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Dragon Ball Super Revision Thread

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Perhaps we should scale from the top tiers down, since MFTL largely comes from Beerus.

Besides finishing up Watagash's speed.
 
This would make...

everyone from the U6 saga onwards MFTL+, right? Also piccolo and buu in this arc scale.
 
I would appreciate if we could all try to stay on topic regarding how to properly upgrade the tournament of power characters.

In addition, given how controversial this topic is, it might be best to make it staff only, in order to stay on the safe side.
 
@Ant, the topic is actually speed right now.

We're going from least controversial to more controversial to ensure the effectiveness of the thread, once speed is done, we'll talk about the power of the characters.
 
Speed is tied to power, though. Because Super Saiyan God Goku is Massively FTL+ scaling from Beerus, and when we begin scaling his Base to SSG, then Watagash's feat (While good on its own) becomes irrelevant.
 
Okay.

However, if the thread starts to get out of control, or severely off-track, you will likely have to close it, and create a new one in the staff forum that summarises the conclusions thus far.

In addition, it may be necessary to delete any offensive messages.
 
It's a travel speed feat, so i don't know if it scales to normal speed or it is alright to scale it to Gohan, unless he was 3-B+ at the time and then became 3-A as Ultimate.
 
We have always scaled travel speed feats to combat in Dragon Ball and most everything else here. I don't see why we're suddenly bringing that up as an argument.
 
Well, you know that I am doubtful about flying in straight lines without obstacles, but we are definitely not in a good position to deal with that issue right now, so just continue scaling from flight speed as usual for the moment please.
 
Good luck stopping at the correct Galaxy let alone the correct Planet when you are flying across a universe at quadrillions of times the speed of light if you are incapable of reacting at similar speed.
 
@AMM

Yeah, you're right, except for the fact that there have been seems all over DBZ where they momentarily outrun blasts (see Raditz vs Goku, Frieza's Death Saucers against SSGoku and iirc Goku vs Piccolo). Not only that, but reacting to light speed attacks and dodging them as they fire would require Light Speed reactions and movement to get out of the way completely. DBZ characters dodge blasts by moving body lengths away. If you were to dodge a bullet after it fired from the gun, which means it's not aimdodging btw, and get out of the way of the bullet with distance being at least the size of your body, then you have to have super speed, no way around it. The only way for you to dodge shit without that kind of speed is through aim dodging, moving away from them after they fire is reacting to the projectile itself (meaning you have those reactions necessary) and moving out of it's path completely would mean you have super speed. Yeah, it would be different if the attack took time to travel to you and you dodged out of the way from far off-- but DBZ characters don't usually have that kind of distance on each other when firing blasts like that, and even then, Light moves pretty fast, so reacting to a light projectile anywhere that isn't a huge (talking multi-planetary) distance away is a huge feat.
 
Let's leave that be and move on. I say this because with speed comes the power of the characters. As such we should move on the the most controversial part of this revision. The Base Goku scaling and such. The speed comes naturally with this as well.

Do you all agree?
 
So the main point of discussion is whether the whole 3-B/3-A Base form has been retconned or not. Hence this is where we will start.
 
Isn't the only thing that supports the 3-B/3-A Base form the small interaction with Beerus at the end of their fight? Because if that is the only one it could have been retconned.
 
I agree as well.

We should scale Goku's Base from him absorbing the God Ki and fighting with Beerus as a Super Saiyan. Episode 104 kinda established that Super Saiyan God is essentially on the level of his regular Super Saiyan forms, having the advantadge in speed but the disadvantadge in power.
 
There has been no retcon. Goku was able to fight Beerus both in base and as a Super Saiyan and it was established that he absorbed at least some of God Ki into himself, and that was why he was able to do so well against Beerus without using SSG.

Later on he was able to fight with Golden Freeza even in his Base Form, making it clear that the power gap between the two forms isn't as large as previously seen.
 
@Matt

So like, at what point do the characters scale to 3-A instead of 3-B?

I ask cuz, well, if BoG Base Goku is 3-B, at what point does he grow stronger enough to be 3-A?
 
I think everything from RoF Arc to Goku Black Arc would be 3-B. By the Universe Survival Arc base would be 3-A...probably.
 
Considering that Goku and Beerus in their fight could destroy the universe with 6 punches total, and later on Goku and Beerus started using even more of their power, and Goku nullified an attack even stronger than the punches capable of destroying the universe, I really don't see why Goku wouldn't be 3-A by the Ressurection of F Arc.
 
