Dragon Ball Super Manga Downgrades

[Zamasu_Chan]

Ah ok. Tuff.

 

[Chariot190]

Well even the shaking went real close to 3-B,

I mean, there's always inverse square law, though the shockwave itself being fucky makes that hard if not impossible to apply.

Tbh, I just dont see how a high-end 3-B clash that's heavily implied to be capable of universal destruction if it occurred a few more times doesnt mean that characters that are like dozens of times, with a confirmed 10x multiplier tossed in there somewhere, above that clash like Jiren, Vegito or Moro arent 3-A if that clash was implied only a handful of times off of 3-A in the first place.
At the very least this is by definition a "Possibly/Likely" Scenario.
I dont even care if Goku gets downgraded I just find this exceptionally odd way of how we're treating this particular feat and context.

 

[KLOL506]

I mean, there's always inverse square law, though the shockwave itself being fucky makes that hard if not impossible to apply.

Tbh, I just dont see how a high-end 3-B clash that's heavily implied to be capable of universal destruction if it occurred a few more times doesnt mean that characters that are like dozens of times above that clash like Jiren, Vegito or Moro arent 3-A if that clash was implied only a handful of times off of 3-A in the first place.
At the very least this is by definition a "Possibly/Likely" Scenario.
I dont even care if Goku gets downgraded I just find this exceptionally odd way of how we're treating this particular feat and context.

Like I said, we got real high-end 3-C+ via inverse square law since Goku was literally doing this at the edge of the universe as the Earth was situated there (That's what you have to use anyway for feats of this scale)

 

[Chariot190]

Eh, still stand by my point. If we use the feat, we also have to take into account it's made clear that if it happened a handful more times everything would be boned. Of course it only ended up happening once, but that still tells us the perceived power and severity of the single clash, it being higher 3-B. Which imo, at the very least should make Moro Arc characters Likely 3-A off the Broly 10x and the bunch of unquantifiable but drastic power jumps. (Actually if memory serves, this indirectly tells us post BOG SSJ>SSJG is over 10x boost due to that movie, that could possibly lead to figure out certain jumps in power at certain story points but I dont have the time to look into that).

 

[KLOL506]

Eh, still stand by my point. If we use the feat, we also have to take into account it's made clear that if it happened a handful more times everything would be boned. Of course it only ended up happening once, but that still tells us the perceived power and severity of the single clash, it being higher 3-B. Which imo, at the very least should make Moro Arc characters Likely 3-A off the Broly 10x and the bunch of unquantifiable but drastic power jumps. (Actually if memory serves, this indirectly tells us post BOG SSJ>SSJG is over 10x boost due to that movie, that could possibly lead to figure out certain jumps in power at certain story points but I dont have the time to look into that).

I mean, there should be absolutely no contention to the fact that it's high-end 3-B (For the manga specifically). Only problem here I'm seeing honestly is the exact joule value we'd get out of this for the manga, but that really doesn't matter in the long run.

TL;DR, feat is definitely high-end 3-B and close to 3-A, but how high-end into 3-B and how close to 3-A (As in, the exact energy value in joules or FOE), we don't know. It's literally that simple for people to understand.

 

[KLOL506]

Your point isn't even new and has been responded to anyway. 3-B is a large tier and they are 3-B for being a threat to the universe as a whole. We don't know how much time it would have taken then to destroy the universe at that rate, but assuming it would have happened during that fight, that makes them high-end 3-B. How far into 3-B? We simply don't know. How much more do they need to become 3-A? We don't know. How much stronger they became after BoG? Again, unquantifiable and unknown.

Basically this in a nutshell for BoG. 3-B stays no matter what.

 

[Chariot190]

I agree with you in full in regards to that first post.
Though that's kinda my point, while we may not know the exact joule value, the feat is higher end 3-B, and that's what matters.
But that in turn begs the question, what do we do about characters who are literally like 30x stronger (Like Jiren, Moro, Vegito, Broly, Gogeta) and even further above then the Goku who did the feat? Saying they're 3-B by being like 15x above a feat that was already kinda close to 3-A seems sus.

