Dragon Ball Super: Universes/Timeline Tiering Revision

[Reiner04]

He's going from either the living universe of U7 or the living universe of U10 to the Kaioshin Realm of U10 (a place established to be outside of the living universe). Doesn't really make a difference which, and at any rate one of them is clearly visible through the hole where outer space and stars are visible.
That's right, specifically, a visual depiction of him entering a universe that's 1:1 with how spatial tears are depicted in DB in more than one way.

He don't, outside of livin' universe of U7 is just kaioshin realm and other parts of the U7, he will have to cross then and then he'll enter U 10, there shouldn't be any stary sky in the first place, it's just a visual depiction of him entering the other universe with his aura, the small dots like structures aren't something to overthink when anime itself hasn't much weight it off but we are just going over minor things to point off as if it depicts something serious, he just went to another universe through flying and that's all there is.

If two areas have two entirely different histories, they would have their own seperate flows of time. It's a different case from, say, time dilation or something where everything has the same flow of time but things change due to gravity and other bs. We know that they're at least spatially closed off. I think the fact that they have entirely different histories would imply that they're different space-time continuums

I'll be honest and say that, it's not enough and we all know.

 

[Planck69]

Well, just as a possible counter, I'd like to bring a hypothetical scenario.

Let's imagine that there's a timeline, and inside this timeline there are several different other space-times. Said timeline is still much larger than these other space-times, though this is fairly obvious.

Would it not make sense that time-travel that creates an entirely new branch in the timeline would affect the entirety of the timeline, and therefore the multiverse as well? I don't think it would be a suitable counter to the notion of universes having their own space-time.

This is built on the premise of the universes being space-times to begin with.

As for another possible piece of evidence, I mentioned near the beginning of the thread that it's stated that time flows of Universe 7 and 6 are both similar and different to the point where they have different histories to the same cosmological structures like Earth. However, someone else pointed out that the only reason this was the case was because U6 and U7 are pair universes or whatever, correct?

Would this not, in a sense, suggest that different universes are indeed closed off space-times from one another, as only pair universes have any actual similarity in their histories.

They have different histories yeah but that's cause they're different places.

 

[SSJGeminiJJ]

He don't, outside of livin' universe of U7 is just kaioshin realm and other parts of the U7, he will have to cross then and then he'll enter U 10, there shouldn't be any stary sky in the first place, it's just a visual depiction of him entering the other universe with his aura, the small dots like structures aren't something to overthink when anime itself hasn't much weight it off but we are just going over minor things to point off as if it depicts something serious, he just went to another universe through flying and that's all there is..

But there is a starry sky temporarily visible in the hole shown on the other side before it contracts on itself, and this is literally completely equivalent to how other spatial tears in the DB story work. Calling something for what it is isn’t overthinking. If it walks like a duck..

It’s already been established that it has absolutely nothing to do with his aura for numerous reasons. Physically flying can not possibly cause such a phenomenon with attention to these specific details in any way.

 

[Reiner04]

But there is a starry sky temporarily visible in the hole shown on the other side before it contracts on itself

That's the point, there shouldn't have been any start sky in the first place. They travelled from one universe to another, crossing living universe, kaioshin realm, space btw and then U 10, it should has been dark but not stary.

Also, visuals, especially minor visuals aren't proof of anything unless there is additional proof/statement/evidence of it.

Also, it doesn't prove them being seprate spacetime's is another thing.

 

[Reiner04]

Also it's my sleep time, gtg.

 

[SSJGeminiJJ]

That's the point, there shouldn't have been any start sky in the first place. They travelled from one universe to another, crossing living universe, kaioshin realm, space btw and then U 10, it should has been dark but not stary.

Also, visuals, especially minor visuals aren't proof of anything unless there is additional proof/statement/evidence of it.

Also, it doesn't prove them being seprate spacetime's is another thing.

But there is, which makes sense as looking out into pure outer space will lead to seeing stars no matter the angle.

That tends to be the case when something’s ambiguous or open to interpretation on its own, that’s really not the case here where it’s crystal and 1:1 with how spatial distortions are depicted in DB to boot. But as far as additional proof goes, irregardless of space-time, the places beyond the living universe such as the Kaioshin Realm are accepted on this wiki as separate spaces/dimensions from it since Z. The Frieza statement that lead to this thread in the first place just backs it further and this all applies to the other universes by default. This is consistent with what’s shown with Whis in that scene.

