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Dragon Ball: Infinite Universe

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Reiner04

Reiner04

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Continue from here.

Primary Source​

Scan​

Super Anime - Episode 29:

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Combat Matches Are a Go! The Captain Is Someone Stronger Than Goku

"Combat Matches Are a Go! The Captain Is Someone Stronger Than Goku" (格かく闘とう試し合あい開かい催さい決けっ定てい！主しゅ将しょうは悟ご空くうより強つよいヤツ, Kakutō Shiai Kaisai Kettei! Shushō wa Gokū yori Tsuyoi Yatsu, lit. "It's Settled: We're Holding a Martial Arts Match! The Team Captain's Even Stronger Than Goku") is the...
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There are places beyond the edge of the Observable Universe that we see in Super since it's littered with stars and light. See the guide scans below for more details.

main-qimg-ff15384bb117d88a936a153996435d88-lq.jpg

Guides​

Daizenshuu 4​

Scan 1​

Screenshot_125.png

"Infinitely expanding and galaxy illuminations Ten of thousands of light years.. Hundreds of millions of light years.. Countless unknown aliens monsters live beyond stars where light cannot reach."

Scan 2​

This Daizenshuu scan refers to what we're calling the 'Observable Universe' here, it talks about an infinitely expanding light but with darkness that still dwells before it, and creatures that live there. This is the section where the Four Kaio govern their own associated cardinal direction holding countless galaxies.
IMG_6422.png

"The infinitely expanding universe is determined mainly by the direction that each king manages, and the place managed by the king is supervised by the king of the world, and the gods of the north, south, east, and west manage the Universe. Ultimately, the Great King God is supposed to oversee the whole world."

It's in the Unobservable Universe that lays beyond the edge. There are no contradictions. Everything is in line with the show.

Daizenshuu 4​

Now, for the scans on the infinite nature of the entirety of the Living World:
Screenshot_126.png

"An infinite space of light and darkness where the unknown lives"

Daizenshuu 7​

Screenshot_128.png

"An endless space that envelops all celestial bodies that exist in this world."

Chozenshu 4​


宇宙のしくみ
Structure of the Universe

地球にとどまらず、宇宙のさまざまな星々を舞台に繰り広げられる孫悟空たちの大活劇。悟空たちが住んでいる「地球」は、DB世界では「北の銀河」に属しており、「4032の緑の877惑星」と表現することができる。
Not limited to the Earth, the stage of the big adventure of Son Goku and the others unfolds on various planets/stars of the Universe. "Earth" where Goku and others live belongs to "North Galaxy" in the DB world, It can be described as "4032-Green-877-Planet".

この世全体は球体をしており、さらに破壊神ビルスによって、この広大な宇宙そのものは全部で12あると言われ、悟空たちが冒険を繰り広げている宇宙は「第七宇宙」に属している、と伝えられた。
This entire world is spherical, furthermore, Beerus, the God of Destruction, said that there are 12 vast universes in total and that the universe in which Goku and his friends are having an adventure belongs to the "Seventh Universe".

*Note: The term "この世" can mean "This world" in contrast to "あの世" which means "other-world" as the land of the dead. So in the context of Dragon Ball, it might refer to just the world of the living. So when you see "This world" here, it might refer to "World of Living"

この世はどこまでも果てしない広がりを見せ、DB世界は人知を超えた途方もないスケールを持つ世界観であることがわかるだろう。
"This World" shows an endless expanse, you will find that the DB world holds a worldview with a tremendous scale beyond human understanding.

*Note: For anyone that is wondering, the term here is "果てしない広がり" which can literally mean "something that spreads out without an end"

この第七宇宙は、サイヤ人やフリーザ一味、魔導師ビビディが生み出した魔人ブウなどにより、何百もの星が破壊された過去を持つ。
In the Seventh Universe, the Saiya-jin and Frieza's army, and the Majin Buu brought forth by the mage Bibidi, destroyed hundreds of planets in the past.

