Dragon Ball Super's scaling issue #9001: AKA this is not a revision request, nor any attempt to change anything about DBZ profiles. I just want to und

[Dragonmasterxyz]

And Zamasu is far stronger than Shin. Simple as that. Whether you like it or not is none of my concern.

Yes

We are. You just don't like it. Simple powerscaling.

 

[Dark649]

Your argument doesn't make sense. If there's no reason for 18 to be that strong, and she has no feats on that level, you can't say she is Universe level. 18 is Large Star level, she's not one bit stronger than in the Android Saga. At best Krillin is Large Star level too. 17 meanwhile has been shown to be much stronger.
The reason is that the writers decided to portray in said episode the character this way without knowing the feats and how much strong the character was in the previous arcs. The writers also don't consider the powerscaling like a sacred thing.

 

[Super_Saiyan_God_Julian]

Zamasu is a trained Kaioshin apprentice with a potential stated to be possibly able to match Beerus.

Meanwhile Shin has never been stated to have trained.

So yes I think Zamasu is a lot greater than Shin.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

@Dark649

And that's PIS. All the characters who have 3-A feats have explanations behind it, via training or new forms. Characters who throw one punch and stagger a 3-A, or block a casual punch from a 3-A will not get scaling, specially if they have no explanations of being that powerful.

18, Krillin, Tien and Roshi don't scale to the 3-A stuff. Simple. Just like you have to consider when Goku is suppressing himself in Base in fights, which he did in his fight against Krillin and 17, although 17 is clearly strong enough to require Goku to use a (suppressed) Blue Form to match 1s (suppressed) self.

 

[Antvasima]

Perhaps we should postpone this discussion until after the tournament is over, and make it staff only?

However, we have to make sure that it is better structured, and remains polite.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

I agree with Ant.

 

[Dark649]

That's a fine consideration, but remember that when a writer is given an opportunity to portray a character the way that he likes in an episode without any explanations or justification, that is what is going to happen. Like at example i would have liked to portray Tien as 3-A in the episodes.

 

[Antvasima]

So, should we close this thread to avoid any chaos?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

That's a fine consideration, but remember that when a writer is given an opportunity to portray a character the way that he likes in an episode without any explanations or justification, that is what is going to happen. Like at example i would have liked to portray Tien as 3-A in the episodes.

Yeah, but what you want to happen isn't what happens. A character showing something with no explanation behind it isn't acceptable scaling. We've been through this before.

 

[RadicalMrR]

Tien has about 4 instances of scaling to a tier 4, ill try and get them all before the revision.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Is it with Kikoho or normally.

 

[RadicalMrR]

I think only the Cell one involves the kikoho.

 

[Dark649]

Tien has about 4 instances of scaling to a tier 4, ill try and get them all before the revision.

But that's about his Kihoho, which is a move much stronger than himself and consumes his life. We will talk later about the others as i'm projecting myself about possible future events.

 

[Antvasima]

For the record, I agree about that we have to find a balance and not make absolutely everybody 3-A without very good reasons.

 

[ΚΟΜΙΞ]

For the record, I agree about that we have to find a balance and not make absolutely everybody 3-A without very good reasons.

I absolutely agree!!

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

W-wait... Kale is 3-A... Because she broke Super ehncanced Katchin ? I agree about U11 being concerned and every other reasoning for her being 3-A , but Jiren had to step in, how powerful is she compared to previous threats ? That is the problem. I can't scale her properly.

These were some of the most formidable GoD's, and if it was reinforced to the point the couldn't break it, how could Kale do it with JUST her screams via scaling, if all of the GoD's are comparable to Beerus and Champa ( via their poison and the implied power it has ) ?

Funny thing is, Manga Fusion Zamasu's ultimate attack is cubes of Super Katchin ..

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

For the record, I agree about that we have to find a balance and not make absolutely everybody 3-A without very good reasons.

I generally agree that the humans absolutely don't scale to 3-A, considering that Krillin the strongest human is weaker than a suppressed Saiyan who is weaker than Base Goku.

Even 17 seems iffy and might be downgraded in the future.

But the Saiyans and the characters that fully scale all seem to be Multi-Galaxy level+ at least (Goku's base won't be 3-A, only his transformations)

 

[Antvasima]

@Matthew Yes. Of course. I am referring to Krillin and the like.

 

[Dark649]

.
Even 17 seems iffy and might be downgraded in the future.