Sure, it may not be evidence of a different spacetime and that wasn’t the point, but it’s the only showing of how he actually transitions between the universes, and it’s a far cry from physically flying to act as if Whis being able to travel to other universes means they’re all in one space. That was all.

 

[Reiner04]

That tends to be the case when something’s ambiguous on its own, that’s really not the case here where it’s crystal and 1:1 with how spatial distortions are depicted in DB to boot. But as far as additional proof goes, irregardless of space-time, the places beyond the living universe such as the Kaioshin Realm are accepted on this wiki as separate spaces/dimensions from it since Z. The Frieza statement that lead to this thread in the first place just backs it further and this all applies to the other universes by default. This is consistent with what’s shown with Whis in that scene

Agree to disagree then.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

I agree with Low 2-C for the entirety of the timeline I suppose, unless some other information comes to light.

I think you should at least see the counterarguments to vote, please don't be in a hurry about the verse.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

well it proves that physical travel is possible. That's why they opted to take help of shin who has the power of teleportation much like grand priest

stop pretending, physical travel is impossible, first you need a cube that travels across Universes, explained during the Universe 6 saga arc, it is shown to have a dimension that separates the two universes

on here


Is here


well here it is explained that there is a dimension that separates the Universes


now talking about the afterlife, where accessing it is impossible, unless you are dead or have permission, proving that you are separate

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

second argument, it is shown that there exists a dimension in the universe which is accessible,where the energy is so strong that it cracks all space-time and sending them to another dimension, confirmed that this dimension is outside of reality

 

[Quantu]

So what's the current staff concensus on what should be done? I see DDM has disagreed with any changes and Planck + Maverick think Low 2-C timeline makes sense?

 

[Reiner04]

So what's the current staff concensus on what should be done? I see DDM has disagreed with any changes and Planck + Maverick think Low 2-C timeline makes sense?

Agree: @Theglassman12 , @Planck69 , @Maverick_Zero_X

Disagree: @DarkDragonMedeus

 

[StrymULTRA]

well here it is explained that there is a dimension that separates the Universes

Not that big of a deal, there can be pocket dimensions which are physically separated from the main universe and yet still in the same space time, aka same 3D space still.

 

[Aachintya31]

well here it is explained that there is a dimension that separates the Universes

That doesn't imply the other universe is a separate space-time. Even the Living universe and Sacred world of kai is spatially separated yet we its the same space-time. Moreover the concept of "neutral space" where the entire U6 vs U7 took place implies there is no 5-D axis between the universes.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

That doesn't imply the other universe is a separate space-time. Even the Living universe and Sacred world of kai is spatially separated yet we its the same space-time. Moreover the concept of "neutral space" where the entire U6 vs U7 took place implies there is no 5-D axis between the universes.

Dude, you know it's not true, first that all events in other Universes are different, second, that after life there is a totally different space-time.

 

[Planck69]

Dude, you know it's not true, first that all events in other Universes are different, second, that after life there is a totally different space-time.

Events in another universe being different proves nothing. They're different places, of course they'd have different events taking place.

And asserting that the afterlife is a space-time doesn't make it one.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

Events in another universe being different proves nothing. They're different places, of course they'd have different events taking place.

And asserting that the afterlife is a space-time doesn't make it one.

it is not a statement, but it is explicit in the manga, the afterlife does not exist the concept of time.


Databook cites that there is no time in the other world




Quoting manga.

In the afterlife there is no time

さっきの超サイヤ人3ってのは heな......あの世でしか使っちゃ heダメな技なん...
間 っ て も が あ る he こ の 世 は 使 使 エ ネ ギ ー 大 き す て て 一 に ヘ ト へ に ト な ち う ......
Super Saiyan 3 is a technique that should only be used in heaven... Where there is no such thing as time, and in this world, we expend so much energy that we can run out all at once...
He says "after life", so in case someone comes along saying that there's a difference between paradise and another world, goku is talking about the metaphysical plane of the macroverse.




It is mentioned once again in this guide that another world does not have time

 

[Planck69]

it is not a statement, but it is explicit in the manga, the afterlife does not exist the concept of time.

Alternate time flow doesn't make something a disconnected space-time continuum anymore.

