can grow stronger without the limiter.

Additionally, since this is composite, this would be the case, as we take the clearest parts.

Additionally, the Gods draw from a Low 1-C power source, that being Toril, who Ao has absolute control over and could very well be, as he cannot affect things that wasn't made by that font of energy.
 
> I think, as a Overdeity, they should, logically, be above the Immortals, other Gods, as Overdeities are vastly above the Gods in every sense, across the Multiverses:

I honestly don't know if they're above Immortals. Because all Immortals are theoretically 1-B or High 1-B if it wasn't for the Old Ones forcing them to evolve to a higher level

> Overdeity in terms of power, Vecna came close but that was with the vulnerability of Sigil and not the Lady herself.

The Lady of Pain is not an Overdeity. She is an ancient super snake in the same vein as the Serpent. Aka part of the Ancient Brethren.

> er Avatar would be High 2-A, as it is 1/infinith of her true strength

I don't think that's how scaling would work without a proper statement confirming it.

> Additionally, since this is composite, this would be the case, as we take the clearest parts.

While clear, Mystara's universe structure is widely different from every other edition. 4e has more in common with 2e, 3e, and 5e than Mystara. I don't think cross scaling is a good idea.

> Additionally, the Gods draw from a Low 1-C power source, that being Toril

The FR gods maybe. Not the Gods in general. Plus even the Immortals draw from the 5th dimension, not the 6th. Which would only be High 2-A with that line of thinking
 
> I think we should drop the possibly and just make Lumi 1-A

Its better to be safe than sorry imo. In case the Immortals are wrong (probably aren't) a "At least 1-C, likely 1-A" covers all the bases.
 
I agree with Qaw on this one; Luminous Being being At least 1-C and likely 1-A is as accurate as possible and the best representation based on what we have. Better to lowball realistically than wank outright, imho.
 
From what I've come across, the Multiverse in D&D is just that, 1 Multiverse, this is comfirmed in the Tomb of Annihilation, quote:

"Acererak is a powerful lich known and feared throughout the multiverse." - Tomb of Annihilation page 7.

As shown here, it only says there's 1 Multiverse with the use of the word: "The Multiverse"

Again from the Wizards of the Coast website:

"When adventurers reach higher levels, their path extends to other dimensions of reality: the planes of existence that form the multiverse."

Again, the use of "The Multiverse" it's obvious at this point, all of these take place within the same Multiverse, and this is further clairified with Tharizdun, as it's highly likely that each Universe contains it's own Abyss:

"He was trapped in another universe that had been completely subsumed by its own version of The Abyss, known only as Voidharrow."

Again, notice "Universe" and not another "Multiverse".

Even in the Mystara "GM's guide to Immortals":

"Just as the five Spheres govern the multiverse, five dimensions govern each plane of existence. Each dimension is a way of measuring physical size or distance. Each dimension is a real direction perpendicular to every other. Time, often mistakenly called the fourth dimension, is not a direction, but one of the Spheres."

Again, it's always singular, we shouldn't treat the Multiverse as separate, and most of all with the wording that has yet to change from "Multiverse" to "Multiverses".
 
The Mystaraian description of the multiverse is unique though. No other series has even mentions spacial dimensions. But even if all share a similar dimensional structure, I don't see why it would scale to anyone. Immortals and the Old Ones are notably different from Gods in the same vein as the LOP or Far Realm monsters.

If there's nothing supporting Gods being 4-5th dimensional I don't see why they would scale up.
 
Well, because some are described in creating the Multiverse, IO is said to create the Multiverse, Ao is said to have created the Multiverse, the one you said was said to have created the Multiverse, the Lady of Pain reset the Multiverse by merely talking and is able to destroy it in her true form.
 
All of this is important because if that is true, then they would be comparable to the Old Ones, but like I am implying, these people are very special cases, that's why I am bringing it up for them.
 
Io is said to have created the multiverse according to Draconic myths, but there's other myths that contradict that story. Ao also didn't create the multiverse, just the Prime Material word of the Forgotten Realms universe. LOP however is a more legitimate example, but even then why couldn't she just've altered the 5 dimensions where everyone lives in rather than all of them.

Of them all I don't think any of them are comparable to the Old Ones, who would either be High 1-B or or 1-A.

EDIT: Should mention an important thing as well. None of the gods existed until after the multiverse was created as established in 3-5e. So Io couldn't have done anything besides make some planes.
 
Well, the obvious reason in why there are multiple examples is due to the fact D&D can be changed on a whim, it's not concrete, hardly any of it is, because sessions and custom lore exist within D&D, it even starts out most of the GM guides in saying everything is subject and everything in the book is just there to help and isn't mandatory.

