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sucks you don't have authority for these crt's would have been over by now
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Dragon Ball universal space time number downgrade
- Thread starter Omegabronic
- Start date
- Status
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clover, we need your feedback here if you can, would be appreciated
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I do what I can. What can I say?
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well we just need for you to approve the calc, it was already accepted according to the OP, so i guess we need further calc member input?
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- Thread starter
- #405
Could you guys leave the discussion about another thread in said thread?
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The Calc has been accepted so Kaioshin Realm can probably be removed
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i just needed to ask him here, and i didn't know if i could @ him or not
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- Thread starter
- #408
You haven't saw the op in a while have you?
I updated it already to organize arguments to make easiet for stafg to see and evaluate, plus DDM's explanation about some earlier decisions made it already removed weeks ago
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UPDATE again
So the Afterlife has been calc to be 2,197,272.72 times bigger than the Observable Universe. With this being the case Kaioshin Realm is now calc'd at 219727.272x the Universe in size so it no longer is of contention.
This brings us back the confirmed universes being
Living Realm, Kaioshin Realm, Grand Kaio Planet, and the Afterlife (containing Heaven)
So 4 Universes officially
In regards to Hell with the chart from the accepted Daizenshuu 4 splitting the realm based on jurisdiction, Hell makes up a third of this realm based on what is considered "Hell". With a realm that is millions of times greater than the universe, regardless of its actual size it makes up the entire bottom of the sphere consistently. Hell in itself has numerous spaces for all the planets in the universes aside from the general spaces like Bloody Pond, Pin Mountain and the Glacial Realm of DBGT. Its pretty apparent that based on the material that Hell is at least Universal in size but with the new calc that got accepted and taking the Daizenshuu 4 chart into consideration Hell is at most 1/3rd the size of the Afterlife.
To be honest the Dimension of Swirling Lights is the only thing here left to talk about if even because I and many others still agree with Luffy's reasoning which has already been accepted in the other thread.
So I still stand at the 6 Universes with 5 scaling to pre GoD levels and 12 for everything higher
So the Afterlife has been calc to be 2,197,272.72 times bigger than the Observable Universe. With this being the case Kaioshin Realm is now calc'd at 219727.272x the Universe in size so it no longer is of contention.
This brings us back the confirmed universes being
Living Realm, Kaioshin Realm, Grand Kaio Planet, and the Afterlife (containing Heaven)
So 4 Universes officially
In regards to Hell with the chart from the accepted Daizenshuu 4 splitting the realm based on jurisdiction, Hell makes up a third of this realm based on what is considered "Hell". With a realm that is millions of times greater than the universe, regardless of its actual size it makes up the entire bottom of the sphere consistently. Hell in itself has numerous spaces for all the planets in the universes aside from the general spaces like Bloody Pond, Pin Mountain and the Glacial Realm of DBGT. Its pretty apparent that based on the material that Hell is at least Universal in size but with the new calc that got accepted and taking the Daizenshuu 4 chart into consideration Hell is at most 1/3rd the size of the Afterlife.
To be honest the Dimension of Swirling Lights is the only thing here left to talk about if even because I and many others still agree with Luffy's reasoning which has already been accepted in the other thread.
So I still stand at the 6 Universes with 5 scaling to pre GoD levels and 12 for everything higher
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- Thread starter
- #410
You guys really have not read the op again have you? The kaioshin realm was not part of this for weeks dude
i still stand that this graphic is not talking about size and it is using the already reject macrocosm map scale, plus the fact that it is saying thar hell is physically inside the afterlife, which is a problem as explained earlier
you mean all the 20 planets with sentient life as explained in super?
I honestly can't see how
Why does the other thread matter when this thread is presenting counter arguments for it and was made because of it? The vote in that thread is not aplicable here, why is everyone bringing this up?
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The chart is talking about Jurisdiction, not size. We can tell that because of Emma's Mansion taking up the mid section of the sphere. However what we can infer is that Emma's domain and control consist of the mid section (The Check-In Station, The Otherworld Airport, Snake Way, Princess Snake's Castle, etc). Everything above that is under the jurisdiction of the 4 Kais and the Grand Kai (All the Kaio Planets, Heaven and Grand Kai's world) and everything below these two is Hell (The Bloody Pond, Pin Mountain, The Glacial Zone, every space for the planets in the universe). Based on that we can tell what amount of the Afterlife belongs to Hell since Hell itself is a single space-time unlike Emma's Mansion and The Kaiou Realm.
Hell would be no problem being inside the Afterlife considering the Grand Kai Planet (Another Low 2-C Universe) sits right there inside the Afterlife.
