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Dragon Ball Super Discussion Thread 79

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Yeah, Vegito got shafted - shame because he's the cooler fusion.

Well the manga did him better do there's that
 
Tipper17 said:
Neither ssjbe nor ssjb kk were worth shit to the story only hype moments.

Ssjb kk was nothing but nostalgia luv and fan service while ssjbe was nothing but a pity form to give to vegeta cause they made the gap between goku and him pretty ******* big.
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I laughed at this more than I should lol.
 
I laughed at this more than I should lol.

Kek but it is true tho. The form was cause they had realized lil veggie had nothing to counter kaioken so they gave him ascended ssj with sparkles and deep blue hair dye plus big ass eyes.
 
The form was a meme on 4chan for a while with them calling the form SS Kawaii because he had a big sparky eyes like anime girls lmao.
 
ZERO7772 said:
The form was a meme on 4chan for a while with them calling the form SS Kawaii because he had a big sparky eyes like anime girls lmao.
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Same on Narutoforums Toei trying to make the form unique while reality made it look ridiculous
 
ZERO7772 said:
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worthless to the plot =/= power scaling

Helping the character =/= power scaling

only serving to make a character relevant =/= power scaling.

Doing something or not =/= power scaling

Litteraly the only impact Kaioken had on power scailing is making Goku superior to his SSJB form by the number in the name, you can't make more basic in term of power scailing.

for something that isn't rocket science, you sure seems to have trouble understand what power scailing is, if it doesn't directly concern A < B, it isn't power scailing.

I mean, hard to blame those defending power scailing when none of the 'issue' you brough up have ANYTHING to do with actual power scailing, all your complaint are not only just about the plot, half of them are actualy directly addressed in-universe and the other half are not objective issue.
 
Toei's poor writing = amguish power scaling and consists rectons. What is so hard to understand about this? Scaling is not just A > A its also about how they stack to each other.

Yeah I got drifted away by complaining about writing but DBS DOES have shitty power scaling when character statements, narrator, and magazine hype conflict with each other. DBS having multiple writers doesn't help the issue either.
 
ZERO7772 said:
Toei's poor writing = amguish power scaling and consists rectons. What is so hard to understand about this? Scaling is not just A > A its also about how they stack to each other.
Yeah I got drifted away by complaining about writing but DBS DOES have shitty power scaling when character statements, narrator, and magazine hype conflict with each other. DBS having multiple writers doesn't help the issue either.
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I don't see how the scailing is ambiguous when one of the 'probleme' you mentionned litteraly tell you how much stronger it make someone.

Yes and none of the probleme you brough up had anything to do with that either.

Magazine doesn't count since those guys don't even work on the anime (and even then all they did is say that Gogeta was stronger than Vegito and that Broly was the strongest) but character statement and narrator statement haven't been an issue.
 
Magazines does count and people clearly use it in debate along with with other forms of media. You are not one to decided what count and what does not.

There is issues like when Whiss saying Jiren is beyond GoD level at 1% of his power when it's clearly not the case. Goku saying Broly is stronger than Beerus despite having no idea about his full power. Whiss saying that SSB Goku and Vegeta pose a threat to Beerus despite this clearly not being the case. Or shin saying in the manga that Vegito is stronger than Beerus but then Toyotarou is like, Eh? Maybe?

If that's all not power scaling then please explain to me example of power scaling then. Is it just Zeno > angels > Gods > rest?
 
ZERO7772 said:
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That's like saying forum counts, the manga and anime staff aren't responsible for an independent magazine's bulshit.

We actualy don't get such numbers, Whis could easily be seeing how much power Jiren is hiding and nothing actualy indicate 'it's clearly not the case' either given how ludicrous form multiplier always were in DB, Goku at full power in base form is less than 1% of his SSJ2 form after all, Freezer in his first form is like 0.5% of his full power etc.

Goku said 'might' and is an expert fighter, he should have an inkling and even then it was hypothetical, it's not because i say 'you might be able to lift a ton !' that it mean anything even if i'm right, it just mean i made an educated guesse while never having lifted a ton myself.

Whis never actualy said that outside the movies.

Because the manga sucks and Shin doesn't know shit in it (especialy in an arc where Gods are shown as flawed, it was kinda the whole point), did he even know Beerus before BOG ?

