Dragon Ball Super Movie Upgrades

[Aachintya31]

This is the most blatant thing missed on the wiki until now.

Saiyan Physiology :
It has been reiterated many times that Saiyan's Power increases greatly when they heal from near death. Even Goku Black after fighting Goku reached Super Saiyan Blue level due to the crazy accelerated developement the species has got.
Goku after nearly dying from his spirit bomb got his SSJB amped from up from 3-A to Low 2-C as noted on his profile Keys. In summary, its not tough to get tier changes for DBS characters (specifically saiyans )during fights and training.

Base Goku at the End of TOP and Beyond :

Base Goku's Barrier was able to held his own against a motivated Jiren's Attack against Frieza and Android 17. This implies goku's Ki increased after healing from the strain caused by Mastered Ultra instinct form. Moreover ,in DBS broly - Base Goku was able tank Wrath Broly's Punches who was able to pushback SSJ God Vegeta who even asked for the senzu beans despite always stating them to be against his pride to use them many times. Vegeta even stated Kakorat would rather die than win by eating senzu bean. This could imply wrath broly is even stronger than SSJB vegeta.
Wrath Broly is already Low 2-C on his profile.

Changes I propose :

Upgrade Base Goku post TOP to Low 2-C and Base Vegeta Low 2-C in his DBS super hero key for being able to match Base goku. All the other characters who scale can be discussed but i guess there aren't many.

Vote Tally

Agree : @DarkDragonMedeus ,@Reiner @Eseseso ,@Excel616 ,@KLOL506 ,@MARVEL_Future_Fight_Gamer
Disagree :

 

[Eseseso]

Agree.

On that note, Base Piccolo currently downscales to Low 2-C from holding his own against Gamma 2. Thus, Base Gohan should similarly be a downscaled Low 2-C as well due to holding his own against Gamma 1 to a notable extent and matching/taking multiple blows from him, as shown here:

Ahttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QsJ2H0tOBdA&t=160s

 

[Reiner04]

Seems fine.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I agree with DBS Broly movie era Goku being Low 2-C in his base form given that he was able to initally hold his own against a Wrath state Broly who stomped SSB Vegeta.

 

[Excellence616]

I agree

 

[KLOL506]

Honestly, I'm not against this. I support it fully.

 

[Marvel_Champion_07]

I agree

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Base Goku's Barrier was able to held his own against a motivated Jiren's Attack against Frieza and Android 17.

A broken, battered, and bruised Jiren. Even Android 17, who lacks the Accelerated Development of Goku and Frieza, was able to deal damage to and knock away Jiren, and Frieza, who was stonewalled and stomped by Jiren in his Golden form in Episode 127, was able to exchange blows with Jiren.

Moreover ,in DBS broly - Base Goku was able tank Wrath Broly's Punches who was able to pushback SSJ God Vegeta who even asked for the senzu beans despite always stating them to be against his pride to use them many times. Vegeta even stated Kakorat would rather die than win by eating senzu bean.

Ignoring that these clips are from the Android Saga... and the TV anime...

This could imply wrath broly is even stronger than SSJB vegeta.

...nothing at all implies this. Vegeta asking Goku about Senzu Beans implies that he has to get serious in order to win (confirmed by dialogue), and that his God form may not be enough to counter Broly (confirmed by battle). Besides, Broly did not even stomp God Vegeta like comments above suggest, he only knocked Vegeta away, and Goku stormed in to help.

 

[Eseseso]

Agree.

On that note, Base Piccolo currently downscales to Low 2-C from holding his own against Gamma 2. Thus, Base Gohan should similarly be a downscaled Low 2-C as well due to holding his own against Gamma 1 to a notable extent and matching/taking multiple blows from him, as shown here:

Ahttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QsJ2H0tOBdA&t=160s

Would you consider adding my proposal to the OP (if you personally agree with it)?

 

[Aachintya31]

A broken, battered, and bruised Jiren.

I don't even need to mention the times broken , battered and bruised Dragon ball characters are even stronger than their fully healed selves. Goku who even stamina drained and furthur injured by Kefla was able to transform in UIO and defeated her and later as SSJB able to match Jiren . Vegeta after self destructing against Toppo ,draining his energy and barely standing was able to later transform into SSJB evolution and fought Jiren.
Moreover, the Red Aura implies he got a momentary power amp from Toppo's Speech rather a permanent long lasting one.

