Dragonball specific powers>hax symposium attempt 2

[Theglassman12]

No your premise was Shenron cannot affect those stronger than the creator of the dragon balls, that does not prove resistance to reality warping, it’s a weakness to the dragon ball, and their intention being against the wish wouldn’t make sense especially for Vegeta when he wanted to attack Frieza back when Namek was exploding and he got warped to earth anyways.

So you’re not going to address the fact I brought in numerous anti feats for them resisting hax just because they’re stronger. If you aren’t on top of giving an actual debunk to my points you do realize it shoots your entire premise in the foot right? Meaning no one scales to resistances via strength. And again this falls back to the CRT we had some time ago that specifically states strength alone cannot grant resistance without proof.

You just proved he increased his potency, making Goku’s resistance to his abilities moot by making his better, so you shot your argument in the foot by admitting his potency got better by extending the timeframe.

You do realize saying “duh” doesn’t disprove my point right? If he feels heavier then he’s affected by the gravity, simple as that.

because he can control his timeskip far more efficiently to do his pocket dimension phasing and other things. Like when he killed his first target in stopped time just to terrify the shit out of him, and wasn’t remotely surprised he wasn’t frozen. As opposed to Goku who he tries to timeskip but resists it and Hit was taken aback by the fact he wasn’t affected. Or Jiren being able to resist the timeskip too.

 

[Vietthai96]

I'm agree with this case by case as this fall under universal energy system as hax resistance heavily depend on energy.

And people should stop taking about time skip, the reason for the problem you guys are facing now is because we treat Hit time-skip as time stop, while it actually different.

 

[Urshani]

Why would I trust or care about if random people on discord think I'm using a fallacy incorrectly? Unless they give substantiation I can't refute, I could care less about what they say.

they are more trustworthy than 99% of the people on this site.

Which is why the OP has listed certain specific hax, and not all hax within dragon ball.

Well sorry for miswording this, but that's what I was supporting the entire time. I apologize for the misunderstanding.

Now end this. We're not continuing this anymore. If you try to start it again I'll ignore you- so don't do it.

 

[Tarang123]

Goku with just a stat increase was able to negate the time skip. Which one of the effects of the time skip is to freeze people in place. Furthermore, Jiren surpassed time with raw power and negated Hit's time abilities.

Issue with this one is that even Jiren was momentarily frozen by Hit's time freeze, so I disagree with this.

On Beerus' page it's possibly for Toonforce because it could've been done with power. However we don't know that first off. Secondly if the power>hax thing gets accepted. Then that shouldn't matter. So just give him a full resistance.

The power > hax thing isn't always how it works in DB, tho. There are plenty of anti-feats for that like Ginyu, Guldo, etc.

Both of these are logically Resisted via power in general. Characters training with gravity far higher times stronger than Earth's one, adapting to it through sheer power.

This one also doesn't work. You need time to get used to higher gravity or more weight upon your body. Even people today go through this. We wouldn't get resistance to gravity manip. They don't adapt through sheer power, they're strong enough that they can withstand the effect it has on their bodies. They still need to adapt, tho.

 

[Tarang123]

This Power>Hax thing got already accepted recently to be case by case, if there is explicit context or statement in which the Hax is resisted by power.

Yes, but there are more anti-feats than actual feats for this. We can't just ignore every anti-feat for the sake of wank

 

[Tarang123]

I think this thread is based on some kind of notion that hax can always be trumped by power, when that isn't true. 99% of DB characters have hax due to their ki. Obviously, having more ki would directly go against the hax, and even then it's not foolproof. We have characters that are capable of affecting much MUCH stronger characters with hax like Chiaotzu (probably spelled that wrong) on Goku and Hit against Jiren. As for the actual feats, I'm a little confused as to why they'd go to everyone. Just give them to the characters that have actually shown the resistance instead on flimsy logic. As much as I want more resistances for DB, this isn't the way to go, so this is a hard no for me

 

[Urshani]