Also dude it's 2023 and you still believe the DB universe had 20 planets is absolutely wild lol the 20 planets which actually 28 planets represent civilizations that are capable of combat. The mere fact that there's a Frieza planet 78 means that this was just complete oversight on the failing Supreme Kai's end, hence why the mortal realm is so low. This number also didn't take account all the planets destroyed by saiyans, frieza soldiers, and Majin Buu which would still have their own hells, albeit more full.
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- Thread starter
- #412
Again, hell is another separated space time, it litterally cannot be "under" emma's palace, if you say that it is litterally under physically, then you are saying that it is in the same space, aka it would be in the same space time as the afterlife
No we can't? No ammount of the afterlife is hell, since hell is not part of it at all, ir is a separated space time
Plus as you said, that is not talking about size but division of roles, so we couldn't find a size from it anyway
Another space time, it litterally can't be physically inside the afterlife
No it was not, it was in general
or that these planets are not all with sentient mortal life, just because freeza has them doesn't mean that all of them have mortal life in them, at worst this is just a super retcon
Do we know how many were destroyed? As i said earlier, a planet the size of, for example, the solar system would be far more thab enough to host the entire population of these planets, specially when not all of them go to hell, as shown in yhe janemba movie, a high number of them are just cleaned and then are sent to heaven, so that is a really weak reasoning for it to be universal in size
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Dude what? Hell in all mediums of Dragon Ball has consistently been located under snake way, Emma's palace, etc. Goku and Pikkon have to fly down to reach it and can fly back to reach the Grand Kai's Planet, two separate space times, it's the same way one can enter into the Hyperbolic Time Chamber, its a ridiculous argument.
The mere fact that no one there knew of Broly who was on Vampa is exactly what I mean by oversight. Using the Manga makes this worst because there's more aliens introduced in the prison planet saga, Supreme Kai didn't even know about Beerus at one point or about the Potara time limit. The Kai is not a reliable source of info is what's always been consistent, another example is when he forgot Maggeta's people existed in U7. Even in the scan you presented was again more oversight. Moro had consumed alone 320 Planets with life on them and Majin Buu was noted to destroy hundreds of worlds, Frieza and Cold have displaced numerous races in the Planet Trade Organization and Beerus has destroyed numerous planets, it wasn't just Sadala, Vegeta and New Namek that have been destroyed in between that time.
After this very statement there are exactly 29 different planets:
-Yardrat
-Earth
-Frieza Planet 79
-Vampa
-New Namek
-Cereal
-Dark Planet
-Mars
-Potafu
-Zuno’s Planet
-The Heeter’s hideout
-Planet Wagashi
-Beerus’ planet
-Galactic System 66,950
-Frieza Planet 17
All the Planets Moro consumed:
-Hedgehog Planet
-Planet zoon
-Yellow Fish Monster Planet
-Planet Zung
-Millipede Water Planet
-2 Unknown Planets
-Frieza was also heading to a planet that had not been touched by Moro
-Jaco’s Trading outpost Planet
-The Universe Tournament Announcers planet
-An Unknown Sand Planet that Goku IT’d to
-Another unknown Planet Goku and Gas teleported to
-A Planet with Squid Humanoids
-Dinosaur Planet
As well as all the Galactic Patrol Outpost on various different planets
And we get to see these planets in the show/manga not even including all the planets shown destroyed prior to ToP not including filler outside of Potafu and I mentioned not a single Toei GT Planet which would exist because they have the same cosmology. So no that statement was just again oversight and the lack of the young supreme kai taking his job seriously.
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I think it's much more accurate to say you've gotta fly down to go to the entrance to Hell, which isn't a physical entrance but something akin to a portal (as shown in GT)
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exactly with the clouds and various barriers being the separation between the rest of the afterlife and Hell there's literally nothing wrong with this
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I think Omegabronic is taking it as "since you have to fly down to get there, that means you're traveling there physically" when this is not the case. You have to physically travel to the "entrance", which leads to the separate space-time that is Hell
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Finally somebody gets me lol
Vietthai96
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Also in GT, Piccolo and Dende need to open a portal so Goku can return to Earth from Hell
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- Thread starter
- #420
Yeah, because there is a portal in the cloud layer that take people to hell, if you want to say that hell is physically under all those places you can, but you would need to disprove it being a separated space time, because separared space times letterally can't be physically conneted or have a 3D distance between them
The ROSAT has a portal that leads there, aka it would ne a completely situation to what you are saying, it isn't litterally in the living universe, it is separated from it, in your point about hell it would mean that it is physically conected to the afterlife, aka nor a separated space time
not really, shin specifically says that he did not look at their battle power, who is to say that he didn't count vampa also?
so? Multiple racea in habiting the same planet is perf3ctly possible
don't see how those 2 matter at all
so the kai having been wrong about other random subjects = they are wrong about the very topic that is their purpose to even exist?