 

[ByAsura]

I'm responding a little earlier than expected. I will also be presenting this in non-linear order because it was easier when I made this.

Yes, it is presented as the beginning, nobody said otherwise.

Blatantly false. You, and only you, very explicitly said otherwise, even going so far as to clarify it with brackets: "How long the fight lasted doesn't matter. because the attacks that were actually going to do the damage happened near the end (as in, the clashes that were a threat to the universe only happened near the end)."

If Goku's power was increasing at the start and was fading in the stratosphere why are you using examples of a weakened Goku instead of Goku at the power he performed the clash that worried Old Kai in the first place? You see the issue with that right?

Beerus notes his power was fading in the stratosphere. Goku's also noticeably more rugged with ripped clothes and multiple injuries from battle, suggesting the fight has gone on for a while at this point. Also, the level of power Goku used to stop Beerus' attack was actually far greater than any strength he'd shown prior, which is why he goes from being highly weakened to stopping the blast.

i mean, at face value, they technically only did one hit, and a bunch of hits that didnt actually do anything at all and arent part of the feat (the energy blast might be though? So I may give you that one).
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You're unironically using examples of before they clashed, or hell, them not even clashing to begin with and just them attacking while in full control to say it wouldnt have taken a few hits, even though the feat itself and the line suggesting it would only take a few hits more happens after that. Im honestly confused as to what you're trying to argue with those scans, only one of relevance is the energy ball scan and that lit up a bunch of planets, and mind you, that was actually the kamehameha that did that, as in, something Goku has complete control over. there's a reason why I said several clashes and not attacks (Actually I may have once or twice, oops).
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The clashes were the issue, not random attacks.I didnt even think this was a point of confusion or controversy, I shouldnt have to explain why only clashes are relevant here as that's what caused the damage in the first place, what made Old Kai panic, and what he was referring to when he thought the universe was in huge jeopardy, not the standard controlled strikes.

Before, I said Beerus was at the same level of power as he did in the clashes, but I take this back since he clearly has an aura here. So I'll concede that the previous hits aren't part of the feats.

Goku has no less control over his punches as well. If he didn't, each blow would be destroying the Earth in his Saiyan Saga Base Form, let alone Beerus and Goku's hits in this battle. This Kamehameha, as I explained before, was also far more powerful than these regular clashes (that weren't really doing any more damage than the final solar system illuminating blast), which are effectively just the two of them colliding fists and therefore way weaker than the end blasts.

Clashes. it would only take a few more clashes to destroy the universe. Other attacks? Dont know, dont care. But clashes? The thing that actually spanned the whole universe, reached the kai realm, and what made Old Kai panic and say at that rate the universe would be in jeopardy? Still stand by that and still stand by saying otherwise is disingenuous, you could consider me hypocritical or having foregone context, but only if you misinterpret my argument here. I'm strictly referring to the clashing, the feat itself, what Old kai was referring to when he actually made the claim, ie, the clash was strong enough to where if a few more of those happened, the universe would be ******, whatever else happened in that fight has no bearing on what Ive been saying.

My argument that you were ignoring the rest of the fight wasn't just that you were ignoring the punches on-panel (which I partially agree is fair), it's that there was fighting off-screen. A massive portion of the battle is off-panel (seemingly most given how Goku goes from undamaged to damaged and is heavily weakened). Beerus and Goku's fight continued far beyond one clash. Despite this, the entire universe wasn't gone.

We only see like a dozen or two attacks. But that's irrelevant, don't take Old Kai's statement and apply it to something it isnt about, that's actually straight up lying. When he said "at this rate", he was talking about the clash, the giant universal range shockwave, nothing else, prior to that he was just worried about the Earth but when that happened, he changed his tone from earth to "oh shit the whole universe will be screwed if this happens at that rate". That's a false analogy, because that's not the context of the line, he's very clearly talking about the giant shockwave, he even precedes that statement with talking about it directly.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1. When Goku and Beerus clashed, the resulting shockwave reached Elder Kai, who expressed shock and awe at it.

