Dragon Ball Super's scaling issue #9001: AKA this is not a revision request, nor any attempt to change anything about DBZ profiles. I just want to und

[Amexim]

As I said, this shit is super (haha) important. I'm not trying to change anything, as we definitely should wait until after this current arc to do changes and issues. But I think if we talk about this calmly and respectfully now, we can save trouble for the wiki in the future.

So, for now, this would be a debate for or against the canonicity of Goku having two base forms. I completely agree with the baseline scaling, and agree that Universe 6 and all those other new characters shouldn't be Universal either. However, I don't think using a fan theory to justify bad writing is the way to go.

I will get on my metaphorical knees to beg the Staff not to remove this thread-- this topic would/should come up about eventually for discussion, because I, like many people, don't support the JUSTIFICATION for U6 and others' solar system level rating, in the form of Goku having two bases. This needs to be discussed. Please, DO NOT run from this issue.

My argument will be kept short to a couple of short sentences, that will be expanded upon after I get responses or retorts. Or get silenced...

1. While the scaling makes sense, there's no objectively Canon statement that confirms the EVER IMPORTANT point that Goku has two base forms, so it's at best a fan theory-- and is effectively the same thing as just saying he's suppressing himself to Solar System level (which has it's own problems, yes, but let's not talk about that).

2. We can't actually tell when he has these forms active.

3. All "concrete" evidence for it's existence is at best no longer applicable to the current story-- for example, the statement in the artbook about a SBG going SS turning into SSGSS. That is directly contradicted by two things-- that being Goku going in and out of SS to SSB/SSGSS without being in SBG (unless he has two sets of Super Saiyan forms, which is ridiculous...)-- and a Statement of Gowasu saying that Goku rivaled the power of a God of Destruction (in SS2).

Come at me... *Flinches at the Staff Hakai'ing the shit out of this Thread. Death groans*

 

[Giygas3]

Staff: HAKAI! (Thread get's locked)

But in all honesty, I don't disagree with you, however... Couldn't you just wait until the whole Universe Survival games to finish? Perhaps more information could come up later on, until then... It's just best to wait.

 

[Amexim]

The Gowasu Quote, literally right here!

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=S_tvepM9Q8w

His power rivals a God of Destruction, yet he's not a God...? He's in SS2... The same form he was against Goku Black. And we've already seen Goku fight against Beerus in his normal SS form, so it's not out of the question.

The only counter I can see to this is the idea that Gowasu was working off of the fact that Goku survived a fight with a Hakaishin, so he just assumed he rivaled Beerus. Beerus got pissed after he said that.

But anyway,

1. Why would he do that [see above]? He even made the mistake of saying that he rivals Beerus and apologized for it-- he obviously meant it and was acknowledging Goku's power to be incredible at the very least. Sure, it's not likely that he actually rivals Beerus in SS2, but that leads me to my next point.

2. Logic would dictate his SS2 form after training should at least be comparable to his SS 1 form from the fight against the likely HEAVILY Suppressed Beerus. And we all know how that goes. Just because Beerus was holding back and Gowasu made the mistake of misunderstanding the depth of Beerus' power doesn't mean Goku's SS2 is Solar System for some reason when SS wasn't before, and the power loss hasn't been explained. Leading to point 3.

3. It's lazy writing. Even if you don't wanna go as far as to say Goku rivals Beerus' true power, it doesn't nullify the gravity of this scene and the weight of their compliments. It is entirely possible, and extremely likely that Goku is at least as strong as what he was before during that time-- and that the confusion of Goku's power caused by these statements is less evidence for Goku downplay and more evidence for Beerus hype. Gowasu's statement holds weight, not by saying Goku is as strong as Beerus specifically, but by praising Goku's strength to be massive.

To reiterate, the problem of the statement has less to do with Goku being weaker than Gowasu says, but Beerus being way stronger than we were shown and Gowasu knew. Either way, Goku can't be just Solar System Level if Zanmasu is supposed to be a Kaioshin prodigy and he gets a compliment like that! What, you think Cell would be confused for a rival of a GoD?!

• Flinches* Please don't Hakai me staff-senseis!!!

