Dragon Ball Super: Universes/Timeline Tiering Revision

[Vietthai96]

yes there is, it is said the be a separated dimension, it is not considered to be part of the universe, it has its own space time, and we have no proof nor reason to believe that it is part of the timeline, for anyone to say that it is part of the timeline it would need evidence

Probably you misunderstands my point, i said about space-time in general not just DB. But anyway, a small space-time being a subset of another space-time. By your default assumption, we should nuke tier 1 onward. Thus, there is no reason to default assume that a space-time need to be separate by default. And when you said about evidence, i believe Ottavio already posted it being a subspace of U7 and belong to an area inside the Macrocosm. Thus the burden of proof is on you. Lastly, no, separate dimension doesn't automatically mean separate space-time, because you can well have two dimension separated by space but being constrain under the same time axis, time flow at different rate don't mean different space-time

Also for the sake of arguing, based on your logic, that space-time should be separate by default, then ROSAT should be entire outside of the timeline which contain 12 universes, the neutral space between universe, zeno realm, etc......which make no sense annd contradicted by many

refer to everytime anyone used the term universe in dbs, but also the main point was, with it not being considered to be inside the universe we now have no reason to believe that it is, same goes for the timeline

Proof??

If Pains revision goes through, branching timelines won’t be higher than low 2-C right?

Still 2-C and up, unless there is contradiction, such as the branch timeline is disjoined timeline, or the branch is not separated for infinite amount of time, or you don't actually destroy the entire branch

 

[Aachintya31]

Still 2-C and up, unless there is contradiction, such as the branch timeline is disjoined timeline, or the branch is not separated for infinite amount of time, or you don't actually destroy the entire branch

Just to clarify his revision also includes (Time flowing differently (slowly or faster) is not a proof that they are separate space-time ),so the debate regarding ROSAT becomes Moot.

 

[Planck69]

To be fair, the revision gives an example of how time flows differently in our own universe as reasoning for how different time flow isn't enough, but that's due to gravity differences which are almost never a reason for this in fiction. But it seems like it'll be accepted regardless so using that reasoning for the Room of Spirit and Time is rather pointless.

 

[Aachintya31]

The 12 universes are spatially separate, considered universes by the characters and cannot be travelled to physically, right?

Planck ,they can even be physically travelled as shown multiple times. (Scan1 and Scan 2)

 

[Planck69]

Planck ,they can even be physically travelled as shown multiple times. (Scan1 and Scan 2)

Did they need to open a portal to outside their universe's space or does Vados just sort of fly from U6 to U7? If it's the former, then it's not quite physical travel but if it's the latter then that's a bit of a death knell to the setting's 2-C rating.

 

[Aachintya31]

Did they need to open a portal to outside their universe's space or does Vados just sort of fly from U6 to U7? If it's the former, then it's not quite physical travel but if it's the latter then that's a bit of a death knell to the setting's 2-C rating.

No its a regular fly. Regular flight from one planet to another also has this sort of animation effect. Its a physical travel.

 

[Reiner04]

which are almost never a reason for this in fiction.

iirc RoSaT has gravity difference as well, like RoSaT has 10 times more gravity than of outside but regardless it exist outside of universe 7 from frieza statement, so yeah it's quite pointless.

Did they need to open a portal to outside their universe's space or does Vados just sort of fly from U6 to U7? If it's the former, then it's not quite physical travel but if it's the latter then that's a bit of a death knell to the setting's 2-C rating.

She and whis only seen to fly whenever they want to go somewhere, even from one dimension to another, from one universe to another, regardless of how large a distance is, and it has been quite shown multiple times that they cannot just teleport somewhere like goku's instant transmission, like whis confirming that it'll take them "specific" amount of time to travel from their planet to king Kai's planet and it cannot be further reduced, then they just seen to fly off. They only rely on flying for wherever they want to go.

 

[Planck69]

iirc RoSaT has gravity difference as well, like RoSaT has 10 times more gravity than of outside but regardless it exist outside of universe 7 from frieza statement, so yeah it's quite pointless.

I meant the gravity being the cause of the time dilation.

She and whis only seen to fly whenever they want to go somewhere, even from one dimension to another, from one universe to another, regardless of how large a distance is, and it has been quite shown multiple times that they cannot just teleport somewhere like goku's instant transmission, like who's confirming that it'll take them "specific" amount of time to travel from their planet to king Kai's planet and it cannot be further reduced, then they just seen to fly off. They only rely on flying for wherever they want to go.

Noted then.