Good that you noticed it wasn't power scailing, it was just complaint about how you didn't want those characters to rank where DB put them.

Power scailing is litteraly just A < B and that kind of stuff so unless A is supposed to be < B but then he is suddenly vastly stronger with nothing having changed, then power scailing is ******, otherwise it's not a probleme with power scailing, at best it's a probleme with the characters and your view of their power.

For exemple the biggest probleme in term of power scailing would be Dyspo but even that is mitigated because there is an universe reason, the whole 'no kill' and the whole 'need to conserve stamina' deal, it might not be satisfactory to you on a plot level but it work in term of power scailing.

I'm not saying there is no issue, i'm just saying people aren't pointing the corrects ones and sometime point at stuff completly unrelated.
 
...so he has more shit tastes...Warren you have shit taste for having so many shit tastes
 
Yeah.

Let's go back to that.

What's wrong with that 90s feel? If anything I prefer the feel of 90s anime to modern anime. Feels less generic.
 
Imo modern anime feeling generic depends on what you're including when you say modern anime. Like, there are genres that are being spammed (isekai) but there are quite a few that have a unique feel to them.
 
The real cal howard said:
Eh, I don't really want Beerus to be surpassed. See, I find power caps to be more interesting than power creeps, as the latter can get to a ridiculous level and make certain things irrelevant. Once Beerus is surpassed, he's going to be useless. Just like everyone else before him. It's also why I like MHA so much. The ceiling is All Might and will always be All Might.
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i heard this in a youtube video........i think mothers basment but i can be wrong
 
I agree that hard caps are always more interesting. Dragon Ball used to actually be about skill (to a degree) and I really miss those days. Ki has endless potential for hax and interesting action scenes but it always reverts to spamming ki blasts, clashing energy waves and repeating the exact same three or four frames of trading blows.
 
So I had an interesting question to ask.

What are people's thoughts about the current manga arc, now that it's ahead of the anime?
 
What do you guys think the first (ignoring any possible remakes of the Broly movie into an arc) arc of the 2uper anime will be?

Personally, I'm hoping they don't start off with that "The wish brought back the universes that Zeno erased pre ToP" and we start with an arc with less tension. A Vegeta/Saiyan heritage arc would be nice where he goes to Planet Sadala.
 
I'm...iffy on it. At first I was enjoying the direction it was going but...now? It seems like the Moro arc is just generic. I'm holding out hopes for Moro's third wish but if Toyo botches it I'm going to end up dismissing it as the worst arc of Dragon Ball (anime fillers/Superhuman Water arc not included) due to sheer mediocrity.

I was honestly hoping we would go into more multiversal stuff and that Frieza would be an active player that acted as a catalyst for many of the conflicts of the story. Some sort of continual structure like Saiyan saga > Namek saga > Frieza saga or Android saga > Cell saga was.
 
oh wow me and akm asked discussion invoking questions at the same time


Anyways, I'm liking the Moro arc so far(ignoring dumb oxygen needing universe busters) and I'm curious to see what his third wish was.
 
Same for me, it started out good, but lost its grip midway. I now find it to be boring. Hoping that his third wish brings something new to the fold.
 
Average Joe: Doesn't want to see Beerus surpassed and Power creeps

~ Xenoverse Be Like: We got something to tell you... (Beerus was surpassed since DLC Pack 8, Tokipedia, and it's equivalent of the Post-ToP shenanigans ... and Power creeps between the Arcs is atrocious to the point of insanity)

The powercreep in XV2 is ridiculous. Goku surpassed Beerus in Base (overwhelmed the Future Warrior who fought someone who viewed the likes of FP Beerus and Champa as literal Ants and even before then was viewed as an equal by Beerus in said arc) , then went Ultra Instinct after breaking his limits completely as a SSB. Fu is superior to that Ultra Instinct, and was stomped by.... Post-Tournament of Power SSJ1 Kefla....

And also the fact that the scaling for Xenoverse 2 between Arcs is even worse.... Goku went from SSB RoF [SSB has a similar multiplier to SSJ4 in Xenoverse due to it being constantly compared to SSB] to far above that level before the U6 Tournament... In his Base. He literally deflected an attack with a kiai intended on killing the Future Warrior, who at that point surpassed Mira who surpassed said Amped Golden Frieza. Then Base Cabba has a statement of being superior to Final Form Mira... And it goes on.
 
