Dragon Ball Super: Universes/Timeline Tiering Revision

[Theglassman12]

@Tarang123 not really, the different history is elaborated on the fact that specific universes are mirrors of one another, where Universe 6 and 7 both have namekians and saiyans, but it doesn't mean they're alternate space times, just that one behaves differently. It's the same as having two different tribes in a remote location who operate differently from one another, plus the fact there's no mention that U6's flow of time is completely different than U7's doesn't help either.

 

[Omegabronic]

was writing a response, but glassman summarized pretty nicely

 

[Tarang123]

@Tarang123 not really, the different history is elaborated on the fact that specific universes are mirrors of one another, where Universe 6 and 7 both have namekians and saiyans, but it doesn't mean they're alternate space times, just that one behaves differently. It's the same as having two different tribes in a remote location who operate differently from one another, plus the fact there's no mention that U6's flow of time is completely different than U7's doesn't help either.

Interesting point. I’ll stay neutral anyway

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Here is the comment:

https://vsbattles.com/threads/all-of-dragon-ball-cosmology-revision-staff-only.115556/post-3721397

Thank you, i shall now I'll quote it here.

AKM sama: Would you say a multiverse that is a timeline consisting of 12 Low 2-C universes is sufficient evidence for it to be Low 1-C?
Me: No.
Allow me to explain.
We have three dimensions of space, which we could (in a simplified version) model as RxRxR, that is the cartesian product of three infinite real number lines.
Time we could model as a single infinite real numbers line R.
A timeline is then (RxRxR)xR i.e. space x time.
Now, for multiple timelines, we need to operate in a 5-dimensional space. In the 5th dimension, they would all lay beside each other. Let's say we have 12 timelines, with their positions in the 5th dimensions being 1,2,3,4,..., 12. {1,2,3,4,...,12} is the set of those positions.
The multiverse consisting of 12 timelines would then be described by {1,2,3,4,...,12}x(RxRxR)xR.
In other words the cartesian product of the locations of each timeline, with one timeline.

Let's compare this to a timeline consisting of 12 universes. One universe is again RxRxR.
Those universes are in a multiverse. We again model their positions as {1,2,3,4,...,12}, just that this time those positions wouldn't be across the 5th dimensional axis, but the 4th one. (Which is really just arbitrary numbering)
So the multiverse is {1,2,3,4,..,12}x(RxRxR), in other words, a universe for each of the 12 positions.
Now let's make a timeline out of that. How do we do that? We again multiply (take the cartesian product) with the time axis. The same way we previously went from universe to timeline. The time axis is again modelled as R.
What we get is Rx{1,2,3,4,...,12}x(RxRxR). That is in mathematical terms a timeline consisting of 12 universes.
Let's make sure we got that right: We wanted Low 2-C universes, i.e. entire spacetimes. Are those entire spacetimes? Yes! Because the time dimension we added is equally applied to all universes. We, for example, have a point that is 5 seconds in the future of universe 3 at the coordinates (0,1,15). That point is in the construction above {5}x{3}x(0,1,15).
So those construction meets all demands. A timeline consisting of multiple universal spacetimes.

Let's compare those two constructs now.
Multiverse from 12 timelines was: {1,2,3,4,...,12}x(RxRxR)xR
Timeline of 12 Universes was: Rx{1,2,3,4,...,12}x(RxRxR)

Notice how those look almost the same? That's because they are! They are in fact only a rotation away from each other. The way the are rotated has no particular meaning, though. It's only result of how we happened to construct it. It's a difference equivalent to having north up on the map or having east up on the map.
If we rotate the constructs so that their time and space dimensions each fit to each other and do the same with their position in the multiverse we get that they are exactly the same. I.e. just write the universes number first, then write space and lastly write which time it is and you get exactly the same constructs.

Sooo... yeah, the two constructs are in fact exactly the same thing. So the object in question is just a regular 2-C Multiverse.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I have too much on my plate atm, but I disagree with revising the DBS tier scaling for reasons repeated far too many times.

