Dragon Ball Super Discussion Thread 84

[PFM18]

So what are you implying? Beerus is stronger than UI?

I'm just saying we don't have any direct statement comparing the two. That was simplpy changed dialogue. Changed dialogue is not evidence, is all I'm saying.

Fusion = (Max of Fusee 1 + Max of Fusee 2) x tens of times(20-190)
That's not what Vados stated. Vados just said their power was added, this contrast between the max of the fusee but just the base of the fusion is just head canon

 

[Peter1129]

Just saying I am pretty sure tens of times means 10-99 and not 20-190 since tens of times means it somewhere in the tens but not a hundred.

 

[BlastX]

Also, shouldn't the boost from SS2 to SS3 be possibly x4 since that is the official multiplier and may be possible to use?

It's not like SS3 is used much in canon.

Also a question

Regardless of if Goku absorbed God into base or not, did he become stronger in base to the point ofof surprassing his Super Saiyan forms when he was younger?

Basically, did he surprass his Super Saiyan form when he first got it?

 

[PFM18]

Just saying I am pretty sure tens of times means 10-99 and not 20-190 since tens of times means it somewhere in the tens but not a hundred.

"tens" could also mean in an exponential sense. as in, 10*10*10=10^3 sort of thing. It's pretty ambiguous to me

Grade 2 --> Grade 4 = Unknown, at least 2x Reason: About half power of Grade 4 Goku was enough for Vegeta to realize that the gap between him and Goku has widened again.
Or Goku's Base is stronger than Vegeta's Base? that doesn't even remotely suggest grade 4 has a better multiplier. In fact, literally nothing suggests grade 4 has a better multiplier than Grade 1. That would completely defeat the purpose of the form even existing.

 

[Peter1129]

I am 100% sure that is not how tens of times works. Tens of times means it's higher than 10 but lower than 100. Because if it was 100x or higher it would be grouped with hundreds of times.

 

[ArgosaxDespair]

Jiren is said to be the mightiest foe in DB history in the episode synopsis, before reaching his Burning Ultimate Warrior state.

That's probably because Base Gogeta is far stronger than the combined strength of SSJB Goku and SSJB Vegeta. I don't know if you watched it dubbed, but in the sub, Vados says that their strength isn't just added to each other, but it increases tens of times.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

hmmm

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

@PFM18 how do you explain SSG Goku being weaker than base Kefla but SSB Goku being initially equal to SSJ Kefla?

 

[PFM18]

I am 100% sure that is not how tens of times works. Tens of times means it's higher than 10 but lower than 100. Because if it was 100x or higher it would be grouped with hundreds of times.

The point was that the respect in which we are talking about the "tens of times", whether it be additively or multiplicatively.

Jiren is said to be the mightiest foe in DB history in the episode synopsis, before reaching his Burning Ultimate Warrior state. That's probably because Base Gogeta is far stronger than the combined strength of SSJB Goku and SSJB Vegeta. I don't know if you watched it dubbed, but in the sub, Vados says that their strength isn't just added to each other, but it increases tens of times.
Why exactly would Jiren being strong indicate that Base Gogeta>>>>(SSB Goku+SSB Vegeta)

@PFM18 how do you explain SSG Goku being weaker than base Kefla but SSB Goku being initially equal to SSJ Kefla?
....how would you explain it?

 

[ArgosaxDespair]

My boy, the Jiren part has nothing to do with Gogeta. It has to do with the UI vs. Beerus argument earlier.

 

[Eminiteable]

I've noticed that battle powers have been used to determine characters of unknown levels of power; however, Krillin in 23rd Budokai shouldn't be listed as likely 7-A if we're going to use this reasoning as 6 years later his battle power was 206 yet Piccolo Daimao in most guide books is listed at 260 and is 7-B.

Ultimately I think the likes of 23rd Budokai Krillin and Yamcuha and honestly probably Tenshinhan should instead be listed at 7-B or the use of power levels not shown in the story should be thought about.

 

[Infera28]

is SSJ3 accepted as a 400x multiplier in site? if not what was reasoning for not accepting that?

i have same question about Heaven being as big as universe shit too.

 

[SomebodyData]

No, basically a 2 or 4x boost wouldn't explain the sheer mangitude of a power gap displayed for neither SSJ2 or3. Personally, I don't understand why SSJ's 50x isn't accepted, since that one is consistent.