Additionally, they wouldn't put it in the Books if it wasn't Psuedo-True (It can and cannot be true due to Homebrew and custom lore.), and of course there's contradictions, that's firstly what happens with 30-40 years of story, and again, it's all to do with the story being told.

Additionally, in Mystara, it's said that Immortals and Mortals lose their magic in the Outer Planes, but the LoP has shown resistance to this, totally, either resistance to Power Null or it's that she's vastly Above the Immortals restricted forms and that she in her restricted form is above the 5-D Immortals.

Again, with Scaling, if the Lady of Pain in her Restricted form Altered the Multiverse from 2e to 3e, Vecna should scale in a similar way, being able to resist a Higher Dimensional being means the two must be comparable, I.E At least High 2-A.

Also, the reason I bring up Vecna specifically is because he's a special case for a Greater Deity, after the Greater Deity of Portals went to control Sigil, he was killed with a thought, clearly showing a Dimensional difference to say the least.

The Reason Ao scales is because that source of Energy Vecna is also using is a Source of Power which Ao controls absolutely.

Again, conflicting stories are there because the story isn't supposed to be used the way we're trying to use it.
 
Also, Ao is stated as well to have created the Multiverse, except this time, multiple times, and the Immortals where awed by the Multiverse:

"Immortals have imagined much of the following, and have in fact deduced most of the truth, but have never found real evidence to support their theories. They remain uneasy, intellectually capable but unable to full y accept their own deductions. Coming from a place now lost in the mists of forgotten time and memory, the first Immortals found the multiverse; they did not create it. They found it withou t order, and without purpose, so they made the achievement of these things their highest goal. The many planes of existence are still being explored by the Immortals. The Outer Planes seem to be innumerable. With each passing millenium, the Immortals grow ever more awed by the apparently infinit e size and variety of this vast creation"

They themselves where impressed and didn't fully understand the Multiverse, which Ao created.

This again is another indicator that Ao is above the Immortals.

And what do the Immortals call the thing that created the Multiverse? The Old ones:

"Someone must have been here before, they reason. Someone or some group, or perhaps some thing, made all of this. The Immortals call them the Old Ones—beings to whom even the power of the Immortals is but a drop in an ocean."

 
> Additionally, they wouldn't put it in the Books if it wasn't Psuedo-True (It can and cannot be true due to Homebrew and custom lore.),

The same passage where the Io quote comes from acknowledges that it may just be the Dragons overhyping their racial god. In the same book there's other gods attrubuted with creating the multiverse as well

> Additionally, in Mystara, it's said that Immortals and Mortals lose their magic in the Outer Planes,

That's because in Mystara the Outer Planes have 3-4 dimensions. Mortals get magic by drawing from the fourth dimension and Immortals from the fifth. So if the plane has no higher dimension they can't channel anything. Which again is vastly different from how D&D magic works in every other campaign setting. In fact that part of the dimensions were dropped by the time of Wraith of the Immortals

> The Reason Ao scales is because that source of Energy Vecna is also using is a Source of Power which Ao controls absolutely.

What? Vecna is completely out of Ao's control. His power comes from the serpant giving him a special ritual and absorbing the Demigod Iuz. Neither are part of the FR setting

> Also, Ao is stated as well to have created the Multiverse

No, he was said to have created the Forgotten Realms universe. He didn't make Greyhawk, Krynn, Mystara, Dark Sun, Ebberon, or the realms of the historical gods (Greeks, Celtics, Norse, Egyptian, Indian, etc). Ao only has power over his sphere, which is the FR world, the godly aspects in that world, and the sections of the outer places connected to it.
 
1.) I've said why there's multiple accounts already, don't ignore that very specific point.

2.) Fair enough

3.) "Another of his functions was to decide which interloper deities were allowed in the sphere of Abeir-Toril and which mortals could be raised to godhood. If Ao didn't allow it, a being could not ascend to divinity, and an interloper deity could not enter the sphere or affect it in any way, regardless of how powerful it was."

Vecna ascended, meaning he was connected to this source of energy in which Ao Controls, so yes, Ao could control Vecna, additionally, as far as we know, the Serpent gave Vecna specific defences against the LoP, he was empowered prior to this as well, as he was his patron (Even though he wasn't a Warlock :Thinking:)

4.) Same Multiverse FRA
 
1) And like I said, the book itself contradicts Io being the creator of the multiverse. Or at the very least cast doubt on the Dragon Sage's validity

3) You know you're quote explicitly says "in the sphere of Abeir-Toril" right? Ao couldn't do anything to stop the Far Realm, Vecna, or Orcus as all of those beings are not in the Forgotten Realms crystal sphere

4) FRA? And while its the same multiverse Ao only controls a small section of it.
 