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

no? they different space times in relation to universe 7, yet they can be accessed, what stops other timelines of doing the same? it requires less assumptions than the db local multiverse being a very specific kind of timeline

Wdym assuming Universes are Low 2-C on default making an assumption that RoSaT can be from another timeline is simply head canon

@LuffyRuffy46307 the infinite universe like I said has nothing to do with my question, I'm asking for other evidence the mainline series has alternate space times within each universe, I literally explained this in my last post.

@godofice I mean, not anymore when the last thread got rid of the RoSaT being within U7, not only that but last time I checked the RoSaT is the size of a planet, which wouldn't even qualify for the standards on full on space-time continuums and would at best be a pocket dimension. Without that one evidence the universes would just be downgraded to 3-A.

RoSaT isn’t apart of universe 7 anymore but it’s still inside the timeline the thread made it clear especially at the end and it still qualifies for a space time continumm it’s just destroying wouldnt qualify for Low 2-C and only planetary

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Agree with DDM, these reasons have been debunked before. People are forgetting entire point of RoSaT was to prove U1 to U12 have different time flows. Thus the overarching timeline is 2C. RoSaTs location or size has jackshit to do with anything. Only important part is time flows are separated.

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

Agree with DDM, these reasons have been debunked before. People are forgetting entire point of RoSaT was to prove U1 to U12 have different time flows. Thus the overarching timeline is 2C. RoSaTs location or size has jackshit to do with anything. Only important part is time flows are separated.

Yup

 

[Omegabronic]

Wdym assuming Universes are Low 2-C on default making an assumption that RoSaT can be from another timeline is simply head canon

not when we have evidence against it, aka trunks time travel affecting all other universes in the timeline

RoSaT isn’t apart of universe 7 anymore but it’s still inside the timeline the thread made it clear especially at the end

when? what is the evidence for it?

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

not when we have evidence against it, aka trunks time travel affecting all other universes in the timeline

Context is important.
Said timeline is a hypertimeline, an overarching timeline.

 

[Omegabronic]

Agree with DDM, these reasons have been debunked before. People are forgetting entire point of RoSaT was to prove U1 to U12 have different time flows. Thus the overarching timeline is 2C. RoSaTs location or size has jackshit to do with anything. Only important part is time flows are separated.

well the thing is, without it being inside universe 7 anymore now we have no reason to believe that it was affect by time travel, so now the argument for the universes to be separate space times doesn't work anymore

 

[Omegabronic]

Context is important.
Said timeline is a hypertimeline, an overarching timeline.

you say that because? read my comment above

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

well the thing is, without it being inside universe 7 anymore now we have no reason to believe that it was affect by time travel, so now the argument for the universes to be separate space times doesn't work anymore

Its still inside timeline.
Also you cannot reverse the burden of proof here.
Onus would be on you to prove major parts of cosmological structures would be completely missing from alternative timelines. Timelines don't work like that. Such claims aren't made ever. And If they are made, those require overwhelmingly positive evidence.

For example , If tomorrow we find an alternative timeline to our own IRL timeline/universe, you cannot make the positive claim that our solar system is completely missing by default in said alternative universe without stunning proof. Especially when almost all events in both timelines are almost indentical with only few differences. That's the point of a standard branching multiverse, different circumstances make up different events, what ifs. But still same.

 

[Omegabronic]

Its still inside timeline.

says who?

Also you cannot reverse the burden of proof here.
Onus would be on you to prove major parts of cosmological structures would be completely missing from alternative timelines. Timelines don't work like that. Such claims aren't made ever. And If they are made, those require overwhelmingly positive evidence.

the rosats are not parts of the structure, there is no reason to believe they are, they separated, closed off space times small dimensions, the burden is to proof that they are part of the timeline in the first place when nothing suggests such

or example , If tomorrow we find an alternative timeline to our own IRL timeline/universe, you cannot make the positive claim that our solar system is completely missing by default in said alternative universe without stunning proof. Especially when almost all events in both timelines are almost indentical with only few differences. That's the point of a standard branching multiverse, different circumstances make up different events, what ifs. But still same.

you see the situation is not the same at all, the solar system is part of the timeline, it is in the 3d part of it, the rosat? no reason nor evidence, it is a closed off alternate small space time, the reason it was accepted as not a part of the universe is the same it wouldn't be part of the timeline, not proof of it

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Also, I thought it was only agreed that RoSaT existed outside the living world, not that it existed outside Universe 7. When Buu Vice Shouted himself out of RoSaT, he landed in Kami's Lookout. When Vegeta smashed the RoSaT forcing the need to restore/rebuild it, Vegeta also landed on Kami's Lookout. There are still other points outside of RoSaT such as Zamasu merging with time and space which I still agree with.