 

[Vietthai96]

It is only show that Angels and Zeno's Guard can travel freely across universe, and probably Grand Priest, however GP use a portal instead according to anime. Kaioshin need to use teleportation to appear on Zeno palace which outside of 12 universes. While game verse is a continuity on their own, they also suggested them same thing as character who not GP, Angels require a lift between universe, either physical traveling, portal, or teleportation. Super Shenron can also do the same as Angels, Grand Priest, however considering his wish range, it is pretty obvious

 

[SSJGeminiJJ]

Did they need to open a portal to outside their universe's space or does Vados just sort of fly from U6 to U7? If it's the former, then it's not quite physical travel but if it's the latter then that's a bit of a death knell to the setting's 2-C rating.

I don't think the actual method of transition between two universes has ever been shown onscreen before and all that's been shown is them flying through the universes themselves, although in episode 53 when Whis goes to the Kaioshin Realm (a place outside the "living" universe) they very clearly depict him creating some sort of spacial tear between the universe and the Kaioshin Realm to enter it.

 

[Reiner04]

It is only show that Angels and Zeno's Guard can travel freely across universe, and probably Grand Priest, however GP use a portal instead according to anime. Kaioshin need to use teleportation to appear on Zeno palace which outside of 12 universes. While game verse is a continuity on their own, they also suggested them same thing as character who not GP, Angels require a lift between universe, either physical traveling, portal, or teleportation. Super Shenron can also do the same as Angels, Grand Priest, however considering his wish range, it is pretty obvious

Grand priest has shown the ability to create portals and clearly uses it whenever wherever he wants to appear in all of 12 universes, gods and Goku being capable of instantly going or teleporting somewhere has nothing to do with whis, whis on the other hand has never shown such ability but lore has contradicted it much enough, he has been shown to not to be capable of going anywhere instantly, so if he has been capable of creating portals then him saying he cannot travel somewhere instantly is just straight wrong. So there is clear difference. Also that all universes are just quoted affected by timetravel.

 

[Vietthai96]

Grand priest has shown the ability to create portals and clearly uses it whenever wherever he wants to appear in all of 12 universes, gods and Goku being capable of instantly going or teleporting somewhere has nothing to do with whis, whis on the other hand has never shown such ability but lore has contradicted it much enough, he has been shown to not to be capable of going anywhere instantly, so if he has been capable of creating portals then him saying he cannot travel somewhere instantly is just straight wrong. So there is clear difference. Also that all universes are just quoted affected by timetravel.

idk what the hell you talking at this point

 

[Reiner04]

idk what the hell you talking at this point

What Grandpriest and kai's did has nothing to do with whis, if this can shorten things?

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

I agree with Low 2-C for the entirety of the timeline I suppose, unless some other information comes to light.

 

[Aachintya31]

I don't think the actual method of transition between two universes has ever been shown onscreen before and all that's been shown is them flying through the universes themselves, although in episode 53 when Whis goes to the Kaioshin Realm (a place outside the "living" universe) they very clearly depict him creating some sort of spacial tear between the universe and the Kaioshin Realm to enter it.

Whis stated it would take him 2 days to reach there.Looks like you are cherry picking scenes to prove a point.

 

[SSJGeminiJJ]

Whis stated it would take him 2 days to reach there.Looks like you are cherry picking scenes to prove a point.

And? How long he takes to get to the end of the universe has no correlation to what's actually shown onscreen about how he leaves the universe after getting there. Looks like you're making red herrings to prove a point.

 

[Planck69]

Whis stated it would take him 2 days to reach there.Looks like you are cherry picking scenes to prove a point.

That....doesn't change anything though?

 

[Aachintya31]

well it proves that physical travel is possible. That's why they opted to take help of shin who has the power of teleportation much like grand priest

 

[SSJGeminiJJ]

Just because he has to physically travel across the universe to reach its end before moving to the next place doesn't change the fact it's shown crystal clear that he needed to create a spatial tear to leave it and doesn't just regularly fly between them, something that's never shown at all.

 

[Reiner04]

And? How long he takes to get to the end of the universe has no correlation to what's actually shown onscreen about how he leaves the universe after getting there. Looks like you're making red herrings to prove a point.

What has been shown on screen are the things to take off screen if happened passively, a character travelling from one point to the end of the universe and then shown to be traveling in the another universe through same means will have it all over passively. Saying that he "teleported" in the middle, which he could have done in the very start, or created a "portal" which again he could have done in very start to reach a place instantly but didn't because can't already evident things. You saying he did something off from what "passively" has been shown needs more proof. Rather it'll take him "2 days" and it cannot be "shorten" down as per context and what beerus said speaks itself.