In this case is specially ridiculous considering that he litterally is part of the beings that creates planets and life and stuff, qnd that he specifically says that he obversed them in that scene
you will need more than a few misunderstandings to prove that the kais are idiots in the very subject they were created to do
again, don't see how that matters for this subject?
yeah, in the past, nowadays there isn't as much
again, in the past
a planet can't hold multiple races because?
your point being?
do we know if some of the old ones sti have mortal life in them? Like planet freeza for example, after the freeza saga it may just have been abandoned after a while
japanese doesn't have multiples, so when shin says "20" it can as easily means "in the 20 range, or tens" did we ever got someone to translate that scan?
You went on a tangent with that one point weren't you? Well, let us discard it theb for one second, what changes for my other points? No matter if there is far more than 20 planets with mortal life, again, a non universal sized realm would be able to hold all of their populations easily enough, specially since we know not all of them actually go or stay in hell
exactly, it nothing more than a portal that sucks you into hell, they are not physically conected or in the same space time at all
Yes there is, the clouds hide a portal that leads to hell, our universe page litterally says that having a physical barrier or similar to separate 2 realms is against it being a sepaeated space time
No, i am saying exactly what you just said, just that because of that hell would not be "under" the afterlife, since space times are not anywhere physically in relation to each other in a 3D sense like that, so it is impossible to use such logic to say that size of one
No, they are not, if they are a physical barrier separating both then hell wouldn't br a separated space time at all, they can't be physically connected or separated by any 3D stuff at all
If you say that you are saying that it is physically under the clouds and as such connect spatially with the afterlife, aka not being a separared space time as per out standards
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- #421
Universe
The Universe is all of space and time and their contents, including planets, stars, galaxies, all forms of matter and energy. Due to the unknown spatial size of the universe, we use the size of the observable universe as a baseline for universal feats. The observable universe is currently...
vsbattles.fandom.com
"In fiction there are cases where a wall or some non-physical analog separates two realms. However, while such a barrier might serve to separate the realms within the cosmology of said fiction, note that the spaces are not necessarily separate universes by our standards. That is because, while the wall may make it difficult in practice, one could in theory still move from one realm to the other with just regular three dimensional movement. That means that the realms are still part of one common three dimensional space, which by our standards constitutes only one universe."
If you say that the clouds are physically above hell and that they litterally are the only thing that separates it from the afterlie, then hell is not a separated apace time by our standards
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A door is literally the only thing that separates one space time from another with the HBTC and the Grand Kai planet like what?Universe
The Universe is all of space and time and their contents, including planets, stars, galaxies, all forms of matter and energy. Due to the unknown spatial size of the universe, we use the size of the observable universe as a baseline for universal feats. The observable universe is currently...
"In fiction there are cases where a wall or some non-physical analog separates two realms. However, while such a barrier might serve to separate the realms within the cosmology of said fiction, note that the spaces are not necessarily separate universes by our standards. That is because, while the wall may make it difficult in practice, one could in theory still move from one realm to the other with just regular three dimensional movement. That means that the realms are still part of one common three dimensional space, which by our standards constitutes only one universe."
If you say that the clouds are physically above hell and that they litterally are the only thing that separates it from the afterlie, then hell is not a separated apace time by our standards
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- #424
No, the dimensional walls are what separated one space time to another, with the door being only a portal to it that is made when people open it, the ROSAT is Earth size dude, if all that separated it from the normal universe was a door then the kami lookout would be Earth sized, think about what you are saying
if there is 2 cloud layers than you would need to prove that hell's one is as big as the otherworld one, also provide scans for "2 cloud layers"
Also "there can be" any proof that there is?
Which means nothing since hell is not bellow it since it is another separated space time, you can't use this analogy while still saying that it is a separated space time, one contradicts the other, you can't have your cake and eat it too
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Because there literally IS, there is a second cloud layer beyond the portal when goku fell through, so that cloud layer that extends across the entire afterlife is also the barrier for hell, which would make it uni in size.
it doesn't matter if it is another spacetime, why do you keep saying this? It's under it in the sense that you go down to go through the portal which leads to the afterlife.
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Tbh I think you're needlessly complicating things here
Hell is a separate space-time. It can't be accessed physically, requiring the use of the likes of a portal (as shown in GT)
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i know this, but omega keeps saying it is not universal in size, and im telling him the cloud layer stretches as far as the entire afterlife does, and the cloud layer, acting as two barriers on the other side of the spacetime, thats what makes it uni.