2. In reference to the clash, he said, if that keeps up, the whole universe will be in shit.

Ergo, the clash was strong to where if it happened a few more times, they'd have destroyed the material universe, or just about anyway. Unfortunately (or fortunately depending on your view), it didnt happen, they never clashed again, it was a one off event in the manga, they never unleashed another big **** you giant shockwave, but we know from Old Kai that the one that did happen was strong enough to if it occurred a handful more times, there would be actual universal levels of damage happening, which mostly just tells us the clash was super high into 3-B to where a handful could cause 3-A levels of destruction, which is what I've been saying, and that after several big multiplier jumps they'd reach the level to where they're outputting that level of force several times over, which by all accounts should at least make them baseline. You get my point right? I hope I've made myself clearer here to avoid further confusion as to what I'm actually trying to argue.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It's not ignoring what the manga shows, as those arent actually the feat, in the same vain in the anime they fought and attacked each other but did nothing major till they clashed, the exact same thing happened here, just to a far lesser degree and only once opposed to like 3-4, of course the anime isnt the same canon, but we have old kai's statement and point of reference to gauge the severity of the clash they did do and how many more would be required, which is implied to be not a whole lot.

Effectively, your entire logic is based on Elder Kai claiming that the universe is in danger after one clash. It's extremely speculative that this referred to a few attacks, as Goku and Beerus were still more than capable of fighting at this point, and repeating it multiple times doesn't lend the idea any more credibility. While, it's true that his shock is in reference to the shockwave, but Elder Kai very explicitly says "at this rate the universe will be destroyed". The presence of the term "rate" and the future-tense suggests all-but completely means the continued clashes will destroy the universe.

Basically, nothing directly implies that Goku and Beerus are going to destroy the universe with a few hits. It's only context that you've added to it so your point can seem more credible. The facts are that we don't know how many hits it would take, especially since we don't even see part of the battle. It's also really hard to go about debunking your points because there's not much evidence or substance you provide for me to deconstruct.

We shouldn't upscale or downscale anyone because of the lack of information. Goku should stay Multi-Galaxy level, and Beerus/scaled characters should At least Multi-Galaxy level for being far stronger. Champa's statement, in and of itself, doesn't even prove GoDs can destroy universes, just that he'll stop caring about Beerus' universe.

 

[KLOL506]

We shouldn't upscale or downscale anyone because of the lack of information. Goku should stay Multi-Galaxy level, and Beerus/scaled characters should At least Multi-Galaxy level for being far stronger. Champa's statement, in and of itself, doesn't even prove GoDs can destroy universes, just that he'll stop caring about Beerus' universe.

Basically this.

 

[SuperGodzilla_Kaiju_King]

3-A should still stand for Moro's explosion as it was going to take out the Super Dragon Balls which are spread between Universe 6 and 7. MUI Goku, Beerus, etc should scale vaguely below that or around that tier.
And galaxy is used interchangeably with universal in the later parts of the Moro arc. "He might blow up the galaxy" is not valid downgrading.

 

[DTG499]

Moro's explosion as it was going to take out the Super Dragon Balls which are spread between Universe 6 and 7

2-C Moro

 

[LightReinh12345]

3-A should still stand for Moro's explosion as it was going to take out the Super Dragon Balls which are spread between Universe 6 and 7. MUI Goku, Beerus, etc should scale vaguely below that or around that tier.
And galaxy is used interchangeably with universal in the later parts of the Moro arc. "He might blow up the galaxy" is not valid downgrading.

Moro Should be 2-C by that

 

[Hasty12345]

Well, we just went from a 3-A to 3-B to 2-C in 3 comments....

This CRT won't end anytime soon

 

[ByAsura]

Where does it say the Super Dragon Balls would have been destroyed?

On an unrelated note, it's confirmed the Grand Priest erased Meerus and reincarnated him as a mortal.