 

[Aachintya31]

Also, I thought it was only agreed that RoSaT existed outside the living world, not that it existed outside Universe 7. When Buu Vice Shouted himself out of RoSaT, he landed in Kami's Lookout. When Vegeta smashed the RoSaT forcing the need to restore/rebuild it, Vegeta also landed on Kami's Lookout.

The evidence from latest DBS manga suggests it exists outside the macrocosm which we discussed in this thread.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

says who?

You have evidence to contrary? Whatever you are posting so far is not what you think it is.

the rosats are not parts of the structure, there is no reason to believe they are, they separated, closed off space times small dimensions, the burden is to proof that they are part of the timeline in the first place when nothing suggests such

Where is it said that it is externally located w.r.t to the timeline??
Being cutoff would be inline with it's seperate spatio-temporal nature, not a completely different location beyond timelines. At best making it not a part of U7, which alone is debatable, more cogent explanation is that it's just a seperate space-time in inside U7.
As DDM explained.

you see the situation is not the same at all, the solar system is part of the timeline, it is in the 3d part of it, the rosat? no reason nor evidence, it is a closed off alternate small space time, the reason it was accepted as not a part of the universe is the same it wouldn't be part of the timeline, not proof of it

Closed off doesn't mean off location.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

The evidence from latest DBS manga suggests it exists outside the macrocosm which we discussed in this thread.

How the hell this passed? Bruh. Another thing that needs fixing.

 

[Reiner04]

Following.

 

[Aachintya31]

How the hell this passed? Bruh. Another thing that needs fixing.

you and @omegabronic needs to calm down.
That thread was close to completion upon which i would have made this thread.
The OP here is just badly presented.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

The evidence from latest DBS manga suggests it exists outside the macrocosm which we discussed in this thread.

Outside the Macrocosm simply means it exists outside of the living world, and outside the Other World. And worst case scenario is it would more or less be like a second planet of the Kais. It doesn't mean it's outside Universe 7 as even that still contains things more than just "The Macrocosm". There is still space and time outside that Giant Bubble like globe containing the Macrocosm.

 

[Reiner04]

How the hell this passed? Bruh. Another thing that needs fixing.

Evidence is direct for it and furthermore, all supporters reached clear understanding that it being Inside U7 has no evidence further being contradicted.

 

[Omegabronic]

Also, I thought it was only agreed that RoSaT existed outside the living world, not that it existed outside Universe 7. When Buu Vice Shouted himself out of RoSaT, he landed in Kami's Lookout. When Vegeta smashed the RoSaT forcing the need to restore/rebuild it, Vegeta also landed on Kami's Lookout.

the door connects the two dimensions, i don't see hoe they being able to open a rift to go back proves anything

There are still other points outside of RoSaT such as Zamasu merging with time and space which I still agree with.

btw, what are the arguments for him to have fused with space time? i don't quite remember

You have evidence to contrary? Whatever you are posting so far is not what you think it is.

other space times are not inside each other without proof, the basic assumption is that they are out of timeline simply because they are other space times

Where is it said that it is externally located w.r.t to the timeline??
Being cutoff would be inline with it's seperate spatio-temporal nature, not a completely different location beyond timelines.

a separate space time is assumed to not be inside another space time, it needs proof of it being inside

At best making it not a part of U7, which alone is debatable

it was accepted

, more cogent explanation is that it's just a seperate space-time in inside U7.
As DDM explained.

why? another space time wouldn't be logically inside another without evidence, it requires less assumptions to just say that it is a separated space time

Closed off doesn't mean off location.

it does when combined with the numerous "it is another dimension with its own flow of time" statements

 

[Omegabronic]

Outside the Macrocosm simply means it exists outside of the living world, and outside the Other World. And worst case scenario is it would more or less be like a second planet of the Kais. It doesn't mean it's outside Universe 7 as even that still contains things more than just "The Macrocosm". There is still space and time outside that Giant Bubble like globe containing the Macrocosm.

the thing, there is no evidence for it being inside the timeline or in the macrocosm at all, without evidence separated space times would not inside another by logic

 

[Tarang123]

It takes more evidence to prove that the RoSAT isn’t part of the entire timeline, rather than just U7 itself. It just seems like common sense to assume that everything is part of the timeline

 

[Reiner04]

I think the evidence/reasoning for it is that ROSAT was introduced before the multiverse Was introduced in the Dragonball...