 

[Aachintya31]

after life there is a totally different space-time.

vsbattle considers it to be a space-time as that of universe 7. Its even a discussion rule.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

vsbattle considers it to be a space-time as that of universe 7. Its even a discussion rule.

there is of course the funny thing that this only happens with DB.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

Alternate time flow doesn't make something a disconnected space-time continuum anymore.

Lol

 

[Reiner04]

Alternate time flow doesn't make something a disconnected space-time continuum anymore.

Also, the things he is bringing has been brought up billion times and has been rejected that it's a discussion rule to not bring it up again.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

Also, the things he is bringing has been brought up billion times and has been rejected that it's a discussion rule to not bring it up again.

in fact, it was rejected for misinterpretation.

 

[Aachintya31]

there is of course the funny thing that this only happens with DB.

in fact, it was rejected for misinterpretation.in fact, it was rejected for misinterpretation.

there are good enough reasons for it. you can check many previous threads. Arguing something rejected multiple time doesn't make sense as its derailing

 

[Vietthai96]

Like many have said, U7 have better evidences to be 2-C than the 12 universes bruhh

 

[Omegabronic]

Probably you misunderstands my point, i said about space-time in general not just DB. But anyway, a small space-time being a subset of another space-time. By your default assumption, we should nuke tier 1 onward.

explain? i don't get it

Thus, there is no reason to default assume that a space-time need to be separate by default.

how did you reach that conclusion?

And when you said about evidence, i believe Ottavio already posted it being a subspace of U7 and belong to an area inside the Macrocosm.

1 ottavio concedede already and 2 that is likely talking about and access point, and even if it isn't it is talking about being inside the living universe, since that is the area being talked about in that part of the guide, which contradicts the manga and then we don't use it

Lastly, no, separate dimension doesn't automatically mean separate space-time, because you can well have two dimension separated by space but being constrain under the same time axis, time flow at different rate don't mean different space-time

if that's so, then the downgrade happens either way since there would be now no proof at all that alternate space times are affect by time travel in db, so it helps either way

Also for the sake of arguing, based on your logic, that space-time should be separate by default, then ROSAT should be entire outside of the timeline which contain 12 universes, the neutral space between universe, zeno realm, etc......which make no sense annd contradicted by many

it makes no sense because? contradicted by what?

Proof??

what do you want me to do? show a scene of every time the word "universe" is said, regardless as i explained above, being referred to the macrocosm is not much relevant since it would contradict the guide either way

it is not a statement, but it is explicit in the manga, the afterlife does not exist the concept of time.


Databook cites that there is no time in the other world




Quoting manga.

In the afterlife there is no time

さっきの超サイヤ人3ってのは heな......あの世でしか使っちゃ heダメな技なん...
間 っ て も が あ る he こ の 世 は 使 使 エ ネ ギ ー 大 き す て て 一 に ヘ ト へ に ト な ち う ......
Super Saiyan 3 is a technique that should only be used in heaven... Where there is no such thing as time, and in this world, we expend so much energy that we can run out all at once...
He says "after life", so in case someone comes along saying that there's a difference between paradise and another world, goku is talking about the metaphysical plane of the macroverse.




It is mentioned once again in this guide that another world does not have time

dude, stop, i told you already that this is derailing, we don't accept it as a different space time inside the macrocosm, you need to have it accepted first and remove the rule before using it as an argument

 

[StrymULTRA]

Dude, you know it's not true, first that all events in other Universes are different

This happens in Type 1 Multiverse which is High 3-A at best.

 

[RedReaper616]

The RoSaT Subspace scan should have ended this a while ago. It specifically is noted to be a Subspace of the Universe. Mind you, to reaffirm something, I went and checked the actual Wish Granolah made, because something seemed off about the thread.

And the Eternal Dragon states that the wording of Granolah’s Wish means he didn’t include the Kai’s/Otherworld. “The Gods.”

Meaning that, yes, the interpretation that “the Universe” only meant the MORTAL UNIVERSE is actually correct here.

Thus Subspaces would logically be ignored, as they are alternate dimensions.

Edit: Also, travel between Universes is impossible for Mortals. This is why Hit desired the Cube, as it would grant him access to Multiversal Travel.

 

[Reiner04]

The RoSaT Subspace scan should have ended this a while ago. It specifically is noted to be a Subspace of the Universe. Mind you, to reaffirm something, I went and checked the actual Wish Granolah made, because something seemed off about the thread.