Ye, I believe so.

 

[GojiBoyForever]

Impo the multipliers changed sometime in the cell saga for ssj, sometime in the Buu saga for ssj2, and sometime in super for ssj3.

 

[ChocomilkAlex]

I forgot the multipliers existed lolmfao

 

[DMB_1]

Personally, I don't understand why SSJ's 50x isn't accepted, since that one is consistent.

The accepted multiplier is 40 times since it allowed Goku, who with x20KK kept up with 50% Frieza, to keep up with him at 100%.

 

[Dragomer]

Personally, I don't understand why SSJ's 50x isn't accepted, since that one is consistent.

The accepted multiplier is 40 times since it allowed Goku, who with x20KK kept up with 50% Frieza, to keep up with him at 100%.

But that's the thing, it doesn't work, Goku was lagging behind as KK 20 and was dominating as a SSJ, it has to be at the very least a bit above 40.

 

[DMB_1]

Which is why I always thought that the x40 multiplier was a bit of a lowball.

 

[BlastX]

Yeah, I don't know why x40 was used when Goku stomped Freezer, they may be referring to the anime

 

[Ryukama]

Personally, I don't understand why SSJ's 50x isn't accepted, since that one is consistent.

Cause 50x comes from a guidebook. Even though for years 4 galaxies was accepted cause of a guidebook

 

[Warren_Valion]

Cause 50x comes from a guidebook. Even though for years 4 galaxies was accepted cause of a guidebook

The same guidebook that also states that Dragon Ball universe is infinite in size.

Lmao, the Daizenshuu is wacky.

 

[ArgosaxDespair]

Dragon Ball Xenoverse 2 has officially ended

 

[Dragomer]

Cause 50x comes from a guidebook. Even though for years 4 galaxies was accepted cause of a guidebook

The same guidebook that also states that Dragon Ball universe is infinite in size.
Lmao, the Daizenshuu is wacky.

It's not wacky as much as people wilfully missunderstanding what it say and somewhat wonky translation, the daizenshuu was always clear that the universe was divided in quadrant and the translation team didn't account for japanese to not have plural for 'galaxy'.

 

[Dragomer]

Dragon Ball Xenoverse 2 has officially ended

Wait, really ? they stopped milking it ? i was expecting at least another RPG or more micro transaction stuff.

They are probably removing the competition for DBZ Kakarot and are preparing to use the Kakarot engine for Xenoverse 3.

 

[ZERO7772]

Dragon Ball Xenoverse 2 has officially ended

About time. They been milking it for 3 years now? Maybe even more.

 

[Eminiteable]

Question, do you gotta pay dlc to get the ending?

 

[ArgosaxDespair]

Apparently, you need the Ultra Pack 2 to see this ending.

 

[ChocomilkAlex]

Xenoverse 2 had a good run ngl.

 

[PFM18]

My boy, the Jiren part has nothing to do with Gogeta. It has to do with the UI vs. Beerus argument earlier.

Except I was simply explaining that the evidence being used is invalid?

Not sure how that relates to UI vs Beerus either.

 

[Lightbuster30]

Personally, I don't understand why SSJ's 50x isn't accepted, since that one is consistent.

The accepted multiplier is 40 times since it allowed Goku, who with x20KK kept up with 50% Frieza, to keep up with him at 100%.

Did he really? The best he did with a KHH was cause some minor burning on Frieza's hand, and iirc that move has a higher power level than the users base power according to the Sayian Saga. Yeah, I know how inconsisient power levels are. Doesn't change that the KHH spiked his normal power when he used it.

 

[ArgosaxDespair]

Except I was simply explaining that the evidence being used is invalid?

Not sure how that relates to UI vs Beerus either.

You said there was no direct comparison between them and I showed you one. Before reaching BUW, Jiren was stated to be the mightiest foe in DB history. As we know, UI Goku is superior to that Jiren, and later on, he surpasses BUW Jiren after becoming eranged. The fact that he was stated as the most powerful is a direct comparison to every foe in DB history. That's the reasoning behind my comment earlier.

