Dragon Ball Super Discussion Thread 65: Because we still got the manga, the movie and the dub to discuss!

[HST_Master]

New DBS manga chapter out errbody

 

[Ryukama]

The Virgin Toyotaro

The Chad Murata

 

[AKM sama]

I didn't know Toyo reads western comics

 

[Ryukama]

He not only reads western comics he traces them too 0v0

 

[AKM sama]

It's not traced tho, he used it as a reference. It's definitely an homage.

 

[Ryukama]

https://twitter.com/AnimeAjay/status/998930489804238848

 

[AKM sama]

That doesn't make sense. Why would he trace a certain part of the body and draw the rest by himself? It could also be a coincidence that a certain part of the body exactly matches, he could just be that good at copying.

Anyway, I don't care if he traced it or referenced it. There is no way of finding out until Toyo himself says something.

 

[Ryukama]

He obviously has to change it up somewhat since Goku and Captain America have totally different designs, but he still took a shortcut by tracing certain parts. Also pretty much no one, not even guys like MaSTAR, will trace literally everything directly 100% and not draw anything of their own.

The body and the hand (when it's not rotated) are exact, perfect 1:1 matches. It's very unlikely just a flawless copy. No one's just that good or coincidentally makes things match up to such a precise degree simply by looking and drawing it on their own.

AnimeAjay goes more into depth about all of this here.

As does ZeeHallums

 

[Ovrhide]

Hell probably just get a slap on the wrist for this. I doubt he is going to get fired because of it. Tho im glad that it was just the sketch that he traced, and not the end result (Vjump cover). It would be bad taste for vjump to have cover that was traced.

 

[Ryukama]

I don't want Toyotaro fired. I'm just making fun of how in the same week this controversy is happening, Murata comes out with those absolutely incredible panels.

 

[Ovrhide]

I don't want Toyotaro fired. I'm just making fun of how in the same week this controversy is happening, Murata comes out with those absolutely incredible panels.

Oh yeah, i saw that, beautiful art in all honesty. Extremely detailed as well. But that is what you expect out of murata. Btw, the manga chapter was LIT.

As for toyo, he is a young artist (i assume). He has a huge gap for improvement and im sure hell learn to stop relying on tracing.

 

[Ryukama]

@Ovrhide Couldn't agree more.

 

[MeleeniumRXJ]

No one's just that good or coincidentally makes things match up to such a precise degree simply by looking and drawing it on their own.

I believe there are people who are that good at copying. I can almost do it. That said, it's not necessary unless you're doing it as an exercise. So it's most likely a trace.

 

[Ryukama]

Perfect 1:1 match up with no differences from nothing but reference, I highly doubt it.

I agree either way it's most likely traced though.

 

[Quantu]

Toyo should use this negative experience as a thing to reflect on for his long term career.

This could be a positive thing as it is better to make mistakes when you are young (I assume he is aswell) and learn from them than make the same mistakes when you are older.

... Or he is a god and can copy pictures perfectly lol.

 

[Ryukama]

Yeah I agree with Quantu. Anyways my point's not that Toyotaro is a scumbag, a terrible person or deserves to lose his career like many other people have said on this topic. I'm just roasting how he had to trace a basic Captain America pose yet Murata can make those masterpieces from scratch. Just a joke bro ovo

 

[MeleeniumRXJ]

Perfect 1:1 match up with no differences from nothing but reference, I highly doubt it.
I agree either way it's most likely traced though.

Many of the art classes I took had us do rigorous exercises over an over to copy something perfectly. So artists do train to do it so they have a keen sense of space and proportions.

I was able to do this, and this was 10 years ago when I wasn't even that good at drawing.

https://orig00.deviantart.net/2f84/f/2012/176/b/0/leona_heidern_re_upload_by_melee818-d411kjw.png

http://metalslug.wikia.com/wiki/File:Leona-MI2.jpg

And that's an attempt to try and copy everying including the clothes and hair, as opposed to just copying the pose. I could have easily changed the character to be someone else and just use the stance.

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

Kale and Caulifilia were stated explicitly by the staff to have limitless potential...

Gets ready for something like this to happen in the new series: https://i.pinimg.com/originals/09/f8/6d/09f86de7d2af6dba6f9ea278c3bf763d.jpg

 

[MeleeniumRXJ]

Kale and Caulifilia were stated explicitly by the staff to have limitless potential...

Where did they say that?

 

[Ryukama]

I know how intricately people can reference, but literal perfection is just very implausible. And when you have numerous professional and well educated artists come out and say that it's traced, on top of the fact that you can precisely match it up 1:1, it's almost not even really a question tbh.

 

[MeleeniumRXJ]

I know how intricately people can reference, but literal perfection is just very implausible. And when you have numerous professional and well educated artists come out and say that it's traced, on top of the fact that you can precisely match it up 1:1, it's almost not even really a question tbh.

They're saying it's traced because a professional using a reference on the job wouldn't have it precisely 1:1, because it's not necessary to be that accurate, as long as the pose looks good. But if someone is trying to do a perfect copy just for the sake of it (as a challenge or an exercise), then you're more likely to see it. It's just no one is gonna put in that much effort on the job. That's why Toyotaro's in particular is probably a trace.

 

[Ryukama]

I'd highly doubt that even intentionally trying to copy it would give you literal perfection, as do the other artists I cited and many more. Yeah you can get insanely close but someone to be 100% flawless isn't likely at all.