DragonEmperor23 said:
Personally, I'm hoping they don't start off with that "The wish brought back the universes that Zeno erased pre ToP" and we start with an arc with less tension. A Vegeta/Saiyan heritage arc would be nice where he goes to Planet Sadala.
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A Sadala arc should definitely happen. They've been teasing it for years.

But I do want tension like it was in DBZ. They should find a way to take the angels and above out of the story and have someone kill Beerus and most GoDs. An inter-universe war with Hit, Jiren and other GoDs all at the same time would be cool to see (no, not like the one in SDBH anime).
 
It's not that I don't want there to be tension, but I want them to build it up. Like, maybe for the first arc or two we get occasional scenes for things going on in the pre ToP universes. Little glimpses to keep our interests peaked. With the stuff in the background slowly becoming more prevalent as time goes on. Like, maybe in the third arc, we could have the Angels and GoDs have to leave their universes and go to Zeno like how they did in SBDH.
 
I don't understand why Dragon Ball suffers so much with its inconsistent and insane power scaling. It's almost as if Toei (and to a degree, Toyo) have no idea how basic arithmetic works.

I don't recall Toriyama ever having these utterly insane power scaling issues, outside of maybe Vegeta one-shotting Dodoria? I don't recall if he specified the power levels of Vegeta and Dodoria in that instance though.

Like, you have Toei having base Gohan one-shot final form Frieza, after Frieza was dead for a decade. That might not be bad, if not for the fact that GT (an anime that THEY wrote) has Base Goku effortlessly beat Cell and Frieza, who stated that they grew 'thousands' of timess tronger, meaning that in their interpretation Frieza DID train while he was dead. Not to mention Cell has every advantage of Saiyan physiology but apparently can't keep up, despite having all of the resources in Hell...

Toyo has his own damned issues like SS Black going against SSB Vegeta so it's not purely Toei that's screwing it. Hell, I'd argue Toyo is even worse considering how he basically shafts everyone that doesn't have a big strong power and defecates on any skill-based characters like Hit.
 
Talking about powerscaling...

Do you guys ever think Base Goku surprassed Full Power Freezer? Before the god ki.
 
Nah I doubt it. Beerus himself claimed that he couldn't picture Goku defeating Frieza in his base form and we know Frieza and Beerus have some sort of intimate past. Toriyama himself stated that Beerus and Frieza used to be friends that had a 'falling out'.
 
Beerus didn't even know Goku back then and entirely based his answer on appareance, i don't see how anyone could seriously think Goku didn't even become 50 time stronger in the entirety of DBZ, that's just nonsense, hell, Beerus expressed doubt about Goku beating Freezer at all so i guesse Freezer one shot SSJ3 Goku.

Also source for the Toriyama thing ? cause i'v never heard of that.
 
Beerus is a god, trained by Whis, who has been a god for at least 65 million years. Goku, Vegeta, Frieza and numerous other characters can consistently tell when a character is holding back, when they have potential for insane growth, etc. So I doubt Beerus would be so amateurish that he wouldn't notice Goku restraining or be able to read Goku's body.

I also don't see your argument, honestly. Most of the power development in the Cell saga was all about mastering and evolving Super Saiyan. Even in the Buu saga we had characters relying on Fusion, SS3 and the Elder Kai ritual rather than actually training and growing properly. Hell, Gohan's training was all about getting and mastering Super Saiyan in the Cell saga.

Thisis the source.

Akira Toriyama's Inside Story: What's the relationship between Beerus and Freeza?

Even Freeza is no match for the God of Destruction Beerus, no matter what he does! Since they both destroy stuff, they got along reasonably well, but one time Freeza had his clock cleaned when he got carried away and made Beerus angry.
 
The 2nd Existential Seed said:
Average Joe: Doesn't want to see Beerus surpassed and Power creeps

~ Xenoverse Be Like: We got something to tell you... (Beerus was surpassed since DLC Pack 8, Tokipedia, and it's equivalent of the Post-ToP shenanigans ... and Power creeps between the Arcs is atrocious to the point of insanity)

The powercreep in XV2 is ridiculous. Goku surpassed Beerus in Base (overwhelmed the Future Warrior who fought someone who viewed the likes of FP Beerus and Champa as literal Ants and even before then was viewed as an equal by Beerus in said arc) , then went Ultra Instinct after breaking his limits completely as a SSB. Fu is superior to that Ultra Instinct, and was stomped by.... Post-Tournament of Power SSJ1 Kefla....