 

[Aachintya31]

it's shown crystal clear that he needed to create a spatial tear to leave it and doesn't just regularly fly between them, something that's never shown at all.

Some Deities have the power of teleportation while some don't. Zeno and his guards ,Angels Like whis and vados travel physically, while others like supreme kai and Grand priest use teleportation.

How long he takes to get to the end of the universe has no correlation to what's actually shown onscreen

He blatantly says it would take him 2 days at his speed to reach the grand priest palace physically.

 

[Reiner04]

He blatantly says it would take him 2 days at his speed to reach the grand priest palace physically.

It clearly means he is talking about physical means of travelling from Universe 7 to zeno palace, because if he has used teleportation or portal creation to reach off to zeno palace then "2 days" becomes pointless to talk about

 

[SSJGeminiJJ]

What has been shown on screen are the things to take off screen if happened passively, a character travelling from one point to the end of the universe and then shown to be traveling in the another universe through same means will have it all over passively. Saying that he "teleported" in the middle, which he could have done in the very start, or created a "portal" which again he could have done in very start to reach a place instantly but didn't because can't already evident things. You saying he did something off from what "passively" has been shown needs more proof. Rather it'll take him "2 days" and it cannot be "shorten" down as per context and what beerus said speaks itself.

Who said anything about teleportation or a portal ability? The idea is that he creates a tear in space at the end of the universe to leave it, as he very clearly does. That doesn't equate to having portal hax that can arbitrarily determine any destination, what Whis does here is similar to the tears in space they created to leave the Rosat or Black's rift to another universe, not portal hax like what you describe.

Some Deities have the power of teleportation while some don't. Zeno and his guards ,Angels Like whis and vados travel physically, while others like supreme kai and Grand priest use teleportation.

He blatantly says it would take him 2 days at his speed to reach the grand priest palace physically.

It was never the idea that he used any form of teleportation, and how long it takes him to travel across the universe's space is irrelevant to the method of how he leave the universe itself, where its even shown what he does to do so isn't a form of physical travel.

 

[Reiner04]

The idea is that he creates a tear in space at the end of the universe to leave it,

Evidence?

 

[SSJGeminiJJ]

Evidence?

It's the first scene of the video posted. He creates a tear in space in which you can literally even see the outer space and stars of the "living" universe through as it was open momentarily before the Kaioshin Realm's space subsequently closes back up on it.

 

[Reiner04]

It's the first scene of the video posted. He creates a tear in space in which you can literally even see the outer space and stars of the "living" universe through as it was open momentarily before the Kaioshin Realm's space subsequently closes back up on it.

No, we are seeing him entering U 10, nothing more nothing less.

 

[SSJGeminiJJ]

No, we are seeing him entering U 10, nothing more nothing less.

Yes that is indeed him entering U10, but the detail in question here is how he does so, which is shown to be appearing through a hole in space between it and the living universe (the latter is literally visible through the hole before it closes back on itself) which subsequently is closed back up by the space of the Kai Realm after he's gone through it, not via just flying there normally.

 

[Reiner04]

Yes that is indeed him entering U10, but the detail in question here is how he does so, which is shown to be appearing through a hole in space between it and the living universe (the latter is literally visible through the hole before it closes back on itself) which subsequently is closed back up by the space of the Kai Realm after he's gone through it, not via just flying there normally.

That’s not really a hole in space, if he is entering another 3D space then it is bound to happen like that, it has nothing to do with him breaching the space he is entering if it's accessible to enter, how else it can be portrayed but the way it is? His aura always covers him wherever he goes, this is same. He is not entering some planet or some city that we can trace his movements, no. He is entering an universe, outside it is nothing, so we can only see him entering and leaving the universe but cannot find traces of his path.

 

[SSJGeminiJJ]

That’s not really a hole in space, if he is entering another 3D space then it is bound to happen like that, it has nothing to do with him breaching the space he is entering if it's accessible to enter, how else it can be portrayed but the way it is? His aura always covers him wherever he goes, this is same. He is not entering some planet or some city that we can trace his movements, no. He is entering an universe, outside it is nothing, so we can only see him entering and leaving the universe but cannot find traces of his path.

Since when does physical movement in general, let alone the aura of Whis's staff (which is whitish/light purple sparkles or whatever), generate dark spots with star-like objects in the background that close up on themselves? Not to mention the fact of how completely different the hole's nature in how it contracts on itself is to the aura of his staff dispersing. And it's not just nothingness outside or around him though, you can literally see the expanse of the Kaioshin Realm's space in all directions beyond.