Ignoring that these clips are from the Android Saga... and the TV anime...

This is just dumb......I'll find the alternatives, but the point stands.

Vegeta asking Goku about Senzu Beans implies that he has to get serious in order to win (confirmed by dialogue), and that his God form may not be enough to counter Broly (confirmed by battle).

Its against Vegeta's Pride to eat a Senzu in an ongoing fight he started fully healed. Vegeta asking Goku for senzu implies He might not able to win against him despite going all out. Why would Vegeta say this if he was sure that as a SSB he could defeat broly. He was already serious after he transformed into God Form, Vegeta even blasted Base Broly which by Goku's dialogue implies could've killed him.

Besides, Broly did not even stomp God Vegeta like comments above suggest, he only knocked Vegeta away, and Goku stormed in to help.

God Vegeta's Punch didn't even flinch Broly

 

[Aachintya31]

Would you consider adding my proposal to the OP (if you personally agree with it)?

The link is broken.

 

[Eseseso]

The link is broken.

My bad:

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

I completely agree, when Goku used genkidama he wasn't atomized? If yes, is it possible to apply a regeneration with superior instinct?

I remember there being nothing left of him or anything like that in the tournament

 

[Nullflowerblush]

I don't even need to mention the times broken , battered and bruised Dragon ball characters are even stronger than their fully healed selves. Goku who even stamina drained and furthur injured by Kefla was able to transform in UIO and defeated her and later as SSJB able to match Jiren . Vegeta after self destructing against Toppo ,draining his energy and barely standing was able to later transform into SSJB evolution and fought Jiren.

Because they are Saiyans.

Besides, Ultra Instinct -Sign- only ever activated in times of crisis for Goku, when his mind was out of commission, and his body was forced to response. That is its gimmick. Like how recovering from battle damage quickly and explosively skyrocketing in strength is part of the Saiyans's gimmick.

For Pete's sake, "Saiyans have no limits" is a tagline.

Moreover, the Red Aura implies he got a momentary power amp from Toppo's Speech rather a permanent long lasting one.

He is releasing his full power again, while broken, battered, and bruised.

Its against Vegeta's Pride to eat a Senzu in an ongoing fight he started fully healed.

It was against his pride when he was in the Cell Games, giving up on fighting after being upstaged by Gohan, willingly allowing Cell to reach its Perfect Form in order to prove his superiority, constantly barking at Goku and losing his cool when Goku declares that he surpassed him. Vegeta gave Goku his remaining energy in the Tournament of Power and put his utmost trust and support into Goku, Frieza, and 17 during the final battle. He is not above using Senzu Beans in an ongoing fight.

Besides, Vegeta was not even asking if he could have a Senzu at the moment, he was asking if Goku even had them on him in the first place, for reinsurance in case things went sour. This is not Vegeta being uncertain that Blue might not be enough, this is Vegeta being smart, cautious, forward-thinking, and being uncertain whether or not he'll need to heal as the fight goes on, fully understanding now that Broly has more and more untapped power in his reserves.

If he was not sure if he could win to begin with, why even ask for Senzu Beans? So he is healthy enough to run away and ask for help after being thrashed?

He was already serious after he transformed into God Form, Vegeta even blasted Base Broly which by Goku's dialogue implies could've killed him.

His dialogue explicitly dictates otherwise.

God Vegeta's Punch didn't even flinch Broly

A no-sell is not a stomp. Vegeta was able to keep pace with Broly and take a heavy blow head-on.

He was not stomped.

 

[Dalesean027]

This isn't necessarily targeting one side of this argument vs another but more on this specifc part, Ishitani talked about this in an interview with this being said:

"The scene you mentioned in your tweet where Jiren's barrier and Goku and company's barrier shatter like glass strongly implies that 'there is now nothing separating Jiren from Goku and the others,'" Ishitani explained before adding, "Of course, Jiren's smile also implies that 'Jiren has broken through his emotional shell.'""



Jiren had previously had his whole ideology shattered by UI goku literal moments before but was able to break out his own mental nerf and fight on equal footing with the Universe 7 fighters with his full power.

 

[Reiner04]

I will always agree with flower chan regardless of what happened.

 

[Eseseso]

I don't think Goku was Low 2-C in base during the final fight with Jiren, but he did do better against Broly than SSJG Vegeta did.