I think this thread is based on some kind of notion that hax can always be trumped by power, when that isn't true. 99% of DB characters have hax due to their ki. Obviously, having more ki would directly go against the hax, and even then it's not foolproof. We have characters that are capable of affecting much MUCH stronger characters with hax like Chiaotzu (probably spelled that wrong) on Goku and Hit against Jiren. As for the actual feats, I'm a little confused as to why they'd go to everyone. Just give them to the characters that have actually shown the resistance instead on flimsy logic. As much as I want more resistances for DB, this isn't the way to go, so this is a hard no for me

I disagree with you disagreeing.

 

[ArmBill]

No your premise was Shenron cannot affect those stronger than the creator of the dragon balls, that does not prove resistance to reality warping, it’s a weakness to the dragon ball, and their intention being against the wish wouldn’t make sense especially for Vegeta when he wanted to attack Frieza back when Namek was exploding and he got warped to earth anyways.

However it does begets this notion. Since it shown and stated shenron can't affect above that because they're stronger than him. The causal reason is someones power. Also you point with Vegeta is wrong. While he was dying he wanted Goku to beat frieza and avenge them. So no reason to be left on the planet, even after he's revived he doesn't seem concerned.

So you’re not going to address the fact I brought in numerous anti feats for them resisting hax just because they’re stronger. If you aren’t on top of giving an actual debunk to my points you do realize it shoots your entire premise in the foot right? Meaning no one scales to resistances via strength. And again this falls back to the CRT we had some time ago that specifically states strength alone cannot grant resistance without proof.

There's are no viable "anti feats" that you brought up. All the shenron ones are shown to have viable interest to let it happened, even your example I disproved. The others as well in my list are propagated by their power, being very consistent. The ones that are I'm not even talking about. Yeah theres a plethora of "proof" they state verbatim it's via power, etc.

You just proved he increased his potency, making Goku’s resistance to his abilities moot by making his better, so you shot your argument in the foot by admitting his potency got better by extending the timeframe.

No cause that resistance is still a factor that existed. Why would it not apply??? Just because Hit improves his ability doesn't make the resistance for Goku void especially because it's explicitly stated their power/ki supplies these resistances.

You do realize saying “duh” doesn’t disprove my point right? If he feels heavier then he’s affected by the gravity, simple as that.

You can be affected on different levels though. This applies to abilities all the time. Since Gohan was able to move around fine. The greater gravity didn't have significant effect like characters earlier in the series.

because he can control his timeskip far more efficiently to do his pocket dimension phasing and other things. Like when he killed his first target in stopped time just to terrify the shit out of him, and wasn’t remotely surprised he wasn’t frozen. As opposed to Goku who he tries to timeskip but resists it and Hit was taken aback by the fact he wasn’t affected. Or Jiren being able to resist the timeskip too.

But delinate where it's ever stated, that surpriseness has a factor. Literally has no reasoning, you apply jiren to an accepted "surprised meter", but hit uses the same time skip version on dyspo. No reasons to assume they have different effects from a few minutes earlier on in the tournament as it's exactly the same. So its shows my edification as correct.

Issue with this one is that even Jiren was momentarily frozen by Hit's time freeze, so I disagree with this.

But he still broke out of it, by definition, resisting the effects. "withstand the action or effect of". Plus hit has been constantly improving the time skip, as an ability. Goku not being affected, but then Hit progressing his ability to the point of overcoming that resistance to the same effect.

The power > hax thing isn't always how it works in DB, tho. There are plenty of anti-feats for that like Ginyu, Guldo, etc.