 

[Ovrhide]

Which is why I always thought that the x40 multiplier was a bit of a lowball.

is not a lowball, its just outright wrong. its 50x. and there is no inconcistency because goku was beating 100% freeza handily in the manga. theres a reason gokus power level was 150,000,000 and freezas 120,000,000,

 

[PFM18]

Except I was simply explaining that the evidence being used is invalid?
Not sure how that relates to UI vs Beerus either.

You said there was no direct comparison between them and I showed you one. Before reaching BUW, Jiren was stated to be the mightiest foe in DB history. As we know, UI Goku is superior to that Jiren, and later on, he surpasses BUW Jiren after becoming eranged. The fact that he was stated as the most powerful is a direct comparison to every foe in DB history. That's the reasoning behind my comment earlier.
What quote exactly are you talking about? LIke specifically.

And Beerus may not even necessarily be considered a "foe" in that context. Broly is "Goku's strongest enemy ever" who is "probably stronger than Beerus." so it leaves questions.

 

[Shadowenclave47]

Dragon Ball Xenoverse 2 has officially ended

About time. They been milking it for 3 years now? Maybe even more.
Yeah lol.

 

[ArgosaxDespair]

@PFM18

I think this was confirmed in a synopsis of one of the episodes or an information released by TOEI about the episode, you can find if here: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DWsQLdqUMAInP2K?format=jpg

IIRC, the information of Broly being the strongest came from the Saikyo Jump, and I couldn't find information of this being confirmed by TOEI or credible staff members.

Foe means opponent. Beerus was an opponent, and the quote is not coming from a character's point of view, but from a general perspective of things. We have to remember that Whis introduced Jiren by saying that not even a GoD could beat him, without differentiating Beerus from other GoDs.

 

[PFM18]

Well, now that exams are over I think I have a minute to re-type this response.Probably won't be quite as long this time though. I must say you are definitely making a more coherent argument and being more respectful than the other guy did.

The whole fight was about Beerus testing Goku's limits constantly and Goku breaking through time and again. Even when they were fighting on Earth and Beerus beat SSG to a pulp, Goku came back stronger and continued the fight. When they went into the stratosphere and Goku was about to lose the beam struggle, he came back even stronger to match Beerus's power. When Beerus nullified Goku's energy and turned him back to base, Goku shouldn't have anything left. But he broke through his limits again and came back with an even greater power. And lastly when his power drained again and Beerus added insult to injury, Goku broke through his limits again in his base form.

Yes, Goku had grown throughout the fight. There was no ambiguity either, given that it was stated by Vegeta, the narrator and the episode title that Goku had surpassed SSG while he was in his SSJ form. The most obvious case is when Goku adapts to SSG, and Beerus compliments Goku on being such a fighting genius and simply learning from the experience and retaining the power, this is all done as a natural progression of the fight, and it's pretty clear. However, the final sequence is different.

You can't call it a rage boost when there is no rage involved. Like there's not a single moment in their fight where Goku is literally enraged. Because there wasn't anything to rage about. Gohan was enraged against Raditz and Cell, clearly. Goku was against Freeza, Vegeta against Beerus. None of your examples are related to Goku's situation. Beerus asking him about his limits and Goku replying "Not yet, shut up" and then later respectfully telling him that just because he's a god he can't decide people's limits, isn't a rage moment at all, nor a reason for Goku to rage out. Goku finding out that his family was killed by Zamasu, that was a rage moment and a proper reason to rage out. You can't call a random moment of power up a rage moment just because he was struggling and/or screaming.
Huh? The portrayal of this scene is identical to the way that previous rage sequences are presented. Comparing it to previous rage boosts:

Gohan: Screams "STOP HURTING MY DAD!" and then bursts through the ship and headbutts Raditz, enraged that Raditz was beating the shit out of his dad.


Vegeta: Screams "THAT'S MY BULMA!" and then powers-up showing an unrivaled onslaught against Beerus, enraged that Beerus had slapped his wife.


Goku: Screams "SHUT UP! SHUT UP!" and punches Beerus's SoD, destroying it, enraged that Beerus had "decided" his limits.

Which one of these is not like the other? None. This scene is completely indistinguishable from previous rage boosts in their presentation. Goku is doing absolutely nothing, struggling against the SoD, and then Beerus makes a comment about Goku being at his limit, and he immediately holds back the SoD, starts screaming for Beerus to shut up, and then punches the SoD out of existence. Then he lectures Beerus about deciding other people's limits. He was able to destroy the SoD as a direct response to Beerus's comment that pissed him off. I don't know how it could really be seen as anything other than a rage boost. And rage boosts have literally always been temporary; they go into a tirade above their previous limitations, and then go back to normal.