The only issue is that we don't know if SSJG Vegeta has the same Low 2-C status as his SSJB.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

I agree with Low 2-C Post-DBS Base Goku, but I don't agree with Base Goku > SSG Vegeta. Base Goku didn't do anything to Wrathful Broly, and Broly never stomped SSB Vegeta. He did overpowered SSG Vegeta though

Vegeta as SSB kept up with SSB Goku and was able to dodge attacks from SSJ Broly. Also, I'm pretty sure Goku and Vegeta sparred in DBS Broly and in Episode 131 after the ToP ended where both were in SSB

 

[Dalesean027]

I don't think Goku was Low 2-C in base during the final fight with Jiren, but he did do better against Broly than SSJG Vegeta did.

Yeah I don't think either were at 100% either but they definitely fighting at their full power with this "weakened jiren" actually being buffed in fact from moving past his own mental nerf but I doubt the the point where he's low 2-C so yeah as null said here, I kinda agree there

He is releasing his full power again, while broken, battered, and bruised.

That Base Goku in TOP isn't low 2-C

 

[Eseseso]

The issue is that IIRC SSJG Vegeta isn't Low 2-C, only his Blue form is.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

I agree with Low 2-C Post-DBS Base Goku, but I don't agree with Base Goku > SSG Vegeta. Base Goku didn't do anything to Wrathful Broly, and Broly never stomped SSB Vegeta. He did overpowered SSG Vegeta though

Vegeta as SSB kept up with SSB Goku and was able to dodge attacks from SSJ Broly. Also, I'm pretty sure Goku and Vegeta sparred in DBS Broly and in Episode 131 after the ToP ended where both were in SSB

They did.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I agree with Low 2-C Post-DBS Base Goku, but I don't agree with Base Goku > SSG Vegeta. Base Goku didn't do anything to Wrathful Broly, and Broly never stomped SSB Vegeta. He did overpowered SSG Vegeta though

Vegeta as SSB kept up with SSB Goku and was able to dodge attacks from SSJ Broly. Also, I'm pretty sure Goku and Vegeta sparred in DBS Broly and in Episode 131 after the ToP ended where both were in SSB

Goku in his base would still at this period be within the same ball park as SSB Vegeta. This was how it was for the tag teams; Base Vegeta, SSJ Vegeta, SSJ2 Vegeta, SSG Vegeta, SSB Vegeta, Base Goku, SSJ Goku, SSJ2 Goku, SSJ3 Goku, SSG Goku, SSB Goku. Some would argue that Goku demonstrated more skill rather than raw power over SSB Vegeta, which is possible but not enough to justify an infinite gap. But that's the thing, Goku and Vegeta take turns surpassing each other constantly; and in Zenkais buffing them to the point where a Post-Zenka base form > Pre-Zenkai SSB form is pretty common. We seen it in U6 saga where Goku match a level of Hit that stromped SSB Vegeta. We see SSB Blue Vegeta get body stomped by base Goku Black only to later stomp SSR Goku Black in his SSB form; which would translate to being able to stomp base GB in his own base form. And this process repeats a lot throughout ToP saga, and once again is a repeat of the Hit fight. But Base Vegeta is stronger than base Goku again as of the new movie and already Low 2-C in their base forms there.

 

[Dalesean027]

Goku in his base would still at this period be within the same ball park as SSB Vegeta. This was how it was for the tag teams; Base Vegeta, SSJ Vegeta, SSJ2 Vegeta, SSG Vegeta, SSB Vegeta, Base Goku, SSJ Goku, SSJ2 Goku, SSJ3 Goku, SSG Goku, SSB Goku. Some would argue that Goku demonstrated more skill rather than raw power over SSB Vegeta, which is possible but not enough to justify an infinite gap. But that's the thing, Goku and Vegeta take turns surpassing each other constantly; and in Zenkais buffing them to the point where a Post-Zenka base form > Pre-Zenkai SSB form is pretty common. We seen it in U6 saga where Goku match a level of Hit that stromped SSB Vegeta. We see SSB Blue Vegeta get body stomped by base Goku Black only to later stomp SSR Goku Black in his SSB form; which would translate to being able to stomp base GB in his own base form. And this process repeats a lot throughout ToP saga, and once again is a repeat of the Hit fight. But Base Vegeta is stronger than base Goku again as of the new movie and already Low 2-C in their base forms there.