We can't really tell what is or isn't retconned when you think about it. Toshio or whatever the guy's name is goes against all explicit and implicit information regarding 3-A ningen, and because his statements don't make sense, we aren't inclined to believe him on that topic. But to some, the reintroducion of SSG is a possibile rewrite of Goku's base being 3-A in power. I personally disagree with that, and I'll explain later. The bottom line is, people still don't think base or SS Goku is Universal, that only the God forms and SSR Trunks is. The DBZ Wiki even goes on this whole headcanon speal on Goku's SS form from BoG had evolved into SSB, and that his Super Saiyan forms aren't Universal, and that SBG is an actual transformation-- instead of a concept-- and that Goku has two base forms, and a bunch of other stuff that has no way of being able to be recognized in the Anime or Manga canon, but could be plausible fan theories to explain away inconsistencies and stuff. I don't think that there's enough definitive evidence for Goku's base/SS1 to not be equal to SSG, however we don't exactly have the best most irrefutable evidence of this, as even the Gowasu comment about Goku when he went SS2 against Zanmasu makes it seem like he was Universal, it's still fishy when we look at Beerus' reaction to the comment and the truth about where Goku stands in relation to Beerus. The counter argument to Gowasu's claim is that Goku cannot be GoD level at that point, because Sidra's the weakest GoD and there was very little reason to assume Goku could beat Sidra in SS2 (I mean, that argument is flimsy because Goku surviving a Hakai sphere in base could give us an idea that A 100x Stronger Goku might pull off the energy. That would imply that SS2 Goku is equal to FP Perfect Golden Frieza, and that's BS, because even though there was a brief moment where Goku and Frieza were fighting and Goku was in Base, they still one shot each other in Blue and FPPGF. That and Gowasu probably doesn't know what he's talking about-- going off of the hype that Beerus gave Goku and saying he was God of Destruction Level. However, this is more than likely just bad writing, and because of that, Goku could be literally weaker than Raditz for all we know canonically. Unless we say **** WoG, author intent, and ignore the fact that authors don't take Calcs as Canon, pull some death of the author and death of the author's perspective on the "Canon" of their story. Idk. I think it makes more sense to just scale Goku off of what is displayed obviously, rather than what was "intended" or any implicit/low-key retcons that we know nothing about in the concrete sense, but that seems like it's kind of obvious. I would put Goku at Base as Multi-Galaxy+ (I mean, slaughtering all 100, Billion Galaxies in the universe and dividing that shit by SS 50x multiplier would still be way into the high Multi-Galaxy+ range). This is the lowest ball we can get to without unfair downplay, and making all forms Universal would save some stress for scaling. Possibly. Literally everyone fights SS and SSB Goku, so almost everyone should be universal if Goku isn't suppressed to an unknown and arbitrary level. I don't think anyone like Cabba and other U6 fighters are Universal, but I can't say without headcanon how much Goku held back.
 
Have you ever heard of paragraphs. Seriously.

"people still don't think base or SS Goku is Universal"

What people think don't matter.

"The DBZ Wiki"

Wikis can be wrong.

"it's still fishy when we look at Beerus' reaction to the comment and the truth about where Goku stands in relation to Beerus"

I don't understand why Goku can't be 3-A and still be weaker than Beerus. The gap between the weakest and strongest 3-A is Infinite.

"there was very little reason to assume Goku could beat Sidra in SS2"

He can't. Doesn't mean he's not 3-A.

"That would imply that SS2 Goku is equal to FP Perfect Golden Frieza"

No, but the gap between Base Goku and Golden Freeza isn't nearly as enormous as the current Tiers suggest. That fight only gives further emphasis to that.

"Unless we say **** WoG, author intent, and ignore the fact that authors don't take Calcs as Canon"

But we already ignore WoG and Author Intent all the time when it contradicts the plot. Authorial Intent doesn't matter, and Writers Can't Do Math.

"I would put Goku at Base as Multi-Galaxy+"

That's fair in the slightest, but it would still make Super Saiyan forms 3-A.
 
TL:DR;

People downplay Goku because of the bad writing. Screw it, let's just continue doing what we're doing, because it's the best we got. Goku should be Multi-Galaxy+ in base, because even if it's 100 billion galaxies destroyed in the universe, cut that into 50 from SS multiplier, and that's 2 billion galaxies. A low ball, mind you.
 
3-A serious RoF base goku, I can buy it.

Its important to note the serious part. Goku likes holding back a lot. Because I'd like to know how we will treat Botamo.
 
Botamo doesn't scale to 3-B or 3-A in Attack Potency, at all.

And yes, Goku holds back significantly, it's why he spend so much time in his Base Form in the Tournament of Power.
 
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