 

[MeleeniumRXJ]

Well even Toyotaro's trace isn't 100% perfect. You can still spot differences, and the different clothing makes it harder to tell.

 

[Ryukama]

The body and the hand are pretty much 1:1. Of course the entire thing isn't traced though.

Either way I agree it's most likely traced. I'm not going to bash Toyotaro for this but I do think it's highly unprofessional and he should take all this lampooning as a positive and change for the better.

Murata will always be >>>>>>>> him though OvO

 

[AKM sama]

Can't say for the hand but the body is really easy to copy as it is.

 

[MeleeniumRXJ]

I mean even the parts that are traced have differences since he probably only traced the general pose. But that's the thing. You can get a general pose to be near 1:1 without tracing. There's techniques behind doing it like drawing the negative space, as well as drawing extremely lightly so you can make corrections as you go along (on top of that, you can just do mulitple drawings until it's perfect.

I just overlaid my Leona drawing over the original, and some parts match. And I know I didn't trace it.

 

[Xantospoc]

It's DEFINITIVELY traced. Toyotaro does it often in the manga (see: 50% of the Future Trunks Saga)

However, Murata will be even below the guy who draws Shin-chan because he chose to draw the dumpster of incompetent writing that is OPM.

 

[ZERO7772]

Honestly I always though he was just making reference to his old AF manga and the original DB manga

 

[Ovrhide]

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=30781&start=24400

Hey guys, im sure you are aware of kanzenshuu, and in the power scaling forum, a recent debate has gone out about beerus vs LB jiren and UI goku. In short, theres people who just dont accept any sources outside of the anime itself, so apperantly when debating they dont want to use the promo about 129 Goku ~ or > Beerus. I would recomend to take a look at it just to see their arguments.

I believe that while its true that you cant always rely on secondary source, its also true that it can be reliable when the show itself is hinting that UI goku has achieved a state that no god of destruction has.

So i would like peoples opinion on this subject. Im on the side that jiren was at least as strong as beerus even before he broke his limits.

Btw, im the user with the same avatar

 

[ZERO7772]

Magazine and spoilers are not the most trust worthy source to go by yeah, but it's something to go by if it's not oppose anything in the anime.

I still think Jiren was around Beerus's level before he broke his limit as well

 

[Ovrhide]

Magazine and spoilers are not the most trust worthy source to go by yeah, but it's something to go by if it's not oppose anything in the anime.

I still think Jiren was around Beerus's level before he broke his limit as well

So what do you think about the arguments people made in the forum. I believe that they are very bias, in the way that one of them thinks that until proven otherwise, beerus remains the stronger of the bunch, which i think its a bit too close minded, and kinda bad logic.

 

[ZERO7772]

You can't really prove Jiren being above Beerus outside of magazine and spoilers scans, you can say they are above belmod sure but other GoDs are still out there and DBS REALLY loves to wank Beerus with all the wank he got, like really we all agree Goku should have surpassed Beerus ever since U6 tournament but the shows kept making above Goku.

 

[Ryukama]

Official statements made with nothing in the series contradicting them should be viable enough. But if someone refuses to accept anything but what's in the anime, there won't be too much explicit evidence of either being above the other.

 

[Ovrhide]

THO you also cant prove beerus is above jiren and goku, as any source available is stacked against beerus. So onviously the "stronger until proven weaker" towards beerus is just flawed logic.

 

[Ryukama]

These official statements, and the arc's entire theme of surpassing gods, is obviously being done for a reason. I highly doubt the intent is for these characters to have stayed weaker than Beerus. I'd say Jiren's stronger than Beerus until proven otherwise, but if only an explicit statement in the actual anime is counted then I guess it's the other way around.

 

[ZERO7772]

Dude you will never get anything if you wait for the anime to tell who is above who and explain things for you, you will need to work your way around it sadly, hence why DBS is so shitty in power scalling and explaining things

Either way while you can Prove Goku is above Beerus there's nothing support Beerus as evidence. everything is stacked against him

 

[Ovrhide]

How about the manga? If the manga does go out of its way to state that jiren or Ui goku > beerus, would it apply to the anime? I mean, that is a very, very important key info for it to just only apply to the manga.

 

[ZERO7772]

No it's won apply because they are different canon, Vegito is above Beerus in the manga but he's ******* fodder in the anime although I am pretty sure the manga will explain where Jiren stand in comparison to Beerus

Again other official statements are fine to go by as long they don't contradict anything in the main canon and other every other side source tell you Goku beat any God

The freaking "ultimate battle" lyrics says that GoD can't win against Goku lol

 

[Ovrhide]

Now that im thinking about it, its kinda sad that jiren only has power going for him when it comes to character. Dont get me wrong, i love his character in 130 and 131, cause it shows that they were trying to do something great during those episodes with him, but my god was anything before that bland as hell with him. If it wasnt for his strength, he probably would have been a very hated character. O think if they try, they can probably redeem him down the line by actually developing him, character wise. Have a mini arc revolving around him and this supposedly evil doer that killed his parents. Its definitely something ill want to see.

 

[ZERO7772]

Well yeah everyone knows Jiren was shitty character overall and it's not until ep 131 anyone actually cared for his character beside his power, they turned him from super hero into f*cking asshole for Goku to kick his ass

It would been great if they gave him 1-2 episodes that talk about his story but with DB you can't expect anything more

Yah I would totally agree for mini-arc about Jiren after ToP arc where we learn more about him and see him take down the evildoer who killed his family "El hermano"