And the Eternal Dragon states that the wording of Granolah’s Wish means he didn’t include the Kai’s/Otherworld. “The Gods.”

Meaning that, yes, the interpretation that “the Universe” only meant the MORTAL UNIVERSE is actually correct here.

Thus Subspaces would logically be ignored, as they are alternate dimensions.

Edit: Also, travel between Universes is impossible for Mortals. This is why Hit desired the Cube, as it would grant him access to Multiversal Travel.

Not including the God's doesn't means not including the heaven. This was discussed in previous thread, dead ppls, souls, spirits and many species that aren't God's lives in the Otherworld as well.

 

[RedReaper616]

Not including the God's doesn't means not including the heaven. This was discussed in previous thread, dead ppls, souls, spirits and many species that aren't God's lives in the Otherworld as well.

Except this doesn’t actually make sense based on context. The Dragon is referring to the location specified creating a limit on the beings counted.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

The RoSaT Subspace scan should have ended this a while ago. It specifically is noted to be a Subspace of the Universe. Mind you, to reaffirm something, I went and checked the actual Wish Granolah made, because something seemed off about the thread.

And the Eternal Dragon states that the wording of Granolah’s Wish means he didn’t include the Kai’s/Otherworld. “The Gods.”

Meaning that, yes, the interpretation that “the Universe” only meant the MORTAL UNIVERSE is actually correct here.

Thus Subspaces would logically be ignored, as they are alternate dimensions.

Edit: Also, travel between Universes is impossible for Mortals. This is why Hit desired the Cube, as it would grant him access to Multiversal Travel.

said these same things in my comment, they literally ignored it, they want nerfs for nothing, their interpretation is so wrong.

 

[Lord_Farquaad69420]

Like many have said, U7 have better evidences to be 2-C than the 12 universes bruhh

we should make a crt getting the universes to 2C for fun

 

[Aachintya31]

And the Eternal Dragon states that the wording of Granolah’s Wish means he didn’t include the Kai’s/Otherworld. “The Gods.”

Use of term Gods automatically includes sacred world of kai, but yeah we still have heavan

 

[Reiner04]

Except this doesn’t actually make sense based on context. The Dragon is referring to the location specified creating a limit on the beings counted.

I actually don't get the point tbh, there is only one context that "granolah will become strongest in the Universe aside from God's" as what dragonBall's can grant have limitations but their range covers upto pretty far.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Mortals not being able to reach other universes is the same issue as Goku not being able to fly to Afterlife but only teleport.

And besides in the manga the teleportation already shown its limits and cannot bring you anywhere in the universe either.

 

[Reiner04]

Strongest God resides in the living universe gg.

 

[RedReaper616]

Regardless, the context of the sentence itself literally means that the Wish only covered the Mortal Universe, as the conversation went:

“Turn me into the greatest warrior in the Universe!”

“The greatest warrior in the Universe? So you wish to be the most powerful life-form apart of the Gods themselves?”

“Yes!”

The phrasing by the Eternal Dragon dictates Granolah’s specified location limited him to just be stronger than everyone but the Gods/Kai’s, here.

That’s how the sentences are composed.

So other dimensions/Subspaces within U7 aren’t “within the Universe” in the context of “within the MORTAL UNIVERSE.” Which has been true since OG DB, as it is noted to be a dimensionally separate plane.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

All of Universe 7.

 

[Reiner04]

Turn me into the greatest warrior in the Universe!

And still staying weaker than someone in the universe like frieza?

The greatest warrior in the Universe? So you wish to be the most powerful life-form apart of the Gods themselves?”

“Yes!”

If you're using it eliminate Otherworld or anything in the U7 then keep in mind, the strongest God resides in the living universe, and alot of life forms that aren't God's resides in other world, so that means the wish is not fulfilled and the reasoning behind eliminating Otherworld because it contains gods then you're also specifying the livin'world should be eliminated as well, as it contains the strongest God.

So other dimensions/Subspaces within U7 aren’t “within the Universe”

They're in the universe, if you're saying that RoSaT was part of the universe in anyway then that indicates that frieza should have been counted as the part of the universe as well.

Aside from all this, the term "universe" has been long stopped referring to just livin' universe ever since 12 universes has been introduced, that's quite actually more of quoting things out from the lore. Living universe belongs to Z, Kai, Universe 7 belongs to super.

 

[Aachintya31]

All of Universe 7.

Thank you fellow Neutral knowledgeable member