And with all the given context and build up of the fight, it is pretty reasonable for it's culmination to be a proper limit-breaking moment for Goku. Also Goten and Gohan are clearly able to see the fight. Saiyans can see over very long distances, that's been estalished since the beginning of DB. And Vegeta was able to see just fine. Just look at their hand gestures and facial expressions, Goten is covering his eyes to block the sun and they are both looking upwards, none of these you do if you just have to "feel" a fight. They concentrate and generally close their eyes to feel a fight as shown in the Buu saga, they don't need to look above and block the sunlight. But they are not able to see Goku and Freeza.
I mean, from what I recall Vegeta was the only one that was actually able to see the fight. But that's not really the point. The characters being able to see characters means nothing given how incredibly inconsistent it is. The peanut gallery was watching SSJ2 Trunks vs SSJ2 Goku and nobody, including BULMA expressed any issue watching them. During the Cell Games, people are having trouble seeing Goku vs Cell iirc, and then any difficulty is never expressed again. During the ToP the ONLY time that somebody ever expressed an issues watching the fighters was when Zeno was having trouble seeing Super Speed Dyspo. By your logic:

RoF Base Goku/Final Freeza>>SSJ2 Trunks, SSJ2 Goku, the entire ToP's fighters, all of the U6 fights, etc etc.

Later, they make it a point that Goku had "evolved and surpassed" the level of gods in that fight. If his ssj1 was only as strong as the SSG like you're claiming to be, he would be at the same level as gods during that fight, he wouldn't have "surpassed" it. The fact that they say he surpassed the level of gods by "evolving" during that fight is clearly referring to the limit breaking of Goku. Rage boost =/= evolving.
I think you may be misinterpreting my argument, because this isn't really an accurate characterization.

I never claimed that Goku did not grow during the fight. That is plainly evident, even stated several times. And when I claimed that when Goku dropped out of SSG, his SSJ was equal to it, that's not even really a claim it's just a fact. Goku and Beerus both explicitly agreed that was the case, in addition to that clearly being shown following it. However, his SSJ became stronger throughout the fight, and the narrator and episode title state that he had surpassed SSG. As the fight progressed his SSJ got stronger, I never disputed that, you seem to be suggesting that I did dispute that. To reiterate during BoG:

Base Goku(limits broken/rage boosted)>final SSJ(post-ritual)>initial SSJ(post ritual)=SSG>final Base Goku(post-ritual)>>>>>>>SSJ3 Goku(pre-ritual)

 

[A_Stoned_Orc]

So, I'd like to go ahead and reiterate that the moment Goku dropped SSG, he was still fighting on par with Beerus, as if SSG hadn't dropped. There's a whole fight sequence before Goku instinctively goes SSJ post-SSG,, where Goku not only blocks and dodges blows from Beerus, but takes hits and dishes them out in return, with no apparent drop in potency despite SSG having "worn off", and without using Super Saiyan transformations.

 

[Eminiteable]

Not followed up on the whole discussion going on but Jiren's statement Vs Brolys definitely holds more weight and I agree with Argo's argument given the context. I agree Jiren should scale above Beerus as the reasoning is sound.

 

[PFM18]

So, I'd like to go ahead and reiterate that the moment Goku dropped SSG, he was still fighting on par with Beerus, as if SSG hadn't dropped. There's a whole fight sequence before Goku instinctively goes SSJ post-SSG,, where Goku not only blocks and dodges blows from Beerus, but takes hits and dishes them out in return, with no apparent drop in potency despite SSG having "worn off", and without using Super Saiyan transformations.

Yes. This is true. Hence why I said that SSJ=SSG when he dropped out isn't a claim its just a fact. And obviously Goku got stronger from there.

 

[Ovrhide]

I dont think Jirens statement hold any more weight over brolys. but i do think that everything points to broly and jiren being god damn close in power. they are both antagonists that are beerus level at minimum, and nothing much can be said besides that. one of them has the edge in terms of skills, while the other can adapt at far better rate than any other saiyan.