I think this thread is based on some kind of notion that hax can always be trumped by power, when that isn't true. 99% of DB characters have hax due to their ki. Obviously, having more ki would directly go against the hax, and even then it's not foolproof. We have characters that are capable of affecting much MUCH stronger characters with hax like Chiaotzu (probably spelled that wrong) on Goku and Hit against Jiren. As for the actual feats, I'm a little confused as to why they'd go to everyone. Just give them to the characters that have actually shown the resistance instead on flimsy logic. As much as I want more resistances for DB, this isn't the way to go, so this is a hard no for me

I never stated I wanted all haxs to be resisted, that why I only listed the ones shown with power, they show this heavily mentioning the word Ad nauseum, or words that mean the same. furthermore the energy is a analogous system. I only wrote specific ones for that reason. With your Telekinesis example it's still shown stronger characters resisting. As once chiaotzu said he powers don't work, it was him flexing his strength. Even piccolo alluding to his power in the same frame. Plus I don't mind if they start on and above the person first shown.

This one also doesn't work. You need time to get used to higher gravity or more weight upon your body. Even people today go through this. We wouldn't get resistance to gravity manip. They don't adapt through sheer power, they're strong enough that they can withstand the effect it has on their bodies. They still need to adapt, tho.

If "they're strong enough that they can withstand the effect" that would be analogous to what I'm saying. Their power is their energy/ki supplying their overall stats.

 

[ArmBill]

I'm agree with this case by case as this fall under universal energy system as hax resistance heavily depend on energy.

And people should stop taking about time skip, the reason for the problem you guys are facing now is because we treat Hit time-skip as time stop, while it actually different.

I concur it works as skipping. But technically while hes skipping everything would be frozen in perspective anyways, so it still applies.

 

[Vietthai96]

I concur it works as skipping. But technically while hes skipping everything would be frozen in perspective anyways, so it still applies.

Well he skip time into future so in his perspective other is stop in one place

 

[Theglassman12]

and the next time we see him alive he beelines straight to frieza to try and get a shot at him only to be warped away so your point doesn't work here.

Yes there is, you just saying "there is none" isn't gonna fly here dude, you're making a very bold claim that characters in this series scale from resistances just from power alone, not only do you not prove this whatsoever with any scans that's consistent across the board that characters can resist abilities from weaker foes because power, but your argument flies in the face of the requirement we have that qualifies as resistances in this site.

Where did I remotely say he doesn't resist the ability? I said he has a limited resistance at best. Pay attention to what I'm saying and stop strawmanning me.

Again you're ignoring how many characters actually adapt to the gravity, by training. Even King Kai told Goku he needed to get used to the gravity even with his weighted clothing by constant training in the gear.

If hit's trying to timeskip a character, almost all the times the character being affected by it would be affected, and he wouldn't bat an eye. However this does not happen in his fight with Dyspo, Dyspo's surprised by what's happening and Hit's able to toy with him easily, meaning Hit's able to affect him with Timeskip, simple as that. Goku and Jiren are the only characters onscreen that have showings of resisting the timeskip and affecting hit.

 

[Tarang123]

But he still broke out of it, by definition, resisting the effects. "withstand the action or effect of". Plus hit has been constantly improving the time skip, as an ability. Goku not being affected, but then Hit progressing his ability to the point of overcoming that resistance to the same effect.

doesn't matter. It still debunks the fanfiction that a stronger character can always overcome a weaker character's hax with raw power. If a character, who's as strong as Jiren is, still gets frozen by someone like Hit despite the power difference, then yeah the theory falls apart.

I never stated I wanted all haxs to be resisted, that why I only listed the ones shown with power, they show this heavily mentioning the word Ad nauseum, or words that mean the same. furthermore the energy is a analogous system. I only wrote specific ones for that reason. With your Telekinesis example it's still shown stronger characters resisting. As once chiaotzu said he powers don't work, it was him flexing his strength. Even piccolo alluding to his power in the same frame. Plus I don't mind if they start on and above the person first shown.

That doesn't matter, to give this to all users of ki would just be absolutely ridiculous. As I said, we can still go by the fact that Chiaotzu was able to temporarily restrain a 3A character despite he himself capping at tier 5 or so. So that still doesn't work.

If "they're strong enough that they can withstand the effect" that would be analogous to what I'm saying. Their power is their energy/ki supplying their overall stats.