And also the fact that the scaling for Xenoverse 2 between Arcs is even worse.... Goku went from SSB RoF [SSB has a similar multiplier to SSJ4 in Xenoverse due to it being constantly compared to SSB] to far above that level before the U6 Tournament... In his Base. He literally deflected an attack with a kiai intended on killing the Future Warrior, who at that point surpassed Mira who surpassed said Amped Golden Frieza. Then Base Cabba has a statement of being superior to Final Form Mira... And it goes on.
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I don't believe any of that and I'm gonna need proof of that
 
CryoTheMayo said:
Beerus is a god, trained by Whis, who has been a god for at least 65 million years. Goku, Vegeta, Frieza and numerous other characters can consistently tell when a character is holding back, when they have potential for insane growth, etc. So I doubt Beerus would be so amateurish that he wouldn't notice Goku restraining or be able to read Goku's body.
I also don't see your argument, honestly. Most of the power development in the Cell saga was all about mastering and evolving Super Saiyan. Even in the Buu saga we had characters relying on Fusion, SS3 and the Elder Kai ritual rather than actually training and growing properly. Hell, Gohan's training was all about getting and mastering Super Saiyan in the Cell saga.

Thisis the source.

Akira Toriyama's Inside Story: What's the relationship between Beerus and Freeza?

Even Freeza is no match for the God of Destruction Beerus, no matter what he does! Since they both destroy stuff, they got along reasonably well, but one time Freeza had his clock cleaned when he got carried away and made Beerus angry.
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That doesn't give Beerus the ability to jauge someone's power by seeing an image of them, especialy when it contradict what is said and shown and no, none of them ever just guessed that someone was holding back without even seeing them fight.

Evolving Super saiyan to make it easier to use while training to be stronger, it's still about getting stronger, also SSJ is just a multipler, if you get stronger in one form, you get stronger in all form.

Elder Kaioshin turn your max power into your base form and SSJ3 came from training to get stronger, also it had a fixed power boost that was never improved so i guesse SSJ3 Goku is just 400 times planete buster and is weaker than Cell, also fusion was a crapshoot, see how Goten and Trunks ended up.

Litteraly none of your argument actualy point toward them just not getting stronger in general, especialy when it's made clear that they did.
 
That doesn't give Beerus the ability to jauge someone's power by seeing an image of them, especialy when it contradict what is said and shown and no, none of them ever just guessed that someone was holding back without even seeing them fight.

Yeah, it does. He is physically looking over Goku's entire body and has access to a life force sensing omnidirectional universe-ranged sixth sense that can tell him how strong Goku is. What exactly is contradicted or 'shown' that would argue against Beerus? And yes, they did. I'm not bothering to look up examples, due to being midnight here, but there are numerous examples of characters knowing somebody is suppressing heavily or whether they have notable potential.

Evolving Super saiyan to make it easier to use while training to be stronger, it's still about getting stronger.

Nope. Toriyama himself has stated that Super Saiyan grows stronger as you master it, to the point that it can become stronger than its enhancements, Super Saiyan 2 and 3. There is also no actual reason for Goku, Gohan, Trunks and Vegeta to grow so powerful when they aren't using gravity training, getting zenkai boosts or are being trained by a master.

You are effectively claiming Vegeta was growing multiple times stronger solo when he couldn't do so for decades beforehand and when Goku only grew so strong so fast due to King Kai training, 100x gravity training and Zenkai boosting. None of which would be notably abused without senzu beans or regenerator pods.

Vegeta and Trunks trained practically by themselves in the Time Chamber. Goku spent his entire time just raising Gohan up. All of them focused, to some degree, on mastering or pushing Super Saiyan further. At no point are we given a reason to believe their base forms grew to any degree of absurdity like the Saiyan and Namek sagas.

Elder Kaioshin turn your max power into your base form

You mean your latent potential?

and SSJ3 came from training to get stronger,

Literally no evidence.