また、悟空たちのふるさと・地球を含め、第七宇宙で起こるさまざまな出来事は、界王界の界王や界王神たちによって、中立的な立場で見守られ続けているのだ。
Also, including Goku and the other's hometowns, on Earth, the various events of the Seventh Universe are being continuously watched from a neutral standpoint by the Kaiō and Kaioshins Kaiōshin of the Kaiō World.
Click to expand...
Translation credits: here

The full quote from the guide is exactly here

Alternate Timelines​

Toei/GT​

Scan 1​

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Next Up, Goku

"Next Up, Goku" (悟ご空くうパワー全ぜん開かい!! ブッ飛とべヤコン, Gokū Pawā Zenkai!! Buttobe Yakon, lit. "Goku's Power Wide Open!! Blow Away Yakon") is the fourth episode of the Babidi Saga and the two hundred twenty-third overall episode in the original dubbed and the uncut Dragon Ball Z series. This episode first...
dragonball.fandom.com dragonball.fandom.com
What lies beyond, is the 'Unobservable Universe.' We call it Unobservable, because it's stated to be beyond the Stars and contain no light, and it is the same place where Yakon was stated to come from and reside in, and the place that they fought him in.
dragonball.fandom.com

Dark Star

This article is about Yakon's home world. For the planet with a similar name, see Dark Planet. Dark Star, or the Planet of Darkness (暗黒星, Ankokusei), is the homeworld of Yakon, one of Babidi's minions. During the battle in Babidi's Spaceship, Goku battled against Yakon, a strange dark green...
dragonball.fandom.com dragonball.fandom.com
Screenshot_129.png

Scan 2​

In GT, as well it has been supported that there are boundless galaxies.

GT has been accepted to be a alternate timeline and canon to super aka same cosmological structure to prime universe.

DBGT Episode 2:
j0y3hi.png


Also,
According to Herms, Chouzenshu 4 says that Dragon ball has infinite Galaxies.


Apparently, Akira Toriyama opted for the option of Dragon ball Super having countless galaxies based on the premise of what Jaco said.



Just remembering that the Chouzenshuus were directly supervised by Akira Toriyama, they were made in 2014 to introduce dragon ball Super.



So they are valid.

A Dragon ball fan reviewed Chouzenshuu and it already shows the universe of Dragon ball Super:


Scan translation: Galaxy

A cluster of stars at one location in the Universe. United stars form nebulae and several nebulae together form a Galaxy. The 4 Kaiohs who are responsible for the North, South, East and West govern these Galaxies. The division between North, South, East and West was created by the Gods and Kings of Heaven to control/supervise the infinite number of Galaxies in Outer Space.

People read incomplete Daizenshuu pages at surface level, see that it refers to both a Universe that is infinitely expanding and outright infinite, and falsely conclude that it has inconsistencies. This is false. The same people do this and end up thinking that the DB Universe only has 4 galaxies.
Read all available information, and with the proper context provided you will understand how the DB cosmology works. It's a cosmology that contains both an infinitely expanding Universe, and an infinite Universe.

Also about Bulma statement that they live at the edge of the Universe is kinda being overused and ignoring all the previous statements, also that it seems highly unlikely for eartg or milky way galaxy to be at the edge, it is more reasonable that Bulma is talking about observable Universe.