My point was that it's like putting weights on your back. Obviously, our bodies are able to withstanding putting a few weights on out backs, we don't get a resistance for that. The same applies to them.

 

[ArmBill]

and the next time we see him alive he beelines straight to frieza to try and get a shot at him only to be warped away so your point doesn't work here.

Can you link that. Where did he do that after being revived?

Yes there is, you just saying "there is none" isn't gonna fly here dude, you're making a very bold claim that characters in this series scale from resistances just from power alone, not only do you not prove this whatsoever with any scans that's consistent across the board that characters can resist abilities from weaker foes because power, but your argument flies in the face of the requirement we have that qualifies as resistances in this site.

You're saying I didn't prove it. But by definition they are resisting it, since they withstanding it. They cite via power, the abilities listed are shown as consistent. Just because they increase in potency doesn't indicate others losing a resistance or some strange outcome, you would need to prove it. I already showed with semantics it that it propagate my edification, plus you're using examples that I'm not even talking about like ginyu.

Where did I remotely say he doesn't resist the ability? I said he has a limited resistance at best. Pay attention to what I'm saying and stop strawmanning me.

That's what it look like you meant. You're using weird factors to try and void these showing. That don't even connect for one, like the subjective surprised factor. Nothing indicates its limited in anyway, as he negated a regular effect of time stop.

Again you're ignoring how many characters actually adapt to the gravity, by training. Even King Kai told Goku he needed to get used to the gravity even with his weighted clothing by constant training in the gear.

People do adapt but as gohan showed he was able to walk around in the hyperbolic time chamber without being almosted launched in the floor or more visible struggle like others . That was the first time of him going in there too. He was already higher on the chain of that.

If hit's trying to timeskip a character, almost all the times the character being affected by it would be affected, and he wouldn't bat an eye. However this does not happen in his fight with Dyspo, Dyspo's surprised by what's happening and Hit's able to toy with him easily, meaning Hit's able to affect him with Timeskip, simple as that. Goku and Jiren are the only characters onscreen that have showings of resisting the timeskip and affecting hit.

You're still not proving he was just making it work for Dyspo. There was no difference between the time stop effect of Dyspo and Jiren they were showed the same. Why would one be on and the other not? I need link for "surprise" theory.

doesn't matter. It still debunks the fanfiction that a stronger character can always overcome a weaker character's hax with raw power. If a character, who's as strong as Jiren is, still gets frozen by someone like Hit despite the power difference, then yeah the theory falls apart.

It doesn't though. It just means Hit made a more potent time ability, the guy know for improving his abilities. Plus in that episode they strictly say Jirens power over came Hit's ability. Debunking your notion that's it not power>hax.

That doesn't matter, to give this to all users of ki would just be absolutely ridiculous. As I said, we can still go by the fact that Chiaotzu was able to temporarily restrain a 3A character despite he himself capping at tier 5 or so. So that still doesn't work.

Goku is well know for holding back. Right after he was blind by a solar flare, he was off guard, not even paying attention to anyone.

My point was that it's like putting weights on your back. Obviously, our bodies are able to withstanding putting a few weights on out backs, we don't get a resistance for that. The same applies to them.

You are technically resisting it, I showed the definition multiple times. Anything you withstand would count as that. But if people just want to apply these for lifting strength, it's not that big of a deal.

 

[Seventy96]

How strong excactly are hax resistances in db? Can they resist Marvel/DC heralds or Gods transmutation? Can they resist Hades (Saint Seiya) ee? Can they resist Universal time stop/skip?

 

[Seventy96]

Can weaker character transmutate DB character if his hax is stronger than DB character resistance?

 

[Stefano4444]

How strong excactly are hax resistances in db? Can they resist Marvel/DC heralds or Gods transmutation? Can they resist Hades (Saint Seiya) ee? Can they resist Universal time stop/skip?