SJ3 Goku is just 400 times planete buster and is weaker than Cell,

No. Not even remotely. Frieza's true form is Small Star-level and his first form alone is Dwarf Star-level. To add further, Daizenshuu multipliers have no basis in canon. Super Saiyan 2, for example, is almost certainly far stronger than simply 2x Super Saiyan.

also fusion was a crapshoot, see how Goten and Trunks ended up.

Vegito. Also Gotenks was the only thing that could fight Buu other than SS3 Goku, Vegito and Mystic Gohan so I'm not sure what you are trying to argue there.

Litteraly none of your argument actualy point toward them just not getting stronger in general, especialy when it's made clear that they did.

You're right. It doesn't. It argues that Goku didn't grow 50x stronger after the Frieza saga due to Beerus, a millions year old god of martial arts stating as such and the fact that Goku didn't undergo even remotely close to the level of training or difficulty he underwent in the Saiyan and Namek sagas. He was absent for most of the Android saga and all of the saiyans focused almost entirely on training their Super Saiyan forms. Buu saga was a seven year gap with Goku's training being a complete unknown but the manga lacks fighters like Pikkon so we have no reason to think he had any decent rivals in Heaven.

Hell, if we use Daizenshuu multipliers? Goku and Vegeta only grew like 2-3x stronger in seven years lmao.

All of the growth in the Saiyan and Namek sagas were motivated purely by Zenkais, Gravity training and King Kai training. Most of these were completely absent in the sagas going forward. At most? We have Vegeta training at 500x gravity in the Buu saga...which is only 5x the gravity that Goku mastered in the Namek saga.
 
@Tipper Feel free to disagree as of right now... As I know on paper it sounds ridiculous. I am working on a blog to discuss the powerscaling because some implications hints the 2-B Scaling starts even lower than the Battle of Gods Arc due to some DLC quotes and decisions (Such as in XV involving Broly and stuff).. But I'm going to go over all of that soon after the other DLCs come out to make sure I'm not missing anything.
 
No, it doesn't, he vaguely looked at Goku who was just chilling through Whis's staff while taking a bath and vaguely expressed doubt, nothing else, trying to act like Beerus analysed every facet of Goku's being and declared 'Goku's base form is inferior to Freezer' is just ridiculous and not supported at all by the show.

Except it didn't happen before DBS, try again and even if that was right, trying to argue that SSJ's multiplier is in the millions is ridiculous and absolutly not supported by anything.

They were the masters, we see they are all using gravity training and pretty much any training session that Vegeta had end up with a zenkai since he litteraly torture himself.

Vegeta reached SSJ solo and only ever train solo outside of Whis, the only 'decade' where he didn't grow stronger solo was before the Saiyan saga and it's because he didn't have anyone actualy challenging him.

It's funny how you have to try and say 'if we ignore 1/3 of franchise, my argument has a leg to stand on !', that should tell you how nonsensical it is.

Litteraly no evidence except the obvious, i guesse Goku was training to become a farmer and just gained his form with a 9830992784094 times multiplier.

The Daizenshuu have the author's approval, that already make them much more routed in canon than your nonsense about SSJ being a 3 billion time multiplier while ignoring the saiyan saga and namek saga exist.

It's not a 2 times multiplier based on what ? on your nonsensical 'SSJ2 must be 12 billion time multiplier !' ?

And Vegito won how many fights ? 0

So it argue something that was never even hinted at in the actual franchise ? cool that we agree then, because Beerus never said to Goku 'hey, your base form never got 50 time stronger after beating Freezer !', using your standard, Goku didn't beat Freezer, since Beerus vaguely doubted it, after all, he is a million year old god, he can tell about Goku's other form, so obviously, Freezer one shot SSJ3 and Goku never beat him.

Yeah, they totaly only trained their saiyans form while training for 3 years to prepare to face a bunch of cyborgs even stronger than Freezer who killed them in another universe, Gohan trained his SSJ form so hard, he didn't even have one at the start of the arc.

Nothing say that in the daizenshuu, try again and it's still better than 'lulz, Goku never got stronker, he just got dat 6501 trillion form multiplier ! every official source saying those are hundreds time multipler at best are wrong!'

No, they weren't, unless we're gonna ignore all the training done in the spaceship.

The gravity itself isn't the training method, the gravity is just there to make whatever training method you use more effective, try again.

Seriously, it's the 'Toppo hakai the whole DB verse !!!!!' nonsense all over again.
 
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