1.) Yes, because the Book isn't built to be factual or to give lore, it's a guide for players to use, of course it's going to say Multiple gods Created the Multiverse, that's because it's saying: "You can choose that all and or none of these are real."

3.) I know, I quoted it, and if he didn't ascend in that way, which way did he, remember, all of this is composite, it's the most likely option.

4.) FRA means "For reasons above", while he can only control a section, it's still stated he created it.
 
1) So then you can't use Io to say he created the multiverse. Which is also backed up by various 3e and 4e stuff saying Gods didn't exist until after the universe was a thing. Abeloths remember a time when there were no gods for example

3) Huh? Even under a composite Ao wouldn't have any control over Vecna, Orcus, or the Far Realms. Every single version of the game notes the sphere limitation present on Ao.

4) Yes, but he didn't create the outer planes. Just the FR material plane. Even in 3e and 4e where it was implied that he created the entire FR cosmology, those editions has explicit separations. . In 2e and 5e he only controlled the FR sphere and the sections of the outer planes connected to it

Ao cannot scale to Vecna's Greater God feats. Its just established lore that's consistent in every edition.
 
Not really, Gods draw their power from a High 2-A source Ao, and Ao can literally take their power away, destroy them and recreate them, to my knowledge they don't have resistance against it.
 
@Azathoth In 3e Gods of higher divine rank could nullify abilities of lower ranking Gods (mostly their precog and senses iirc). I also think it sorta worked like that in 1e. So it seems like a very specific type of power nullification that's blocked by a similarly specific type of defense.

> Not really, Gods draw their power from a High 2-A source Ao

In FR they don't draw power from Ao. He gives them divine ranks but those power themselves.
 
I meant they draw their power "through" Ao, or at least, a Source he controls absolutely.
 
I meant, dispell magic and other attempts to take away the power doesen't work. And yes the power is from Ao so obviously ao can take it away.
 
You can't dispel Divine Ranks because it isn't a spell or magical effect. It's like how you can't dispel a Dragon or a Beholder. Gods do have damage reduction stuff in 3e, but not in 1e, 2e, 4e, or 5e to my memory. Also you can bypass that damage reduction with magic and magic weapons.
 
Qawsedf234 said:
Gods do have damage reduction stuff in 3e, but not in 1e, 2e, 4e, or 5e to my memory. Also you can bypass that damage reduction with magic and magic weapons.
Click to expand...
Not entirely related to the overall conversation, but I figured I'd mention that gods (or, more accurately, a god) have high levels of damage reduction/resistance in 5e. Tiamat is, to my knowledge, the only true god who currently has stats for 5e, which were introduced for when she physically manifests during the climax of The Rise of Tiamat. She is completely immune to acid, cold, fire, lightning, poison, and all mundane damage from sources that are not magical. Spells 6th level and below don't affect her in any way, and she resists all spells that are 7th level or above.

I assume this is what you were referring to.
 
I meant damage reduction as in: 38/+4, 5/-, or "takes half damage automatically". Spell Resistance and the rest are technically different mechanics iirc.
 
Yeah, 5e doesn't really use that type of damage reduction, any more.

The exception is "automatically take half damage", which is just now labelled as "Damage Resistances".

Tiamat has no damage resistances because all of her would-be resistances are just "Damage Immunities" (basically just the upscaled version), so "automatically takes no damage".
 
And to my understanding none of them really work on magic. Or at least the level of spells a God would use against another God.
 
They do. Just any spell cast below level 7.

Also, a theoretical level 9 spell that does 50d10 + 100 lightning damage (for example) still has no effect on Tiamat because the damage type is lightning, even though the spell itself could go through.

This is entirely unrelated to gods having resistance to all other gods' powers. I'm just explaining how a 5e game mechanic works.
 
I think they were talking about Negative levels, which could be argued to be Power Null and a lot of the Gods are totally immune to Negative levels or having their levels lowered, but if I remember correctly, that was already added under "Status Reduction"
 
"Going from this its just varying degrees of elemental immunity."

5e damage immunity is literally just damage reduction that nullifies all damage instead of just half. Immunity is a form of damage reduction that reduces damage to a value of 0. This is just to explain that the one god we have actually been given stats for in 5e does have a form of damage reduction damage reduction.

"But the original point of them being immune to power nullifcation isn't backed up anywhere besides general spell resistence."

Yes, agreed. Though I wouldn't doubt that specific gods have probably showcased it at one point, or another. Of course, things we're unaware of aren't what we base profiles off of. This is just to say that such an instance might exist.
 
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