Universal time skip for sure no (they shouldn't be able to resist Dio Brando's level of time stop), unless Hit's Time Skip was show to be on that scale too.

Hades's haxes most likely not, especially when most of his haxes are things that DB characters never show to resist (like Matter Manipulation on a Macro-Quantum level).

Marvel/DC heralds may be a case by case, depend by how much powerful a Marvel/DC character's hax trully is.

 

[Stefano4444]

Can weaker character transmutate DB character if his hax is stronger than DB character resistance?

Yes, if A character have been show can transmutate on an universal scale or affect universal level begins, A character should definitely be capable to hax DB characters to death.

If B character can only transmutate just normal humans, then its far less likely as Vegito somewhat resisted Majin Buu's candy beam and characters stronger than him should have comparable if not stronger resistance.

 

[Vietthai96]

How strong excactly are hax resistances in db? Can they resist Marvel/DC heralds or Gods transmutation? Can they resist Hades (Saint Seiya) ee? Can they resist Universal time stop/skip?

This is not revelant in anyway to this thread

 

[Antvasima]

Disagree with this strength = resistance nonsense. If we’re going to seriously buy this, we have to ignore the following:


*boss rabbit being a threat to goku via his carrot touch despite being weaker
*Chiaotzu being able to paralyze goku despite being weaker than goku
*Devilman being able to affect anyone stronger than him with his “blowing up their heart” move
*The Mafuba working on anyone stronger than the person who uses it
*Ginyu being able to swap bodies with Goku, potentially vegeta, and frieza's men
*Guldo's timefreeze working on people stronger than him
*Guldo's paralysis working on gohan and krillin
*Android 19 and 20 being able to absorb ki from someone stronger than them
*Poison affecting Goku in the Universe 6 tournament
*literally anytime Buu absorbs characters far stronger than them.

This makes sense to me. Thank you for the evaluation.

 

[Orange]

This makes sense to me. Thank you for the evaluation.

It doesn't, at all.
We aren't doing "Goku Is stronger than this guy, thus he can resist all of his abilities"
We are doing "This hax was resisted via high enough ki/energy, thus anyone that uses ki, and has high enough ki will get resistance to that specific hax "
Jiren resisted time hax because he was strong, literally that's it, thus anyone That's stronger than him and uses ki will get resistance to time hax.

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

It doesn't, at all.
We aren't doing "Goku Is stronger than this guy, thus he can resist all of his abilities"
We are doing "This hax was resisted via high enough ki/energy, thus anyone that uses ki, and has high enough ki will get resistance to that specific hax "
Jiren resisted time hax because he was strong, literally that's it, thus anyone That's stronger than him and uses ki will get resistance to time hax.

I agree with that, it makes sense.

 

[Ruphas_Mafahl123]

The arguments presented against this resistances which have been stated and shown in canon to be resisted via higher power, are simply pathetic. Even someone above was trying to deny Vegito's transmutation resistance, even when the Daizenshu blatantly states it.

 

[ArmBill]

I don't get the point to keep using examples that are irrelevant to what we're talking about. How specific do we need to be? I'll reword the title to maybe destroy the notion were talking about everything .

 

[Vietthai96]

we doing this case by case, not generalize everything

 

[sanicspood]

This makes sense to me. Thank you for the evaluation.

This point got countered already

 

[ArmBill]

Also something I noticed is janemba has a resistance on his page for Shenron not being able to affect him. So if it's listed there it should be listed in other places as well.

 

[Ruphas_Mafahl123]

Also something I noticed is janemba has a resistance on his page for Shenron not being able to affect him. So if it's listed there it should be listed in other places as well.

My perspective whenever a significant DB CRT comes through:

 

[Antvasima]

It doesn't, at all.
We aren't doing "Goku Is stronger than this guy, thus he can resist all of his abilities"
We are doing "This hax was resisted via high enough ki/energy, thus anyone that uses ki, and has high enough ki will get resistance to that specific hax "
Jiren resisted time hax because he was strong, literally that's it, thus anyone That's stronger than him and uses ki will get resistance to time hax.