 

[Amexim]

Nah, I couldn't. It hurts my soul too much to sit and wait a year before we have this discussion-- plus it'll get the shit storm over with well before without having to do any revisions. Like I said, this isn't a revision request, but I just want to make this argument now before a shit storm and staff only discussions happen. Ya know what I mean?

 

[Amexim]

And, well, I am 100% confident that there is no need to wait for more evidence, tbh. This plot point is too important not to have been addressed. I also have scaling proposals as well-- basically everything would stay the same with At least Solar System, and maybe a possibly Universal at the end with some explanation as to why it should be taken with a grain of salt. DBS has shit scaling! Why not be honest about it, so this wiki can be as accurate as it can be, ya feel me?

 

[Super_Saiyan_God_Julian]

@Amexim actually this has been discussed numerous times already. Many staff members and regular members agree with 3-A Base Goku. However it has already been decided that we will wait until the Tournament of Power ends until we make any upgrades/revisions.

As such this should probably be closed and discussed another time

 

[Giygas3]

@Super Agreed, this would be best.

 

[Amexim]

I'm not asking for revisions. Can I get an elaboration on what that means?

 

[Super_Saiyan_God_Julian]

@Amazon I'm not saying you are wrong I'm just saying that the Staff has decided to discuss this after the tournament because if not there would be a ton of DBS upgrade threads everyday.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Bottom line, we agree with you, but we're waiting to the end of the Universe Survival arc to save us pain for all the revisions that will come with it, and make it go all at once.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

We agree. Goku will become Multi-Galaxy level+ in base.

 

[Giygas3]

Essentially what Cal just said. I'm really surprised this is finally going through, took about a year huh? Either way, I Believe awhile back Kav stated we should probably wait before the end of the saga before upgrading or what not, so does this about wrap up this thread?

 

[Super_Saiyan_God_Julian]

@Giygas3 Yes I think it would.

 

[Amexim]

Like, I'm making it expressly clear. No one has to change anything until after the arc. But I want to know if they're still gonna treat SBG as an actual form or not-- because that's my issue. It would be more accurate if they say At Least Solar System Level, for them at bare minimum because the U6 and others should be at least comparable to Cell or pre BoG Super Saiyan or a suppressed Super Saiyan-- Vegeta was confirmed to be holding back against Cabba, the way he just let him the kid punch him. Once again, not revisions request, I just want to talk about the reason for the Solar System ratings-- which makes sense btw.

 

[Amexim]

Thank you!!!

 

[Super_Saiyan_God_Julian]

@Amexim As far as I know SBG will no longer be treated as an actual form as it has been retconned out from the movies and videogames.

 

[Antvasima]

After the revision we should probably get rid of the Saiyan Beyond God page.

 

[Dark649]

The users should also follow my blogs as this is thing i'm aiming for.

 

[Antvasima]

Yes. That would probably be good.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I generally agree that most every character would become Multi-Galaxy level+ or higher, except for the humans.

I think people should check out the OBD profiles for Dragon Ball Super. I generally agree with them a lot. GodMovement is generally the best Dragon Ball debater online.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Honestly, I think that the biggest upgrade the Tournament is giving is that Angels and Grand Priest are kinda confirmed Reality Warpers at this point.

 

[Dark649]

I generally agree that most every character would become Multi-Galaxy level+ or higher, except for the humans.

Given by my blogs i think Universe level is better. For the humans now it's uncertain, but if 18 is showed to fight evenly with 3-A opponent then they scales because Krillin defeated Majora, who knocked down 18, but the main reason is that the characters were being portrayed as this strong in order to fit in the tournament and in Super logic is a little required.

 

[Antvasima]

We can probably largely follow the OBD scaling, yes.

I wonder if any of the major OBD members will eventually migrate here btw? Our visitor numbers are constantly growing, so they would get a larger audience.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

@Dark649

I think that we need to be fair with the scaling here too. It's not just because Super is a linear storyline anime that there won't be outliers. And the stuff with the humans is generally grounds for that.

For instance, if 17 and 18 are suddenly treated as equals, then that might be grounds for downgrading 17, or we treat that as an outlier for 18. In general, the humans can't even measure up to Pre-Boost Gohan's base.