Actually funny too because just because they perform equally teaming up together doesn't necessarily mean this cannot be the case since its made apparent many times throughout super but especially in the TOP that teamwork amps people with many fighters and people in the stands commenting on this fact and not a flowery language type of "stronger together" but a literal stronger together thing like the Trio De Danger being many times stronger than either of them are individually while working together

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Goku in his base would still at this period be within the same ball park as SSB Vegeta. This was how it was for the tag teams; Base Vegeta, SSJ Vegeta, SSJ2 Vegeta, SSG Vegeta, SSB Vegeta, Base Goku, SSJ Goku, SSJ2 Goku, SSJ3 Goku, SSG Goku, SSB Goku. Some would argue that Goku demonstrated more skill rather than raw power over SSB Vegeta, which is possible but not enough to justify an infinite gap. But that's the thing, Goku and Vegeta take turns surpassing each other constantly; and in Zenkais buffing them to the point where a Post-Zenka base form > Pre-Zenkai SSB form is pretty common. We seen it in U6 saga where Goku match a level of Hit that stromped SSB Vegeta. We see SSB Blue Vegeta get body stomped by base Goku Black only to later stomp SSR Goku Black in his SSB form; which would translate to being able to stomp base GB in his own base form. And this process repeats a lot throughout ToP saga, and once again is a repeat of the Hit fight. But Base Vegeta is stronger than base Goku again as of the new movie and already Low 2-C in their base forms there.

I didn't really understand your point there. In the Broly movie, Vegeta never went SSB against Ikari Broly. Only Goku did

And in terms of damage, Goku didn't do any damage to Broly, and only stopped him once he went SSG. Vegeta in the movie also kept up with SSB Goku, and evaded attacks from SSJ Broly, which he wouldn't be able to if SSB Vegeta < Base Goku

 

[Aachintya31]

SSB Vegeta < Base Goku

Not necessarily. Both Goku and Broly were evolving during their fights

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Not necessarily. Both Goku and Broly were evolving during their fights

It's more Broly unlocking his rage, but even then Broly before going SSJ was said to not be able to beat SSB Goku, which is why Frieza killed Paragus

Again, SSB Vegeta kept up with the same Goku and dodged attacks from SSJ Broly. It's very clear he scales to Goku. Goku and Vegeta also sparred in DBS Broly

 

[Aachintya31]

So How could y'all explain Base Goku tanking Wrath Broly's Punches.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Considering this movie used Golden Frieza tanking SSJ1 Broly's attacks for a whole hour when neither Goku nor Vegeta were no match for him at that point in time, I think Goku tanking Wrath state Broly that stomped SSG Vegeta, would be evidence that SSJ1 Goku would be above SSB Vegeta.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

So How could y'all explain Base Goku tanking Wrath Broly's Punches.

I don't know what this looks like to you, but to me, this looks like Broly having the upper hand on and thrashing around Goku in both his base form and his Super Saiyan form. His punches were launching Goku through the air and causing him visible pain, even after he transformed, and Goku never got a solid hit in on him.

Like, should Super Saiyan 3 Goku back in the Battle of Gods Saga be 3-A for surviving Beerus's flick? Should Vegeta in the Tournament of Power be Low 2-C for enduring Jiren's beatings?

 

[Veronica]

DBS has insane powercreep such as star level Frieza to universal+ Frieza just in 4 months. Look at Broly, Beast Gohan, Android 17, Piccolo. They all magically got powercreeped.

 

[Phsccarvalho]

I find the God Vegeta and Goku Base thing strange.

God Vegeta didn't really take a beating from Wrathful Broly, and I didn't see Goku Base doing any kind of significant damage to Wrathful Broly, but he did keep up with Wrathful Broly during the fight.

Besides of course, at the beginning of the movie base Goku and base Vegeta were training by fighting each other. And during the SSB Goku and SSB Vegeta vs SSJ Broly fight, it seemed to me that Goku and Vegeta were at least comparable to each other.

Honestly, personally I think Wrathful Broly's fight against God Vegeta and Goku Base was an inconsistency in powerscaling.

 

[Eseseso]

I mean, Toriyama said that as of DBS Broly, Vegeta was still working to catch up to Goku.

But that doesn't answer the question of what tier SSJG Vegeta is.

Also, plz look at my Low 2-C proposal for Base Super Hero Gohan

 

[Aachintya31]

Like, should Super Saiyan 3 Goku back in the Battle of Gods Saga be 3-A for surviving Beerus's flick?

He was stated and shown to hold back his strength or we have 3-A bulma

Should Vegeta in the Tournament of Power be Low 2-C for enduring Jiren's beatings?