Agree: @LordGriffin1000, @Planck69, @Firestorm808 (possibly), @BestMGQScalerEver , @LuffyRuffy46307, @Guacamolefletcher, @pineappleman, @XXBenShapiroXx , @Jason_Courne, @Da3ggman, @Quasar002, @K_o_Karlyn, @1st_Virtue_of_Pure_Void, @Robo, @VegetaSama1453 , @Jaakor48, @Matrixxxx, @Lord_Farquaad69420, @TauanVictor , @DivineAura44 , @Vietthai96 , @Milly_Rocking_Bandit , @TheGreatBanana , @ShionAH , @Ottavio_Merluzzo , @FluffyCreatureZ , @Quantu , @SirAlex09 , @Georredannea15 , @The_Axiom_of_Virgo , @Baran3149 ,@Fezzih_007 ,@Braking , @denisnic55 ,@RaveeCPN , @Quintessence_PE , @Dagoth_OwO , @ImmortalDread , @Zamasu_Chan, @TiltedFN, @SSJGeminiJJ, @Maitreya, , @omegabronic (possibly), @Tarang123, @speedster352, @Lightning_XXI, @Trihexa102, @Apex_Predator_GX, @ShakeResounding, @Sir_Marvulous, @Vladimir

Disagree: @StrymULTRA, @AKUTO123, @Akagami_Shanks1, @Aachintya31

Neutral:@DarkDragonMedeus (leaning towards agreeing) , @Damage3245
 
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I agree

According to a director of DB, he claims that it is correct that the universe is infinite and has no doubt to be questioned.





Another databook citing this



Link where it was mentioned:

another guide


宇宙のしくみ
Structure of the Universe

地球にとどまらず、宇宙のさまざまな星々を舞台に繰り広げられる孫悟空たちの大活劇。悟空たちが住んでいる「地球」は、DB世界では「北の銀河」に属しており、「4032の緑の877惑星」と表現することができる。
Not limited to the Earth, the stage of the big adventure of Son Goku and the others unfolds on various planets/stars of the Universe. "Earth" where Goku and others live belongs to "North Galaxy" in the DB world, It can be described as "4032-Green-877-Planet".

この世全体は球体をしており、さらに破壊神ビルスによって、この広大な宇宙そのものは全部で12あると言われ、悟空たちが冒険を繰り広げている宇宙は「第七宇宙」に属している、と伝えられた。
This entire world is spherical, furthermore, Beerus, the God of Destruction, said that there are 12 vast universes in total and that the universe in which Goku and his friends are having an adventure belongs to the "Seventh Universe".

*Note: The term "この世" can mean "This world" in contrast to "あの世" which means "other-world" as the land of the dead. So in the context of Dragon Ball, it might refer to just the world of the living. So when you see "This world" here, it might refer to "World of Living"

この世はどこまでも果てしない広がりを見せ、DB世界は人知を超えた途方もないスケールを持つ世界観であることがわかるだろう。
"This World" shows an endless expanse, you will find that the DB world holds a worldview with a tremendous scale beyond human understanding.

*Note: For anyone that is wondering, the term here is "果てしない広がり" which can literally mean "something that spreads out without an end"

この第七宇宙は、サイヤ人やフリーザ一味、魔導師ビビディが生み出した魔人ブウなどにより、何百もの星が破壊された過去を持つ。
In the Seventh Universe, the Saiya-jin and Frieza's army, and the Majin Buu brought forth by the mage Bibidi, destroyed hundreds of planets in the past.

また、悟空たちのふるさと・地球を含め、第七宇宙で起こるさまざまな出来事は、界王界の界王や界王神たちによって、中立的な立場で見守られ続けているのだ。
Also, including Goku and the other's hometowns, on Earth, the various events of the Seventh Universe are being continuously watched from a neutral standpoint by the Kaiō and Kaioshins Kaiōshin of the Kaiō World.

Translation credits:


guide name chozenshu 4 I think

Full quote from the guide

 
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I honestly don't mind the universe being infinite given what's in the OP but there is still the matter of when we see Super Shenrons light in between both universe six and seven when he is summoned. Now you do see an invisible barrier around them which either means, they aren't infinite or the endless space is inside these bubbles.

I'll remain neutral for now.
 
Yeah gonna remain neutral, the majority of these statements are simply secondary information. Is there anything in current super anime/Manga that says the universe is infinite? Rather then weird archaic guides that predate super? Anyways neutral.
 