And I am only comfortable with a DBS upgrade going through here if it's accepted on the OBD, because they are much better DBS debaters than us.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

We can probably largely follow the OBD scaling, yes.
I wonder if any of the major OBD members will eventually migrate here btw? Our visitor numbers are constantly growing, so they would get a larger audience.

Nah, they are generally very prejudiced towards us and constantly mock us in their "Funny / Embarrassing Argument Thread".

Some members are more tolerant and unbiased, though.

 

[Ryukama]

@Dark649
For instance, if 17 and 18 are suddenly treated as equals, then that might be grounds for downgrading 17

Other staff have suggested this as well.

Also one of the writers who specifically did the 17 episode said Goku's been going SSB purely to test the waters with people during the recruitment. Which technically isn't contradicted in the episode itself. Especially with Goku saying he held back on 17.

Not suggesting any changes for now. Just something to keep in mind.

 

[Dark649]

But both them said that they were hiding their full strength. For 18 they will say lines like that her power increased over time as an Android, so training was not fully required. Anyway even if there are many reason to dislike what the humans will do in the tournament without any major reason is because the writers sadly decided to portray them this way.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. It isn't like we are being disrespectful towards them, or deliberately try to mess up though. I mean, as long as they are willing to accept our 1-C to 1-A scaling, they are welcome to help out with improving our profiles.

 

[Ryukama]

Have you forgot that 17 fought with Goku as SSB and both them said that they were hiding their full strength, that is no outlier.

My problem wouldn't be that it's an outlier. More like episode says Goku is holding back. WoG says Goku is holding back. And if 17 is now being portrayed as 18 level on top of that. Then these are all grounds to suggest 17 was never SSB level to begin with.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Have you forgot that 17 fought with Goku as SSB and both them said that they were hiding their full strength, that is no outlier. Anyway even if there are many reason to dislike the sudden human upgrades without any major reason is because the writers decided to portray them this way.

I agree that 17 is > Base Goku, though he likely doesn't scale to Super Saiyan Blue.

The reason I disagree with the other humans as 3-B+ is...

Krillin is weaker than Supressed Gohan Pre-Ultimate Boost.

18 never once trained since the Android Saga and Krillin at best is now equal to her.

The best I can see for Humans is Star level.

17 at least has the excuse of him having about 16 years of training.

Master Roshi and Tenshinhan are two other characters who now (Retroactively) never stopped training, and they are both below Krillin and 18.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I want to discuss this with SomebodyData. I generally like his judgment regarding Super.

 

[Dark649]

I changed a little my original comment, the fact is there is the impression that there are different writers between episodes as it can happen that 18 will show feats in the tournament that makes her equal to 17, i hope that doesn't happen, but it's likely.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

The Tournament admittedly has a lot of outliers.

For instance, SSJ2 Caulifla was able to deflect attacks from Kale, who now stomped SSB Goku and cracked the Super-Katchin arena. Although it could be argued that Kale held back because she didn't want to kill her friend / crush.

 

[Dark649]

Although it could be argued that Kale held back because she didn't want to kill her friend / crush.

When Kale was out of control she was going to attack Caulifla, but Jiren was able to oneshot her in time.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

That makes sense, I guess.

Who do you think will defeat Jiren? I hope it's Gohan.

 

[Dark649]

Gohan might attack him, but it's more likely that Goku will mostly deal with Jiren as it was implied in the intro, the current episodes and even in a DB Heroes video.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Do you agree that Ultimate Gohan > SSB Goku.

 

[Antvasima]

Wasn't there a leak that claimed that Goku will attain a new form to defeat Jiren?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

He will attain a New Form. That will probably the context behind it. I wonder if that will finally make Goku GoD level, since Jiren's apparently stronger than Beerus.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Also. This isn't a Tournament of Power thing so it should be okay.

Can we upgrade RoF Gohan and Tagoma to 4-B? Gohan stated that Tagoma would "rival me at my peak", meaning his Ultimate Form in the Buu Saga, and after Ginyu took over Tagoma, he became even stronger.