 

[SuperGodzilla_Kaiju_King]

Here you go.

 

[ProudLearner]

That's not 2-C. It means that by destroying a single Super Dragon Ball, they won't be able to use the wish since they cannot summon the dragon with six balls.

 

[Darksmash]

Bruh
That's clearly just saying they can't escape the explosion
Unless you wanna make U6 and U7 galaxy sized combined

 

[ByAsura]

Krillin is going by Whis' statement about the galaxy being destroyed, so I highly doubt it doesn't exclusively refer to the Galaxy/North part of the universe. Also, even if one was destroyed, they wouldn't be able to make a wish, but it seems they mean all of them (unless the balls are all totally disabled/destroyed if one goes). Either way, it seems like the author is using bad logic to up the stakes in this chapter.

 

[ZetaMarishi]

Are the Galaxy statements a thing due to an ambiguous word in Japanese or what? Cause some of the statements only really make sense if they're talking about Universal destruction, like destroying the Super Dragon Balls. Especially since I'm not even sure that they know where they are right now.

I could buy it being written specifically as galaxy, but I'm legit curious about that.

 

[ByAsura]

Even then, it'd have to be universes. Maybe there's some untranslated scans somewhere.

 

[ZetaMarishi]

I'm not even here to argue for him blowing up Universe 6 and 7, I think he'd just **** 'em up by destroying the ones in U7, I'm just wondering if that's a thing in general.

 

[ByAsura]

I mean by the logic that Godzilla is using.

I don't know about that, but I heard there isn't from a past DB thread.

Edit: There's also some spoiler translations I found that confirm it's galaxy.

 

[AKM sama]

Anyway, I guess we can apply this revision now.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

The 3-A characters will be adjusted to "At least 3-B", right?

 

[God900]

I think we should just put them like "Possibly 3-A", instead of "at least 3-B" but whatever.......

 

[KingTempest]

At least 3-B, possibly 3-A.

 

[AKM sama]

At least 3-B sounds like a good option.

 

[God900]

We should just put them at least 3-B, possibly 3-A then.

 

[LightReinh12345]

At least 3-B, Possibly 3-A sounds better

 

[God900]

At least 3-B, Possibly 3-A sounds better

Yeah.

 

[AKM sama]

We have no reason to put them at possibly 3-A. Again, this has been covered.

 

[Omimi]

agree with AKM

 

[KLOL506]

Wasn't the 3-A part exclusively for ToP characters only? I'm pretty sure not even Infinite Zamasu in the manga got a 3-A rating.

 

[ByAsura]

Ok. I'm adding the at least 3-B stuff, adjusted some of the justifications (ones only brought up here), etc. If we're going to put in "possibly 3-A", we can just do that later so this discussion doesn't drag out any longer.

 

[Ionliosite]

Are the Galaxy statements a thing due to an ambiguous word in Japanese or what?

No, the Japanese word for Galaxy (Ginga) is pretty unambigous, unlike "world" or "star" which can refer to many different things on context. And ByAsura said, this is indeed the word used in Japanese.

Cause some of the statements only really make sense if they're talking about Universal destruction, like destroying the Super Dragon Balls.

That's just Toyotaro being dumb and saying that, somehow, a galaxy-sized explosion can destroy the SDB that are spread across 2 universes...

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

God I hate Toyotaro.

 

[God900]

Ok. I'm adding the at least 3-B stuff, adjusted some of the justifications (ones only brought up here), etc. If we're going to put in "possibly 3-A", we can just do that later so this discussion doesn't drag out any longer.

Yeah

 

[AKM sama]

If we're going to put in "possibly 3-A", we can just do that later so this discussion doesn't drag out any longer.

We don't need to have the same discussion that happened here again later. Everything will remain the same until Toyotaro hopefully gives us something new to work with. Thanks for making the edits.

 

[ByAsura]

No problem.

Since everything in the thread (including Goku Black and Completed SSB) has been covered, I'll close this one.