I'm not sure because according to the spoilers, he is going to fight a three fused characters.

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

Didn't Goku destroy this suoer-dense ball that was going to destroy the Universe tight then in his base form as a final attempt at stopping Beerus ? Especially considering the fact Beerus commented Goku ( while only seeing his base form, as he didn't train with transformations ) to be stringer than that.

 

[Antvasima]

In any case, the tournament is not over yet, so we should probably close this thread.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Yeah.

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

Can anyone answer my last two replies before closing please , or should I ask them in the Super Disucusion thread ?

 

[Dark649]

Didn't Goku destroy this super-dense ball that was going to destroy the Universe tight then in his base form as a final attempt at stopping Beerus ? Especially considering the fact Beerus commented Goku (while only seeing his base form, as he didn't train with transformations) to be stringer than that.

Yes this is why i plan to put him at 3-A in base, he also fought with Beerus disguised as Monaka.

 

[Antvasima]

Fighting beerus in base will probably have to be considered as a plot-induced stupidity outlier.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

The scene was goofy in general. Beerus was wearing a Monaka costume and Goku's stupidity was pushed to 11. I wouldn't consider it legit.

 

[Dark649]

This is the full fight and at the end Beerus was serious and was going to clash with Goku.

 

[Antvasima]

By that logic SSBKKx10 Goku would be far superior to Beerus. The fight was in a filler episode that did not make any sense.

 

[FTW395]

Everyone in the TOP is 3-A, just a varied degree of 3-A exists beween the fighters.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

@FTW395

Nope. Roshi is in the tournament and he is 5-B. So is Tien and Krillin until further proof. The people they one-shot are even weaker.

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

The fact he wasn't one flicked in base, and put up more of a fight then SSG should be noted though Ant, especially wit Whis' comment : " He's having so much fun. " . Thanks Dark649.

Anyways, Kale cracking Super Katchin like that when it's implied Hakaishins of the highest order couldn't , doesn't scratch well with me. You can argue power, but considering the fact the should be comparable to Beerus and Champa through scaling and implied power... Yeah. This could prove Jiren to be stronger than Beerus though... [Inserts Joke]

EDIT: It frickin autocorected Beerus into Bee's

 

[FTW395]

@FTW395

Nope. Roshi is in the tournament and he is 5-B. So is Tien and Krillin until further proof. The people they one-shot are even weaker.

I know but wouldn't doing it my way be a lot easier haha

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

^ It would be interesting... But no one is seeing my problem.

If the GoD's, people comparable to Beerus and Champa, especially from the highest known universes , have difficulty , and seemingly have to get serious ( since this was a fight between GoD's, ey are proving how dense this thing was , and are fighting to please Great Priest & Zen'o : I'll assume they were definitely not casual, but rather serious and near FP, if not completely FP ) , to break the now reinforced Super Katchin. They only broke the WEAKER parts of the Katchin, in which the stronger parts was unaffected by their assault . This weaker parts were enhanced so that other GoD's wouldn't / have insane difficulty breaking.

Kale did it, except with the strongest, reinforced parts of the now reinforced Super Katchin with a screams & powering ups, & walking ( not helping te fact she did more damage than the GoD's initial fight ) and got the attention and was viewed as a enough of a threat to the others that Jiren, someone apparently stronger than Beerus, felt it was necessary to personally do it. Meaning, he didn't feel like anyone else in U1 could have, including Toppo, whose the closest thing to SSBKK, if not stronger ( due to Goku saying he will surpass his limits to fight Toppo, implying he would use something beyond KKX10 )

Now does everyone see why I have a problem ? Not with Toppo & Jiren. But the Super Katchin. Because this Super Katchin feat makes her comparable to the GoD...

Before anyone says this is an easy feat ... It isn't. The entire Super Katchin is reinforced for that purpose. To hold 80 people fighting simultaneously. whom the majority are 3-A. The GoD did less damage on an non reinforced Super Katchin being serious on it then Kale did causally to an reinforced Super Katchin.

 

[PaChi2]

I just want to say that it may be useful to create "DBS powerscaling rules" similar to the Marvel and DC ones, since it seems a rather difficult task.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

That honestly may be best.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

It's not difficult. It's just that the verse is so popular it attracts fanboys and haters who meddle the discussions from truly progressing smoothly.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, my apologies, but it is probably best if I close this discussion now. We can try again later after the tournament is over, in a more structured manner and for staff only.