 

[Reiner04]

Since when does physical movement in general, let alone the aura of Whis's staff (which is whitish/light purple sparkles or whatever), generate dark spots with star-like objects in the background that close up on themselves? Let alone the fact of how completely different the hole's nature in how it contracts on itself is to the aura of his staff dispersing. And it's not just nothingness outside or around him though, you can literally see the expanse of the Kaioshin Realm's space is all directions beyond.

It's not a hole and colour of aura that surrounding whis and the aura we can can see when he enters U 10 is entirely same actually. It's purplish, pinkish, white.

 

[Reiner04]

Also, i don't think minor visuals is helping the case anyway, the point that he can travel from one universe to another physically speaks itself, staff decision won't be affected over visual representation of entering or leaving a universe which itself barely or non at all supports the claim that is being made. Arguing over it is pretty pointless.

 

[SSJGeminiJJ]

It's not a hole and colour of aura that surrounding whis and the aura we can can see when he enters U 10 is entirely same actually. It's purplish, pinkish, white.'s

Whis's aura:

With an outward dissipation/dispersion (like any other aura:

Compared to the hole behind them:

A completely different color, which resembles the outer space of the living universe and is literally complete with stars visible through it.

And which goes away completely independent of and after his aura had already dispersed, and unlike the aura dissipating outwards, literally contracts in on and closes itself and get replaced back by the space of the Kaioshin Realm, exactly how other spatial holes in DB have done so.

These are clearly not the same things dude.

 

[Planck69]

There's little point to this when the issue with the timeline more or less kills the idea of 2-C dead.

 

[Tarang123]

There's little point to this when the issue with the timeline more or less kills the idea of 2-C dead.

Which issue with the timeline?

 

[Reiner04]

A completely different color, which resembles the outer space of the living universe and is literally complete with stars visible through it.

There is no livin' universe outside of U 10 tho. Not unless it's another universe.
This is more or less visual depiction of him entering the universe.

 

[Reiner04]

Which issue with the timeline?

A quilted multiverse on which Dragonball seems to function. All universes being affected with time travel, makes it pointless to assume that they're in the separate spacetime's.

 

[Tarang123]

A quilted multiverse on which Dragonball seems to function. All universes being affected with time travel, makes it pointless to assume that they're in the separate spacetime's.

Well, just as a possible counter, I'd like to bring a hypothetical scenario.

Let's imagine that there's a timeline, and inside this timeline there are several different other space-times. Said timeline is still much larger than these other space-times, though this is fairly obvious.

Would it not make sense that time-travel that creates an entirely new branch in the timeline would affect the entirety of the timeline, and therefore the multiverse as well? I don't think it would be a suitable counter to the notion of universes having their own space-time.

As for another possible piece of evidence, I mentioned near the beginning of the thread that it's stated that time flows of Universe 7 and 6 are both similar and different to the point where they have different histories to the same cosmological structures like Earth. However, someone else pointed out that the only reason this was the case was because U6 and U7 are pair universes or whatever, correct?

Would this not, in a sense, suggest that different universes are indeed closed off space-times from one another, as only pair universes have any actual similarity in their histories.

 

[Reiner04]

Would this not, in a sense, suggest that different universes are indeed closed off space-times from one another, as only pair universes have any actual similarity in their histories.

Actually no, different histories is simply a result of them being different spaces, they're not copies of each other, aside from twin one's but just different places. All universes has seprate histories because they're seprate places.

 

[Tarang123]

Actually no, different histories is simply a result of them being different spaces, they're not copies of each other, aside from twin one's but just different places. All universes has seprate histories because they're seprate places.

If two areas have two entirely different histories, they would have their own seperate flows of time. It's a different case from, say, time dilation or something where everything has the same flow of time but things change due to gravity and other bs. We know that they're at least spatially closed off. I think the fact that they have entirely different histories would imply that they're different space-time continuums

 

[SSJGeminiJJ]

There is no livin' universe outside of U 10 tho. Not unless it's another universe.
This is more or less visual depiction of him entering the universe.

He's going from either the living universe of U7 or the living universe of U10 to the Kaioshin Realm of U10 (a place established to be outside of the living universe). Doesn't really make a difference which, and at any rate one of them is clearly visible through the hole where outer space and stars are visible.
That's right, specifically, a visual depiction of him entering a universe that's 1:1 with how spatial tears are depicted in DB in more than one way.