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- #428
Why would a cloud layer in one space time matter for a completely different one in anothet space time? The cloud layer of the afterlife is that big yes, but why would the different cloud layer from hell be that big?
If you are not saying that it is litterally under physically then your logic for using the cloud layer to scale hell's size makes 0 sense
There is no "other side" wheb it comes to separated space times, they are not close or far, neither are they "relative" to one anothet in a sense that things such as "side" matters, they are separated spatioally temporally, there is no way that they are "close" for the clouds to separate them physically, one cloud layer being big doesn't prove that the other one also is that big, stop treating both as the same, they are different cloud layers
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Because on the other side of the portal, there is another cloud layer, implying it extends just as much as the afterlife
obviously you need a portal, but the cloud layer acts as the barrier, with the portal underneath when you enter, and then when you go to the other side, there is ANOTHER cloud layer.
it literally is the other side, the other side of the dimensional wall, you are just not understanding what im saying. Besides saying it's universal in size makes more sense then having some arbitrary size that has literally no evidence pointing too
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- #431
It is a portal dude, it is sinply teleporting from one space time tp the other, why both having cloud imply that it extends as much as thw afterlife? It just means that hell also has a cloud layer that extends as much a it, hell, does, i really don't know why you keep bringing one cloud layer and saying that both need to be as big as one anothet, when that is never implied or stated
says who? They act as a portal, that is it, what separates the dimensions are the dimension walls, which are the very fabric of space time itself inside the realms, the clouds are purely covering a massive portal, that's it, to say that they do anything else would require you to bring evidence
yeah, hell also has a cloud layer, why does this matter? Why hell having a cloud lauer covering it matters? How does it prove its size? If you aknoledge that hell's is a different cloud layer, then why do you keep bringing it up?
No, it isn't, a space time cannot be right bellow another physically, a space time being physically "bellow" another makes no sense, they are not even in the same 3D space for notions of "above" and "bellow" to mean anything really
The cloud layer simply hides a portal to hell, that is it, hell is not bellow it, hell is not on the "other side" of it, just like how the ROSAT is not on the other side of the kami lookout, it is sinply a portal that opens for people to get there, that's it
Saying that it is universal in size with no proof is taking an arbitrary size that has no evidence poiting to, i never gave it any size whatsoever, i just gave example of sizes that would serve the purpose of hell just as good as a universal one would, on contrary to heaven where dead souls stay, in hell you eventually gets reincarnated and gets send back to the living world, as explained by piccolo to majin vegeta, or you get directly cleaned and sent to heaven, as shown in the janemba movie
They work differently for different purposes, so you can't even use their usage as an argument for size, hell has litterally 0 arguments for it to be universal in size whatsoever, somehow even less than the dimension of swirling lights
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In the anime and manga too
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In the Toei anime, Emma is shown opening a portal to throw Cell straight into hell.
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Imo the hardest evidence for hell being at least as large as the cloud layer of the afterlife and by extension universe sized, is Fusion Reborn depictions wherein the afterlife had been merged with hell and we see a clear view of hell compared to the cloud layer ( by then transformed into jellybeans by janemba ) and its of not insignificant size compared to it.
You can check this by looking at the frames where Gogeta illuminates hell upon first appearance in the movie.
furthermore there are statements of Gogeta creating a bigbang level explosion and only shaking hell meaning hell can contain a 3-A event within its established borders
You can check this by looking at the frames where Gogeta illuminates hell upon first appearance in the movie.
furthermore there are statements of Gogeta creating a bigbang level explosion and only shaking hell meaning hell can contain a 3-A event within its established borders
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- Thread starter
- #435
In that movie janemba drastically altered reality and the laws of the universe is so many ways that i am very cautions to even count that at all when reality in the afterlife is severely altered in the movie by janemba, plus do we see it compared to all of cloud layer to say that it isn't insignificant compared to it?
You mean the outer space shot of the living universe?
That is a durability feat for hell more than anything, not a size evidence
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I disagree with this because the point is that the Big Bang event occurred within Hell without leaking outside of it
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- #437
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The Big Bang event is that stardust spiral-looking thing, right? There's no evidence that that's what went into the living universe, rather it just appears to be some sort of energy signal (as Goten and Trunks recognized that Goku and Vegeta fused)
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- #439
It is very clearly the light from it, also, even without that, there is nothing to say that it didn't leave hell at all
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Nah they're pretty distinct. One's a starry looking event while the other is the standard ki color and that's it (it basically just looks like a regular ass ki blast)
If it left Hell, it would've most certainly been noticed. But no, the only thing we get is Goten and Trunks feeling Gogeta's ki. Nobody takes notice of such an event
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