Not quite. Jiren needed to hold back because he can't kill vegeta. Moreover ,even vegeta states Jiren isn't using his Full power and just knocked him which is clear with his dialogue where he says Sleep Warrior.
Broly doesn't have a reason to hold back. He was going berserk and was out of his senses.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Not quite. Jiren needed to hold back because he can't kill vegeta. Moreover ,even vegeta states Jiren isn't using his Full power and just knocked him which is clear with his dialogue where he says Sleep Warrior.
Broly doesn't have a reason to hold back. He was going berserk and was out of his senses.

Even holding back, Jiren is Low 2-C.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Considering this movie used Golden Frieza tanking SSJ1 Broly's attacks for a whole hour when neither Goku nor Vegeta were no match for him at that point in time, I think Goku tanking Wrath state Broly that stomped SSG Vegeta, would be evidence that SSJ1 Goku would be above SSB Vegeta.

Golden Frieza being able to tank Broly's punches doesn't relate to Goku and Vegeta since unlike them, who literally fought each other even in the movie, Frieza never fought Goku and Vegeta in the movie itself, so it could be Frieza trained more after the tournament and surpassed SSB Goku and SSB Vegeta in Golden

 

[Reiner04]

Golden Frieza being able to tank Broly's punches doesn't relate to Goku and Vegeta since unlike them, who literally fought each other even in the movie, Frieza never fought Goku and Vegeta in the movie itself, so it could be Frieza trained more after the tournament and surpassed SSB Goku and SSB Vegeta in Golden

Shouldn't we speculate things based off what is shown... Golden frieza may trained assumption shouldn't be used when he hasn't shown to but only what has been shown previously.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Shouldn't we speculate things based off what is shown... Golden frieza may trained assumption shouldn't be used when he hasn't shown to but only what has been shown previously.

Golden Frieza does have the feats of tanking hits from SSJ Broly and even being able to stagger him in the novelization of the film but Goku and Vegeta couldn't. Considering they were all stronger than before, Frieza training too is very likely even if he didn't do it all that much

 

[Eseseso]

Also, plz look at my Low 2-C proposal for Base Super Hero Gohan

Screw it: https://vsbattles.com/threads/super-hero-upgrade-for-base-gohan.146851/

 

[Vietthai96]

Wep, i'm waiting for a chance to reorganize Goku profile, this is a good chance bruhhh, hmm i'm leaning on toward agree

 

[CiscoTheSoto]

I disagree with this for several reasons. One, the evidence you're using for the Tournament of Power is faulty. Yes, Goku helped 17 and Frieza hold back Jiren's attack, but it's been very clearly shown that 17's barriers are significantly higher than his durability. Moreover, he literally did not lose any stamina because he's an android, so his barriers shouldn't be any weaker than they were at the beginning of the tournament. Frieza also helped with maintaining the barrier with his energy.

Even though Goku's power did increase during the tournament after his Ultra Instinct Sign, it wasn't nearly as grievous as the damage that perfected Ultra Instinct had on Goku's body. For his power-up after losing to Jiren the first time, remember that Frieza gave him a large portion of his energy, so that helped speed his recovery. We saw how utterly painful and debilitating the drawback of Perfected Ultra Instinct was for Goku's body. And the Saiyan Power boost usually only applies after the Saiyan has been healed if it's debilitating damage. Goku was so completely drained that he could barely move his body, and only barely had the strength to become a Super Saiyan. And again, Jiren was significantly weakened from both his battle with MUI Goku, Golden Frieza, then 17's close-range attack. To assume he was still at his full power is presumptuous.

For Goku fighting against Wrathful Broly, I don't agree with that as evidence, either. Goku was clearly being overpowered throughout his entire scuffle with Wrathful Broly, and it was shown as a one-sided beatdown until Goku became a SSG. In my opinion, that should be an outlier, cuz it's kinda stupid to say that SSJ Goku would somehow be superior to SSG Vegeta. They both had practically the same training on Whis' planet, so I don't know what knowledge Goku would have that'd allow him to increase his SSJ power so much compared to Vegeta. That was just added to show the first-person perspective from Broly's side to make the movie look cooler. Base Goku and Vegeta were sparing evenly in the beginning of the movie, and SSB Goku and Vegeta were presented as about equal when they fought SSJ Broly. I think that the ratings should stay as they are now.