RIZEXX said:
Yeah gonna remain neutral, the majority of these statements are simply secondary information. Is there anything in current super anime/Manga that says the universe is infinite? Rather then weird archaic guides that predate super? Anyways neutral.
Click to expand...
The statement from Shenron IS from the Super anime. Episode 29 at 12:05 to be exact. Also a guide related to Super also calls it an endless expanse.
 
I agree kinda hoped to wait for Pineapple but heres another good explanation regarding the edge and center since I feel like this is gonna get stone walled to death with that point when using all the context and guides it’s clearly talking about the ”illumination” and not beyond the stars

Additional scans: this, this, and this (for those who don’t know what expansive means)

(Also I would recommend adding Toeiverse, Dbs manga, and Dbs Anime to the op)
LordGriffin1000 said:
I honestly don't mind the universe being infinite given what's in the OP but there is still the matter of when we see Super Shenrons light in between both universe six and seven when he is summoned. Now you do see an invisible barrier around them which either means, they aren't infinite or the endless space is inside these bubbles.

I'll remain neutral for now.
Click to expand...
higher dimensional barriers they’re universes meaning they’re 4D
 
Reiner said:
Yeah, Boundless is a another word for endless literally which is treated as Infinite here.
Click to expand...
Boundless has different spelling in Japanese from infinite, so it’s not necessarily the same thing even if treated here as the same. Anyway, besides a singular statement from Shenron what other main source material is there that proves infinite?
 
RIZEXX said:
Boundless has different spelling in Japanese from infinite, so it’s not necessarily the same thing even if treated here as the same. Anyway, besides a singular statement from Shenron what other main source material is there that proves infinite?
Click to expand...
There could be 0 indications from the main source because you can’t scrap supplementary material just because it would have to be contradicted for it not to be useable which is the main purpose of supplementary information luckily there’s support from the main source though making this more valid
 
godofice said:
There could be 0 indications from the main source because you can’t scrap supplementary material just because it would have to be contradicted for it not to be useable which is the main purpose of supplementary information luckily there’s support from the main source though making this more valid
Click to expand...
Only indication is a flimsy statement from Shenron and archaic guides. What else is there genuinely? Though still neutral
 
LordGriffin1000 said:
But they aren't stated to be higher dimensional barriers. A universe being 4-D doesn't mean it gets some undetermined barrier around it.
Click to expand...
Universes are separated by a neutral dimension, which contains thousands of galaxies, there is also the dimension of lights, which is described as "superdimensional", it is only accessible when the universe is not hold all the energy.
 
RIZEXX said:
Nigh-omniscient but was killed by King Piccolo. Does shenron know the size of the universe and it’s functions?
Click to expand...
Power level ≠ knowledge. Just because he's killed by king Piccolo means nothing. Also, he knows about an obscure ritual from a planet thousands of lightyears away from Earth that hasn't been used in over a thousand years, so I'd say knowing the universe's size isn't out of the question.
 
RIZEXX said:
Nigh-omniscient but was killed by King Piccolo. Does shenron know the size of the universe and it’s functions?
Click to expand...
He calls the universe a boundless expanse and seems to have an understanding of its size from the context of the episode. Also your King Piccolo point is hilarious. I meant nigh-omniscient as in he's basically one of the most reliable beings you can get a statement about cosmology from due to his cosmic awareness.
 
RIZEXX said:
Only indication is a flimsy statement from Shenron and archaic guides. What else is there genuinely? Though still neutral
Click to expand...
I don’t see what’s wrong with the guides considering there’s tons of statements supporting the idea but if we scrap guidebooks for being old then I could see your point
Hasty12345 said:
my problem is later renditions of the DBS universes are very clearly and explicitly finite
Click to expand...
wdym?
 
RIZEXX said:
Incorrect, it doesn’t always stand for mugen.