 

[Omegabronic]

It takes more evidence to prove that the RoSAT isn’t part of the entire timeline, rather than just U7 itself. It just seems like common sense to assume that everything is part of the timeline

ok but why? a space time not being inside another is the most basic assumption in tier 2, i don't see how it makes more sense

 

[Reiner04]

It takes more evidence to prove that the RoSAT isn’t part of the entire timeline, rather than just U7 itself.

Only if it's not have been another spacetime, yes.

 

[Tarang123]

Only if it's not have been another spacetime, yes.

But again, what evidence would suggest that it’s not part of the entire timeline.

 

[Tarang123]

ok but why? a space time not being inside another is the most basic assumption in tier 2, i don't see how it makes more sense

Because in context of DB everything in DBS happens in one timeline. It seems more logical than assuming that there’s some dimension randomly outside timeline

 

[Reiner04]

But again, what evidence would suggest that it’s not part of the entire timeline.

Timeline is by default considered to be a spacetime continuum and it's common sense for another spacetime continuum to be not a part of it. It takes more assumption to say more than one Spacetime continuum are a part of single timeline then for them being different.

 

[Reiner04]

Because in context of DB everything in DBS happens in one timeline. It seems more logical than assuming that there’s some dimension randomly outside timeline

The reasoning seems fine but it has to be accepted by everyone as I proposed in the previous thread. ROSAT is a part of U7 because multiverse wasn't established and it is a part of Timeline because as per lore most things happened within timeline but no one besides me think that the reasoning is enough.

 

[Tarang123]

Timeline is by default considered to be a spacetime continuum and it's common sense for another spacetime continuum to be not a part of it. It takes more assumption to say more than one Spacetime continuum are a part of single timeline then for them being different.

Prior to this we already assumed that the universes were separate space-times. Yet there was not a single argument that they somehow existed outside the timeline. This doesn’t seem like an adequate argument

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

the thing, there is no evidence for it being inside the timeline or in the macrocosm at all, without evidence separated space times would not inside another by logic

The only structure that is explicitly outside the timeline is World of Void and Zeno's palace.

Prove that RoSaT has similar lore.

 

[Tarang123]

The only structure that is explicitly outside the timeline is World of Void and Zeno's palace.

Prove that RoSaT has similar lore.

Even Zeno’s palace seems to be part of the timeline, as there are multiple zenos and stuff like that.

 

[Reiner04]

Prior to this we already assumed that the universes were separate space-times

Because we assumed ROSAT is a part of the universe based off what I suggested above got contradicted later on, and same suggested for it being inside the Timeline, point is, who agrees besides me?

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

The only structure that is explicitly outside the timeline is World of Void and Zeno's palace.

Prove that RoSaT has similar lore.

I don’t even think Zenos palace is even outside the timeline besides the WOV since it’s outside of space and time

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Even Zeno’s palace seems to be part of the timeline, as there are multiple zenos and stuff like that.

True, I stand corrected

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

Even Zeno’s palace seems to be part of the timeline, as there are multiple zenos and stuff like that.

all Universes is outside zeno's palace, it seems to be a superior dimension or something, Daishinkan looks at the Universes through a type of Living Water in layers

 

[Tarang123]

Because we assumed ROSAT is a part of the universe based off what I suggested above got contradicted later on, and same suggested for it being inside the Timeline, point is, who agrees besides me?

The point being that seperate space-times were still perfectly okay with being part of the timeline. Why would ROSAT be any different. It's only referred to as another dimension disconnected from U7. Seems like a stretch to then connect that to the entirety of the timeline