Okay.

@AKM sama @Elizhaa @DarkDragonMedeus

What do you think?

 

[Tarang123]

It doesn't though. It just means Hit made a more potent time ability, the guy know for improving his abilities. Plus in that episode they strictly say Jirens power over came Hit's ability. Debunking your notion that's it not power>hax

Bruh. The whole point is that he was able to affect someone astronomically more powerful than himself with his time stop.

Goku is well know for holding back. Right after he was blind by a solar flare, he was off guard, not even paying attention to anyone

So? Why would goku be holding back when he was literally about to fight monaka who he thought was the strongest.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

This is an uber lengthy thread, but I don't quite agree with everything here. I agree that having a higher power level often hints stronger resistances, but I don't think it should be assumed to resist "Everything"

 

[ArmBill]

Bruh. The whole point is that he was able to affect someone astronomically more powerful than himself with his time stop.

That just means it speaks well for his technique he developed, if that's how you apply it. You're point doesn't work anyways, because in the same fight it's shown and stated he surpasses Hit with power. Which is what the premise is supporting. As well as before the time cage he negates the regular time skip as well.

So? Why would goku be holding back when he was literally about to fight monaka who he thought was the strongest.

Because they weren't fighting yet? Plus it's not like monaka was evil and he to stay on guard just talking to him. Even people who would be more nefarious, he let his guard down. Plus we see Goku get hit by solar flare, since he's not paying attention to anything. That's letting his guard down.

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

This is an uber lengthy thread, but I don't quite agree with everything here. I agree that having a higher power level often hints stronger resistances, but I don't think it should be assumed to resist "Everything"

I don't think they are arguing that it resists everything, only what is shown being resisted through sheer power is the resistance given to everyone on that level I think.
I don't know if they are arguing that the stronger you are the higher the resistance is though, I'm not sure about that.

 

[ArmBill]

This is an uber lengthy thread, but I don't quite agree with everything here. I agree that having a higher power level often hints stronger resistances, but I don't think it should be assumed to resist "Everything"

We're not trying to get them to resist everything. That's why I wrote specific things they resisted. Is there anything I could fix that clarifies that more?

 

[ArmBill]

I don't think they are arguing that it resists everything, only what is shown being resisted through sheer power is the resistance given to everyone on that level I think.
I don't know if they are arguing that the stronger you are the higher the resistance is though, I'm not sure about that.

Well it would kind of come naturally if they're stronger it would be a stronger resistance than the one from a previous character.

 

[Damage3245]

In general, I'm not strongly in favor of cases where we have to reason out resistances for characters and apply them based on our assumptions.

Someone might end up with a list of resistances twenty lines long without actually having a single feat from themselves in combat.

Doesn't make their profile very reliable to me if the majority of their abilities come from what we assume they should logically have.

 

[ArmBill]

In general, I'm not strongly in favor of cases where we have to reason out resistances for characters and apply them based on our assumptions.

Someone might end up with a list of resistances twenty lines long without actually having a single feat from themselves in combat.

Doesn't make their profile very reliable to me if the majority of their abilities come from what we assume they should logically have.

I wouldn't say it's a assumption, due to these examples being propagated to be negated with power. Like when it's stated exactly. It's hard to say it's unreliable. Tbh

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Which resistances are we arguing again?

 

[Vietthai96]

Which resistances are we arguing again?

Resistance to Hit "time-skip" and Limited Resistance to Buu's Transmutation is two prime example

 

[ArmBill]

I have them all listed in the opening message

 

[Tarang123]

Because they weren't fighting yet? Plus it's not like monaka was evil and he to stay on guard just talking to him. Even people who would be more nefarious, he let his guard down. Plus we see Goku get hit by solar flare, since he's not paying attention to anything. That's letting his guard down.

That’s dumb. Again, he has no reason to hold back when he’s heard all these things about how strong monaka is