Kanji for Endless/Boundless used (果てしない) https://www.deepl.com/en/translator-mobile#ja/en/果てしない

https://jisho.org/search/果てしない
Click to expand...
That's no different than what mugen means btw and it's not really a kanji entirely either.
RIZEXX said:
Which is different from the kanji for Infinite (commonly 無限) https://www.deepl.com/en/translator-mobile#en/ja/Infinite
Click to expand...
無 means none, nothing, etc.

限 means limit, end, bound.
 
LuffyRuffy46307 said:
I agree

According to a director of DB, he claims that it is correct that the universe is infinite and has no doubt to be questioned.





Another databook citing this



Link where it was mentioned:

another guide


宇宙のしくみ
Structure of the Universe

地球にとどまらず、宇宙のさまざまな星々を舞台に繰り広げられる孫悟空たちの大活劇。悟空たちが住んでいる「地球」は、DB世界では「北の銀河」に属しており、「4032の緑の877惑星」と表現することができる。
Not limited to the Earth, the stage of the big adventure of Son Goku and the others unfolds on various planets/stars of the Universe. "Earth" where Goku and others live belongs to "North Galaxy" in the DB world, It can be described as "4032-Green-877-Planet".

この世全体は球体をしており、さらに破壊神ビルスによって、この広大な宇宙そのものは全部で12あると言われ、悟空たちが冒険を繰り広げている宇宙は「第七宇宙」に属している、と伝えられた。
This entire world is spherical, furthermore, Beerus, the God of Destruction, said that there are 12 vast universes in total and that the universe in which Goku and his friends are having an adventure belongs to the "Seventh Universe".

*Note: The term "この世" can mean "This world" in contrast to "あの世" which means "other-world" as the land of the dead. So in the context of Dragon Ball, it might refer to just the world of the living. So when you see "This world" here, it might refer to "World of Living"

この世はどこまでも果てしない広がりを見せ、DB世界は人知を超えた途方もないスケールを持つ世界観であることがわかるだろう。
"This World" shows an endless expanse, you will find that the DB world holds a worldview with a tremendous scale beyond human understanding.

*Note: For anyone that is wondering, the term here is "果てしない広がり" which can literally mean "something that spreads out without an end"

この第七宇宙は、サイヤ人やフリーザ一味、魔導師ビビディが生み出した魔人ブウなどにより、何百もの星が破壊された過去を持つ。
In the Seventh Universe, the Saiya-jin and Frieza's army, and the Majin Buu brought forth by the mage Bibidi, destroyed hundreds of planets in the past.

また、悟空たちのふるさと・地球を含め、第七宇宙で起こるさまざまな出来事は、界王界の界王や界王神たちによって、中立的な立場で見守られ続けているのだ。
Also, including Goku and the other's hometowns, on Earth, the various events of the Seventh Universe are being continuously watched from a neutral standpoint by the Kaiō and Kaioshins Kaiōshin of the Kaiō World.

Translation credits:


guide name chozenshu 4 I think

Full quote from the guide

Click to expand...

If you think they are too old, read my comment, where the newest DBS guide is quoted, where he even talks about Beerus.
 
Reiner said:
That's no different than what mugen means btw and it's not really a kanji entirely either.

無 means none, nothing, etc.

限 means limit, end, bound.
Click to expand...
Literally two different words spelled entirely different. And when put into an actual Japanese dictionaries give different results
 
godofice said:
I don’t see what’s wrong with the guides considering there’s tons of statements supporting the idea but if we scrap guidebooks for being old then I could see your point

wdym?
Click to expand...
There can be statements in guides really my only issue is the lack of statements in CURRENT SUPER. And yeah 99% of these guides are for the Z anime and are archaic. But like I said still neutral
 
RIZEXX said:
What intellectual feats does Shenron have that allow him to know about the literal infinite sized universe? Legit am I missing something
Click to expand...
Da3ggman said:
Also, he knows about an obscure ritual from a planet thousands of lightyears away from Earth that hasn't been used in over a thousand years, so I'd say knowing the universe's size isn't out of the question.
Click to expand...
 
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